Alligators?

No way in heck I'd ever sign that petition. Wake up people...

Yep, let's do nothing so the feds can declare the alligator gar an endangered species and then the feds can close the entire lake and river to all activities during the alligator gar spawn. And all sporting harvest of the alligator gar anytime. Yeah, that's what we want.

Guess you could say that about a lot of species of fish too....not just gar.

Coosa River Spotted Bass are only found in one river. Peacock Bass mainly found in Amazon. Musky n Pike in Canada. List goes on and on.

Why pick only one species to protect?

Because most other species are already protected. DUH!

Whether you leave them on the bank, or take them home to fertilize your yard, it is ILLEGAL. This was clarified at the Huntsville meeting by the attending Game Warden. He stated that it's hard to catch people doing it, but if he catches anyone do it then the fine can be up to $500 PER FISH. The law clearly states that the fish are to be used for either bait or consumption. Just because people do it all the time doesn't make it legal. Sure, there are plenty of people breaking the speed limit, but does that mean they won't get a ticket if they are caught?

The only thing Gar and Carp are good for is fertilizer? The common carp was imported as a food source. Look it up. If gar are only good for fertilizer, then WHY are there people that commercially fish for them and WHY is there a market for the meat? Just because YOU don't find them to be edible, doesn't meat there aren't people out there that do.

Grass carp are irrelevant to this topic.

It's more than a little worrisome how few of you guys take the time to read the TPW Annual you get with your fishing license.
I can't help but wonder if more people took 15 minutes to do this the Zebra Mussles, Golden Algae Blooms, etc. would not get worse every year.

I was listening to the TPW commission audio today a recurring theme is how much money TPW spends on outreach and education and how they feel they are not succeeding in getting the message to the right people. I suppose the other option is to spend more on more game wardens paid for with massive fine increases.

I know many of you feel that because god smiled on you enough to bless you with being born in this country that you have a right to hunt and fish however you want. If you want to go buy 1500 acres on stock your own ponds and set up your own feeders then go shoot 50 deer in a day or 50 gar then go for it. That's how sport hunting and fishing in all but a few countries like the US. It takes place on private land and is exorbitantly expensive because the government and the public at large has so profoundly mismanaged the natural resources. In many countries they have had to outright ban hunting and fishing on public lands. However, you (thank your luck stars) were born here where the founding fathers placed great emphasis on freedom and democracy. further, They placed great emphasis on personal responsibility of their citizenry. They expected that in the absence of stringent and burdensome laws they could be counted on to do the right thing. With all due respect, I'm afraid this thread has become a something of commentary on the status of personal responsibility in this country.

"If we break it then the government will fix it."
"The government should meet my burden of proof before I'll lift a finger."
"If there is a problem then I had nothing to do with it. It was probably the government's fault but I know it wasn't me."
"The government always does a bad job so there's no use trying to improve it."

Anyhow, I'll get down of my soapbox now. This has been an interesting and worthwhile debate and you all have my respect and admiration for standing up to be counted.

You all have a great night and again thank your lucky stars for the privilege of freedom and responsibility you enjoy. Maybe even thank the next veteran you run into.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the 2-3 of you who are for the new regulation for your passion, writing ability, and skill at debate.

1. The fish disposal conversation I think isn�t really relevant to this issue, which is whether or not additional alligator gar harvest regulations are needed (it�s about the health of alligator gar populations in Texas). Continually bringing up the issue of �wanton waste� is a form of ad hominem fallacy, you are simply reframing the argument in a way that lets you attack bow anglers instead of making the case that alligator gar populations are declining in Texas.

2. When the dust settles, each side is able to interpret the research in a way that supports their own values and beliefs with regard to alligator gar management. This ambiguity is an indicator of the exploratory nature of current research, as mature research would leave little room for interpretation. Mature research interpreted by qualified biologists allows us to avoid the pitfalls of spuriousness, confirmation bias, and overgeneralization. It also prevents us from making conservation policies based on studies that are low in reliability and validity (reference one-shot study that pegged 100 gar into 46 year classes and was interpreted as an accurate measure of yearly spawning success).

3. The fall back for those in favor of the regulation seems to be that since we still need to learn more we should take a �conservative management� approach. The sturgeon example sounds good until you look at how decimated the population was before we started managing it. It�s not the same scenario. In 1879, 3.8 million pounds were harvested from Lake Michigan. In 1929 when they closed commercial harvest, only 2000 pounds were harvested. If we spuriously interpret harvest rates as indicative of population, we wiped out over 99.95% of the sturgeon population. While there are similarities between the life cycle of the sturgeon and the alligator gar, I don�t think any biologist would say that Texas� alligator gar have been harvested to the same extent in that sturgeon were harvested. At the other end of the spectrum, I think we have to acknowledge that a conservative management approach could lead to other water bodies experiencing the same situation that Falcon Lake is experiencing now.

4. 15 years ago when I started angling for alligator gar on the Trinity, I thought they must be endangered because I couldn�t find them. Really I just had no idea what I was doing; I saw more gar last year than I�ve seen in any previous year.
http://www.fws.gov/midwest/sturgeon/biology.htm

Thanks for posting again. Your two posts were very well written, and I appreciate you taking the time. I just have a few comments.



Here are my comments on the fish disposal discussion. I originally brought it up to justify my argument that I didn't think we could accurately assess our current harvest rate. That is how it has to do with the current proposal. In no way was I trying to insult bowfishermen. People running trot lines, jug lines, and rod an reel are guilty as well. Unfortunately, several of the bowfishermen demonstrated their inability to read the laws put in place regarding Wanton Waste and follow them. I have never reframed the argument to attack bowfishermen, but I will fight the Wanton Waste issue with anyone who cares to debate it. It is against the Law, unethical, and immoral. On your last post, you mentioned how bowfishemen were getting better about making sure the new guys were disposing of their fish properly. Based on what the current law says, how do you justify disposing of fish other than eating them or using them for bait? I understand there are exceptions, such as invasive fish, etc.




I may not be understanding you correctly, but I totally agree that we need more mature research. The question is, how long will that take?



As far as bringing up the sturgeon, I had one purpose for that. Everyone keeps trying to compare gar management to bass, deer, doves....I can't even remember what else has been brought up on here. My argument was that you have to compare apples to apples. And though Gar and Sturgeon are very different, they are about as similar as you are going to get. So, my argument was that people need to compare Gar to similar species if they want to compare management strategies. As far as Falcon goes, there are many factors that are contributing to what is going on there. Gar are included. Think about this, though...Gar are going to eat whatever is easiest for them to catch. Generally, that would be shad, carp and drum. What is our carp and shad population there? When a boat goes through the lake and takes out 200-400 pounds of prime gar feed over a weekend, I'm willing to bet over time that it has an effect on the population of what the gar eat. I'm not saying that this is the reason, I'm just saying there are a lot of other factors involved, though everyone seems to be set on the fact that the gar are the problem. I will state, as I have multiple times, that I believe water bodies should have different bag limits based on population. That's hard to do on a river, though.

I went to the Huntsville meeting, and wish every person that has commented on these threads could have been there. If they had, they would understand that this isn't going to have a much of an effect, if any at all, on their sport. They showed us a graph that showed every time the Trinity reached flood stage since 1990. It was 8-10 times. During the times the river floods, it only stays flooded for 4-5 days at most. So, when you get down to the nitty gritty of the situation.....

1. We are FAR more likely to NOT have any closures than to have one.
2. Even if we do have one, it would likely only be for a few days until the water level drops.
3. Most people wouldn't even be on the river when it floods.
4. Closures would ONLY TAKE PLACE IF RECOMMENDED BY TPWD BIOLOGISTS.
5. Closures would not effect any other type of fishing, and harvesting gar would be the only thing prohibited during that time.

These were answers to questions I asked while I was there. If everyone is still opposed to that, then they just don't want any regulation at all and will never be convinced otherwise. Again, I wish everyone could have been there, but they weren't, which was a real shame.

It was a little hard to hear, but I believe the new regulation just passed.
A big thanks for all those that signed the petition!

It did!!!!!!!!!

AWESOME! Good deal. I'll listen to the Audio tonight. Did Texas Bowfishing get a chance to speak or anyone else for or against?

All you need to do is drive around choke canyon and falcon during the summer and watch the scads of these neolithic beasts breaching the water EVERYWEAR to know this blanket BS regulation is laziness on the part of TPWD and anyone supporting it...im not reading another 4 pages on this [censored] to attempt to formulate a "new opinion"

The idea that we should protect these fish IN ALL bodies is laughable at best...Every body of water in this state is different SOME are being harmed by your beloved gar.

Furthermore the day gar fishing brings in even 10% of the funding that bass fishing brings in I will eat my hat. Find a way to make sure gar fisherman pay as much into the sport as the rest of the bass fishermen do and then ill worry about how protected your species is.

Bottom line is dollars...these creatures dont need the attention you seem to think they do...at least not in ALL bodies of water.

What "blanket BS regulation"? I guess it is a blanket regulation, but it will be used only in isolated cases if used at all.
I pay just as much as any fisherman, I buy license, I buy tackle, I buy boats and pay registration and I donate to TP&W. So what else am I leaving out?
Now, IF you could read and comprehend, the closing will only be applied to areas that have low populations of alligator gar. If a lake has an abundence, there will be no closure. It don't get much simpler than that.

BTW, I am a bass fisherman. I have never caught a gar, nor have I fished for them. But I DO NOT want the feds to take over and declare the alligator gar an endangered species.

I don't think the transcript is up yet but my understanding is that it would only be used on specific sections of rivers , flood plain and connected oxbows based on water temp and USGS river guage. I don't believe they intend to ban harvest on any reservoirs. I don't think Falcon is going to flood anytime soon, LOL

Also the day the TPWD starts making decisions primarily based on how much or little a certain species generates dollar wise sales will be a sad day indeed.