"COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: It's got two photographs on the right, one of the spawn -- that one. No, back up. Right there. You see if you've got it on your -- pull it up on your computer screen, you see what looks like four Gar in 2, 3, 4 inches of water. And to me, if we're going to maximize the chances of a spawn given that it's so critical and happens four out of ten years we've seen it happen, then I don't know that we ought to permit bow fishing -- I call it bow fishing, killing them by bow in a spawn month."

slimjim..we live over here in Milam county. Fish the Brazos and Little River a lot.

I used to do a lot of work out that way. I hunt on the other side of the Brazos off 485 and have a spot I fish from time to time near Branchville. We might have to get together sometime.

Ok I read through the whole part concerning alligator gar from that meeting. During that transcript they specifically mentioned bow fishing and never brought up catch and release fishing for them. The only mention at any time of rod and reel fishing was that coupled with jugs and trot lines it only accounted for about 23% of harvest, the other 77% was by bow.

One commissioner even went so far as to ask if they should end bow harvest period.

What I am confused about now is that the proposal they have laid out is not that specific. Why did they make a dumbed down proposal about this? Why not implement a harvest ban or at least inquire about one when that is what they discussed at the meeting?

If they only mean to restrict harvest, they should have worded it better. Maybe by "prohibit taking or attempting to take alligator gar" That is what they meant by the word "taking". I guess we won't know until we hear back from them.

I would like to see proof that the gar "Have to have" flooded water to spawn? Maybe they prefer to spawn in flooded water but that dosent mean they have to have it. Heck they reproduce fine in many lakes across Texas and most have been in drought levels for the last couple years and we still see small gar that have been hatched during that time? Also it's impossible to predict when the spawn is going to take place. If you want to go by water temps then that's fine but you need temp stations all over the rivers and then monitor them 24-7 and then you need people at every boat ramp letting people know the rivers are closed today due to water temps being in spawn range etc and that's just not going to work. They need to seriously invest time and money into the alligator gar before they start making regulations that they have no idea about. Then they need to start a breeding and stocking program if that's the case. Funny how in the 50's they dang near eradicated all of them on purpose and now they want to regulate them. Gator gar grow faster than people think. Heck they are killing HUGE GATOR GAR and 50 yrs ago there weren't many at all left in Texas. More research needs to be done before they try and make regulations. Just to say they did something.......

My guess is this is one of the things they were looking at when this was first proposed.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20110811a

With these data, biologists estimated that this portion of the river contained about 9,200 alligator gar 42 inches long or longer and about 1,400 fish 78 inches or longer. It was determined that about three to four percent of these alligator gar were harvested annually with most (73 percent) of the harvest occurring between April and July of each year. Biologists also estimated that only about 5 percent, or 400 fish 42 inches or longer, could be harvested each year from this portion of the river and still sustain this trophy fishery.

Trivia.
I looked on the Heart of Hills website and only found one completed study. This is where your spawning information would have come from.

Finished 2008
Life History and Status of Alligator Gar with Recommendations for Management
Principal Investigator: Dave Buckmeier
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/nonpwdpubs/media/gar_status_073108.pdf

Newspaper articles mention a hooking mortality C&R study for Alligator Gar, but I have been unable to find an actual document or current study. These are the current research projects from HOH.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/fish/management/research/inland/current.phtml

Mark-Recapture Assessment of Population Dynamics of the Alligator Gar Spawning Stock in Choke Canyon Reservoir, Texas
Principal Investigators: Dan Daugherty, Kris Bodine, and Greg Binion
Seasonal Movement and Habitat Use of Alligator Gar and Striped Bass in the Lower Trinity River
Principal Investigators: Dave Buckmeier, Nate Smith, and Dan Daugherty
Trinity River Alligator Gar Investigations
Principal Investigators: Dave Buckmeier and Allyse Ferrara (Nicholls State Univ.) in cooperation with Captain Kirk Kirkland
Validation of Annual Marks on Four Structures Used to Estimate Age of Gar and Retention of Fish Tags
Principal Investigator: Dave Buckmeier
Validation of Daily Marks on Otoliths of Alligator Gar
Principal Investigators: Peter Sakaris (Southern Polytechnic University), Dave Buckmeier, and Nate Smith

Want to see something interesting?

Go through each of the published "Studies" and information pamphlets, and count the number of times the following words / phrases are used:

May... may indicate
Might... Might indicate, might harm
should...
could... could indicate, could harm

Then look for words like:

proof, proven, scientifically proven, definitive. (without the word "not" in front of it)

Just something to do on a rainy day...

The population estimate was over 42,000 in the area where I tagged , which is from below Livingston dam to above Trinidad , so I don't know where you got your data . The gar DO have to have flooded vegetation in which to spawn , you can artificially make them spawn in a controlled environment by raising the water levels , I can promise you I have made my living from alligator gar since 1999 and there is tons of misconception on alligator gar everywhere , I have people all the time swear to me that they have alligator gar in a lake or stream where there have never been alligator gar . Some of you bow guys think I want the harvest by bow stopped and you are far from right I want the WANTON WASTE stopped , if you are going to kill them do something with them and don't lie and say you do , how many people know how long it takes for a alligator gar to spoil in hot weather ? I do as I have cleaned lots , it takes about 1 to 1 1/2 hrs to turn green on the inside .
My suggestion has been to P&W to have a trophy tag on our fishing lic. You can only take 1 redfish over so many inches and most don't live over 7-10 yrs , where as you can take 1 alligator gar a day that lives to be over 80 yrs old , You can only take 2- whitetail deer that reach their maximum potential in 6-7 yrs and they population estimate is ???? That's my point , I am NOT for the stoppage of any harvest method just the harvest where everyone can enjoy these wonderful fish

42,000 in roughly 150 mile stretch of river? @280 fish/mile........ Does that include GG in Livingston and Richland Chambers? Or just the river? Sounds like a lot of GG what am I missing?

I think I pretty much agree with all of that. Not a bad idea at all on the trophy tag like they do on reds.


It shows you quoted me, but I don't think I said they don't need flooded veggies just that they need it doesn't take an out of the banks flood to get them to drop eggs. I could be wrong but I was figuring a week of 5-10' high should be enough for them to at least get a partial spawn in.

I personally think there are more fish than that, what about you?

I just do not understand why some of you still think a Trophy tag or protection during the spawn, or any further regulation is even needed? The estimated population is 42,000! That's about 290 Gator gar per mile of river! They netted 676 Gator gar in Choke ! and they at best got 15 - 20% of the total population. That is over 3000 'Gator gar in Choke!?!?!!

WHERE IS THE NEED FOR FURTHER REGULATION!!!

PLEASE, someone explain it to me.

Tex, I think regardless of where we all stand on what we think is needed, most of us that go and do any alligator gar "fishing" or guiding do not think that what has been laid out there by the commissioners is the way to go. Have any of you considered showing up to one of the meetings? Any of them close to you? I was considering the one in Palestine next week.

I'll be at the DFW meeting

That's actually about a 225 mile stretch of river.


Whether or not they have to spawn in grassy areas isn't the big issue. It is more the rate of survival of the young. The young have to stick to grass and use their yolk sack for nutrition. Without grass, or anything else to stick to, they end up being food for other fish and birds. So yes, they may spawn without submerged plants in abundance, but it is not ideal and often results in a less desirable success rate.

I like the idea of having a trophy tag as well. Especially since the redfish has a much larger range.

For the bowhunting guys, I'm sorry that there are others out there that make a bad name of the sport, but you can't convince me that Wanton waste is not a very large problem. It is because of this that the claims of us only being at 3.5% of harvest cannot be accurate. I've already admitted that fishermen do it too. But you can't keep claiming that we are under the sustainable harvest rate without some sort of way to measure it accurately. I have seen more gar killed and wasted than taken home and untilized. Last time I was at the trinity, there was a bowhunter at the ramp that had about a 6.5' Gar in his boat. He voluntarily told me that he meant to eat it, but he had stayed out too long and probably would just cut the head off. I truly beleive that there are bowhunters out there that follow the laws and don't waste their catch. I also can understand being upset that you spent $20,000 or more on a boat and equipment to chase them with. So what is the truth of the matter? Most people that do eat gar tell me that the larger ones don't taste as good as the smaller ones. If everyone is eating these gar, shouldn't they be fine with shooting a smaller one once a day, and having a trophy tag to get one big one per year? I think that is reasonable.