So far, the only evidence that anyone has provided on gar populations is the estimated 3.5% harvest. I feel like we have made valid arguments on Wanton Waste, and nobody is denying it. There are even people on here that claim to have not known that wanton waste was against the law in Texas. Due to this, and people that harvest over their limit, we don't know the actual harvest rate. Did you know that of the 170 surveys handed out WITH return postage stamped envelopes, only 15 were returned? They then went to the forums and were able to get another 90-something. That is a very, very small percentage of the actual bowhunters in the state. Not to mention people that travel from all over the world to come hunt Gar. It is gaining popularity, and with that popularity there has to be more stringent regulation.

This is NOT in reference to you, Texas Two Guns, but how are we supposed to take people seriously that can't even take the time to read the bowhunting laws and follow them? They are not written in a matter difficult to understand. There are no grey areas.



I personally think y'all would be shooting yourselves in the foot if you didn't come up with an alternate proposal. It would show that you are conservationists that care about our populations as well. We know from past experience that something WILL most likely be done. If y'all want to have control over the matter, then propose something that benefits the gar population that also benefits your hobby in the long run. I agree that the way the proposal is worded is extremely vague, but the reason they are doing a public survey is because they have decided they are going to do something and need input and ideas on what to do.

The questions is...should we have to prove that the population is declining before we do something, or should we have to prove that the population is sustaining in order to not do anything? It goes both ways. Conservationists are on one side of the coin, and harvesters are on the other. Let's just all pick meetings to go to, voice our research and opinions, and hope we don't get our butts whooped in the parking lot after it's over.

Slimjim... that law has only been in the books for a few years, as it pertains to rough fish and bait fish and Yes, we the hard core bow fishermen have tried to educate other bow fishermen in regard to proper disposal. As in all sports, there are some that do not respect any thing and think they can just dump there fish any where. Unfortunately, this happens all over the country. We do not condone this and many of us have gone in behind such people and cleaned up the area.

I hosted almost 40 bow fishing tournaments over the last few years and all of them had fish disposal included. Most rough fish were taken by commercial fisherman and trot liners for bait. Some were retrieved by a turtle farm for food and a couple loads went to a big cat rescue farm.
Very few Gator Gar were taken at the tournaments and those that were taken were eaten.

Yes, there are "Slobs" in any sport, but we do try to educate them. Please refrain from grouping "all bow fishermen" into that group!

You mentioned that very few replies were returned from the angler survey. The one I got asked for a return if I had taken any Alligator gar in the last year. I had not. Since a very few bow fishermen actually "take" an alligator gar, I am not surprised that there were few returned. All the organized bow fishing groups in Texas and all of the guides I know of, worked closely with TP&W biologists during the surveys over the last few years. We supplied many of the "otoliths" used in the aging surveys.

In regard to your last comment / question.

Bow fishermen are the ultimate users AND the ultimate conservationists in regard to the alligator gar! We utilize them therefore we want to see them available for future generations.

I have mentioned before the spawning area above lake Texoma on the red river. The first time I went out to specifically target Alligator Gar was at that spawning area! That was in 1962. I, and many others, have shot that area almost every year since and there are STILL tons of gator gar spawning there. Why? Because we know if we shoot them all there will be none left for future generations. (Is that conservation??)

Bow fishermen showed that spot to Oklahoma fish and game in 2007 (iirc) and they immediately closed it to harvest in the month of May stating that bow fishermen would kill all of the spawners in 1 night. We had not killed them in 45 years but we would kill them all in one night?

"Knee Jerk" reactions are not the best path to sustainability of a species. Knowledge is the key, but what do I know... I've only been bow fishing for them for 50+ years.

Texas Outlaw,

You seem like a standup guy. I'm glad to see that your tournament disposal involves utilizing the catch for something other than fertilizer. I have no doubt that you are a conservationist, and want these fish to be around for future generations. The problem is, there are a lot of people out there that aren't and don't care. Please keep up the good work with educating other hunters on Gar. But is it really too much to ask to let the gar spawn without pressure when they find favorable conditions? You still get the whole river/lake to hunt them. Do me a favor, though. Go to any of the bowfishing forums and type in "fish disposal" in the search. Far too many of these fish are being wasted, and if you truly beleive that it is a minority of bowhunters then you need to look at the number of posts.

I understand it's a control issue with many. They don't want to be told what to do, because they are being responsible and adhering to the laws already. The problem is that there are many people out there that aren't like that, and there is no way to just manage those people so we get blanket laws for everyone.

And I stand corrected on the survey. I didn't get to read it, and didn't know what all it said. I still believe that it was far too small a sample number, however.

Agreed, it sounds like Texas Outlaw is setting an excellent example!

My hat is off to you.

However, will you at least agree that TBA has been historically wrong to oppose any form of regulation on Alligator Gar Harvest?

I / we invited the biologist and game warden to all of our tournaments on Choke so they could get the harvest numbers and otoliths they needed. The hosts of bow fishing tournaments on the trinity did the same for three years running, a total of nine tournaments. Nine tournaments over a 3 year period and encompassing over 630 bow fishermen they took I believe, 136 gator gar and only a few approached the 6' mark. Read Dan Bennets study. We have all supported the studies on the alligator gar.

I have been a part of the bow fishing community for a long time. I also know most of the GG bow fishing guides and I truly believe that the harvest numbers are not even close to what you seem to think they are. Most guides go out with several bow fishermen on the boat and will only guarantee an "opportunity" at a trophy gar. That means a quick rolling shot at a gar with-in the length of line on the reel! It is not as easy as "shooting fish in a barrel" as one commissioner put it.

No, I would not agree with that statement. If I had any thought that the species was in danger, I would be among the ones calling for protection, but they are not. Since the nets have been removed from the bays and rivers, the species has exploded. I truly believe there are many times more GG in Texas right now than at any time since the 1950's when Texas declared war on the species and tried to wipe them all out!

I think about what the CCA did for the coastal fisherys especially with redfish in the 80's and 90's with a fishery that was already on the decline.Can anything be "poached" (sorry couldn't resist) from what they did and used as a model for alligator gar? It's a totally different fish in a totally different enviorment but the methods they used seem sound and worked. While we may have plenty of them in Texas the species has declined in range and population across the USA and it is our largest freshwater species in the USA out side of the giant sturgeon and as a sportsman no matter how you target them they are worth protecting no matter how the state defines them as a fish

Texas could ultimately declare them a game fish and the protection that provides with this classification.

They are awesome fish and 10 years ago if you told me there would be this much discussion and state interest I would have laughed in your face. No matter what side of the argument you fall on its good that the state is taking this much interest in the alligator gar to insure the big Gal's will be around for years to come.

I just hope if "we" do make a mistake, we error on the side of the Alligator Gar. In a worse case scenario...we're just talking limiting access to certain bodies of water for what...2-3 months out of the year?

From reading the proposal, it probably wouldn't even limit access for that long. And it also didn't state it would be entire bodies of water, just specific spawning areas within them.

REPOST TO MORE POPULAR TOPIC
REPOST TO MORE POPULAR TOPIC

TPW released the proposed language of the new restrictions on alligator gar spawning areas as part of their agenda for their next meeting at the end of the month. This has been a hot topic these last few days.

Action
2014-2015 Statewide Recreational and Commercial Fishing Proclamation
March 27, 2014

RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends that the Commission adopt the proposed motion:


BEGIN EXCERPT:
Proposed new �57.977, concerning Spawning Event Closure, would establish a processes to allow the department to temporarily prohibit the take of alligator gar in places where they are spawning or are about to spawn. Alligator gar populations are believed to be declining throughout much of their historical range in North America, which includes the Mississippi River system as well as the coastal rivers of the Gulf of Mexico from Florida to northern Mexico. Although the specific severity of these declines is unknown, habitat alteration and over-exploitation are thought to be partially responsible. Alligator gar have been extirpated in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and designated as a �Species of Concern� in Oklahoma and Kentucky. In addition, the Endangered Fishes Committee of the American Fisheries Society has listed the alligator gar as �Vulnerable.� Observed declines in other states, vulnerability to overfishing, and increased interest in the harvest of trophy gar indicate that a conservative management approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. On that basis, the Commission in 2009 adopted a daily bag limit of one alligator gar per person, which was intended to protect adult fish while allowing limited harvest, thus ensuring population stability. Since 2009, the department has conducted (and is continuing to conduct) research to determine the estimated harvest of alligator gar, quantify reproduction, understand habitat usage, and determine geographic differences in populations. Initial analysis of the research data indicate that alligator gar in Texas have the greatest chance of spawning success if the creation of preferred spawning habitat (the seasonal inundation of low-lying areas of vegetation) occurs in late spring through early summer. Since each year does not necessarily bring seasonal inundation at the optimum time, spawning success varies greatly. For example, department data for the middle Trinity River indicate that between 1980 and 2010, strong reproductive success occurred in only five years (1980, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 2007). Furthermore, in 21 of the years between 1980 and 2010, reproductive success was nonexistent or weak, and in many of these years, rainfall was low or drought conditions occurred. Because the conditions for spawning do not exist on a regular or cyclical basis, and because spawning occurs in shallow waters where numerous gar can be concentrated in one area, alligator gar are extremely vulnerable to harvest during spawning. To protect alligator gar from excessive harvest during spawning, the proposed new rule would allow the executive director of the department to prohibit the take of alligator in an affected area, which would be defined as �an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning� or �an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.� The proposed new rule would define �environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning� as �the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, duration and timing of flooding events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.� The proposed new rule would require the executive director to provide appropriate public notice when an affected area is declared and when lawful fishing for alligator may resume, and would limit the duration of a prohibition to no more than 30 days. The department believes it is important to provide the angling public with a specific maximum time span for the effectiveness of an action under the proposed new section. The proposed new rule is necessary to manage alligator gar populations and ensure their ability to perpetuate themselves successfully.




At the Work Session meeting on January 22, 2014, staff was authorized to publish the proposed rules in the Texas Register for public comment. The proposed rules appeared in the February 21, 2014 issue of the Texas Register (39 TexReg 1063).

�57.977. Spawning Event Closures.

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall have the following meanings:

(1) Affected area�

(A) an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning; or

(B) an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.

(2) Environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning �the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, timing and duration of flood events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to alligator gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.

(b) The Executive Director shall prohibit the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area and shall provide appropriate notice to the public when the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area is prohibited. The Executive Director shall provide appropriate public notice as to when lawful fishing in the affected area or areas may resume. An action under this section shall not exceed 30 days in duration.

(c) No person may take or attempt to take alligator gar by any means in an affected area declared by the Executive Director under subsection (b) of this section until the Executive Director gives notice that the lawful take of alligator gar may resume.

�57.978. Violations and Penalties. The penalties for a violation of this subchapter are prescribed by Parks and Wildlife Code.

This agency hereby certifies that the proposal has been reviewed by legal counsel and found to be within the agency�s authority to adopt.

Issued in Austin, Texas, on



A summary of public comment on the proposed rules will be presented at the time of the hearing.






My take away were the following

-TPW agrees with US Fisheries that this is vulnerable species
-TPW believes recent spawns have been weak
-TPW does not have a firm grasp of total harvest
-When spawning does occur it concentrates them in small areas of shallow water where TPW thinks they are extremely vulnerable to harvest
-TPW believes a conservative management strategy is warranted
-TPW Staff (biologists) are recommending the commission pass the proposed motion


I'll say it again, I remain to be convinced that closing areas to alligator gar fishing during what TPW determines to be spawning conditions
is the best answer. However, TPW staff seem to believe the situation is negative enough to warrant further "conservative management"

EDIT- I just finished a lengthy email exchange with Dr. Dan Daughtry at TPW. Based on that conversation I think this regulation strikes a good balance between allowing for a healthy spawn if conditions are right and minimal impact to all forms of sportsmen that pursue the alligator gar.
Based on this I have started the following petition:

CLICK LINK BELOW TO SIGN A PETITION IN SUPPORT OF THIS CHANGE
http://www.change.org/petitions/concerne...s-alligator-gar




CLICK LINK BELOW TO SUBMIT OFFICIAL COMMENTS TO TPW FOR OR AGAINST
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/201403_fishing.phtml

In my discussion with a friend we actually did discuss the red fish issue and the slot limits. I mentioned slot limits to one of TPW's biologist and he expressed that any form weight or slot limit would find for R&R anglers who can release oversize fish back, but that it woul be unduly burdensome on the bow fishing community who often have to make split second decisions when their quarry presents itself.

It's interesting you mention sturgeon as well. We discussed the sturgeon and paddlefish as having very similar life histories. Their extreme longevity combined with the decade or more it takes them to mature makes them relatively difficult to study. Therefore determining an appropriate harvest is difficult. Should one err on the wrong side, the population could crash and it could take decades to recover if they ever do. So in abscence of a complete picture the conservation should err on the side of being more conservative.

The vast majority of the sturgeon and paddlefish we have now are not wild fish from naturually occuring populations. They are hatchery fish from stocking programs. Wild fish can be relatively unique genetically from one waterbody to the next as they have adapted to that specific environment over generations. The hatchery fish that survive to the stocking size have adapted to survive in the hatchery environment. Unfortunately hatchery raised fish often don't adapt well to new the new environment once they are release into the wild.
Here are just a couple of examples of what can happen: They were hand fed so they can't catch wild food properly. They don't know how or when to seek shelter from storms. They don't spawn correctly. They have weak immune systems and are more susceptible to disease. These and many other reasons namely cost of administering a stocking program are why we should not see re-stockings as an easy painless solution if we were to over-exploit the current wild populations.

So let's take a game animal (that's what they made it when they went to 1 a day), but let's close it during the best times? Let's a apply that to deer, hmm that sucks. How about apply that to ducks, hmm that sucks too. But it's ok to apply that to fish?

Wanton Waste.....ok. How many TPWD biologists have attended our tournaments? How many tournaments have TPWD asked TBA to host? Lots of fish killed and disposed of, but no tickets written. Anahuac, 2006 (old I know), lots of game wardens standing around, no tickets written. Alligator Gar heads taken by TPWD, given to them by TBA members, only to leave the bodies (sometimes the bodies taken) no tickets written. Before you say it, I know that biologist don't enforce the law. But you would think the GW would know what's going on and write tickets right? Maybe they just don't enforce it, maybe it's interpretation, I don't know, but it don't seem to be as cut and dry as you guys claim.

Again, lets discuss Coyotes, Pigs, Javelina, Audad and some other exotic species that are just plain nasty to eat. Do you have a problem with killing these species too?

I have said this three times, but you have to compare apples to apples. The only species that have been in similar situations as gar that have similar life characteristics are paddle fish and sturgeon. If you want to go into detail on those and debate it, that's fine. But we can't compare to other animals that have different habitats, ages of maturity, etc. and have a range of the entire United States.



So you are saying that these Game Wardens witnessed bowhunters dumping these fish in a pile to rot and did nothing about it? I need to know this so I can be educated on the issue when I contact them. The law is clearly written, but if what you are saying is true then the enforcement is the part that is a grey area.



Pretty sure Coyotes are not considered edible. Carp and Gar are considered edible. Coyotes also cause harm to livestock. I'm not sure what the current population is, but at one time some counties had bounties on them. Feral hogs are an invasive species that are causing destruction to our farms. I really don't like killing them without utilizing at least some part of the carcass, but we kill them with the purpose of protecting our land. Gar are not an invasive species, and do not pose a risk to our ecosystem. So there is no justification for killing without utilizing the carcass for either food or bait, as the law reads.

I don't know anything about Javelina and Audad, so I'm not going to comment on those other than the fact that it still isn't comparing similar creatures.

It just doesn't seem right to me that they are going to use data from a single section of the Trinity river as a model for the entire state. South Texas is nothing like the area from corsicana to livingston. There are fish down south hitting reproductive age in three years right now, in that case those fish do not need this. The river fish up here maybe, but I am not sold on it for them either.