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Dec 30th, 2023
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 Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
#9821671
03/13/14 09:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 910
winchester44
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TPW released the proposed language of the new restrictions on alligator gar spawning areas as part of their agenda for their next meeting at the end of the month. This has been a hot topic these last few days. Action
2014-2015 Statewide Recreational and Commercial Fishing Proclamation
March 27, 2014
RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends that the Commission adopt the proposed motion:
BEGIN EXCERPT:
Proposed new �57.977, concerning Spawning Event Closure, would establish a processes to allow the department to temporarily prohibit the take of alligator gar in places where they are spawning or are about to spawn. Alligator gar populations are believed to be declining throughout much of their historical range in North America, which includes the Mississippi River system as well as the coastal rivers of the Gulf of Mexico from Florida to northern Mexico. Although the specific severity of these declines is unknown, habitat alteration and over-exploitation are thought to be partially responsible. Alligator gar have been extirpated in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and designated as a �Species of Concern� in Oklahoma and Kentucky. In addition, the Endangered Fishes Committee of the American Fisheries Society has listed the alligator gar as �Vulnerable.� Observed declines in other states, vulnerability to overfishing, and increased interest in the harvest of trophy gar indicate that a conservative management approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. On that basis, the Commission in 2009 adopted a daily bag limit of one alligator gar per person, which was intended to protect adult fish while allowing limited harvest, thus ensuring population stability. Since 2009, the department has conducted (and is continuing to conduct) research to determine the estimated harvest of alligator gar, quantify reproduction, understand habitat usage, and determine geographic differences in populations. Initial analysis of the research data indicate that alligator gar in Texas have the greatest chance of spawning success if the creation of preferred spawning habitat (the seasonal inundation of low-lying areas of vegetation) occurs in late spring through early summer. Since each year does not necessarily bring seasonal inundation at the optimum time, spawning success varies greatly. For example, department data for the middle Trinity River indicate that between 1980 and 2010, strong reproductive success occurred in only five years (1980, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 2007). Furthermore, in 21 of the years between 1980 and 2010, reproductive success was nonexistent or weak, and in many of these years, rainfall was low or drought conditions occurred. Because the conditions for spawning do not exist on a regular or cyclical basis, and because spawning occurs in shallow waters where numerous gar can be concentrated in one area, alligator gar are extremely vulnerable to harvest during spawning. To protect alligator gar from excessive harvest during spawning, the proposed new rule would allow the executive director of the department to prohibit the take of alligator in an affected area, which would be defined as �an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning� or �an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.� The proposed new rule would define �environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning� as �the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, duration and timing of flooding events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.� The proposed new rule would require the executive director to provide appropriate public notice when an affected area is declared and when lawful fishing for alligator may resume, and would limit the duration of a prohibition to no more than 30 days. The department believes it is important to provide the angling public with a specific maximum time span for the effectiveness of an action under the proposed new section. The proposed new rule is necessary to manage alligator gar populations and ensure their ability to perpetuate themselves successfully.
At the Work Session meeting on January 22, 2014, staff was authorized to publish the proposed rules in the Texas Register for public comment. The proposed rules appeared in the February 21, 2014 issue of the Texas Register (39 TexReg 1063).
�57.977. Spawning Event Closures.
(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall have the following meanings:
(1) Affected area�
(A) an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning; or
(B) an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.
(2) Environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning �the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, timing and duration of flood events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to alligator gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.
(b) The Executive Director shall prohibit the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area and shall provide appropriate notice to the public when the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area is prohibited. The Executive Director shall provide appropriate public notice as to when lawful fishing in the affected area or areas may resume. An action under this section shall not exceed 30 days in duration.
(c) No person may take or attempt to take alligator gar by any means in an affected area declared by the Executive Director under subsection (b) of this section until the Executive Director gives notice that the lawful take of alligator gar may resume.
�57.978. Violations and Penalties. The penalties for a violation of this subchapter are prescribed by Parks and Wildlife Code.
This agency hereby certifies that the proposal has been reviewed by legal counsel and found to be within the agency�s authority to adopt.
Issued in Austin, Texas, on
A summary of public comment on the proposed rules will be presented at the time of the hearing.
My take away were the following -TPW agrees with US Fisheries that this is vulnerable species -TPW believes recent spawns have been weak -TPW does not have a firm grasp of total harvest -When spawning does occur it concentrates them in small areas of shallow water where TPW thinks they are extremely vulnerable to harvest -TPW believes a conservative management strategy is warranted -TPW Staff (biologists) are recommending the commission pass the proposed motion I'll say it again, I remain to be convinced that closing areas to alligator gar fishing during what TPW determines to be spawning conditions is the best answer. However, TPW staff seem to believe the situation is negative enough to warrant further "conservative management" EDIT- I just finished a lengthy email exchange with Dr. Dan Daughtry at TPW. Based on that conversation I think this regulation strikes a good balance between allowing for a healthy spawn if conditions are right and minimal impact to all forms of sportsmen that pursue the alligator gar. Based on this I have started the following petition:
CLICK LINK BELOW TO SIGN A PETITION IN SUPPORT OF THIS CHANGE
http://www.change.org/petitions/concerne...s-alligator-gar
CLICK LINK BELOW TO SUBMIT OFFICIAL COMMENTS TO TPW FOR OR AGAINST
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/201403_fishing.phtml
Last edited by winchester44; 03/15/14 12:16 AM.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9821688
03/13/14 09:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606
ChuChu1
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606 |
TP&W can do this or do nothing and let US Fisheries declare the A Gar endangered and a total prohibition.
Snowflakes and entitled brats will be the doom of America!
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9821709
03/13/14 09:22 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,820
NoWeighers
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,820 |
I think that Black Bass are highly vunerable to capture during the spawn.
I think that they Spawn from January thru March.
I think more trophy Black Bass are taken more easily during the spawn.
I think that Black Bass are under more pressure than Alligator Gar.
I think that Alligator Gar eat Black Bass.
I think that Black Bass rarely eat Alligator Gar.
I think that less than one percent of fishermen in Texas pursue Alligator gar.
I think over 80% of all fishing monies spent inside the state of Texas is on Bass.
I think we should close fishing for bass from January thru April because I KNOW that the bass are spawning..
I think this proposal is a crock of [censored]..
James Bendele
Falcon Lake Tackle
"On the eighth day, Man invented the Fish Hook."
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9821750
03/13/14 09:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 366
slimjim
Angler
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Angler
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Posts: 366 |
I think that Black Bass are highly vunerable to capture during the spawn.
I think that they Spawn from January thru March.
I think more trophy Black Bass are taken more easily during the spawn.
I think that Black Bass are under more pressure than Alligator Gar.
I think that Alligator Gar eat Black Bass.
I think that Black Bass rarely eat Alligator Gar.
I think that less than one percent of fishermen in Texas pursue Alligator gar.
I think over 80% of all fishing monies spent inside the state of Texas is on Bass.
I think we should close fishing for bass from January thru April because I KNOW that the bass are spawning.. Now that's comparing apples to apples right there. 
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9821820
03/13/14 10:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
CRACKCORN
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Winchester44, this is dated the 27th of this month. According to my calendar today is the 13th. Is that when they are going to meet and formally declare this regulation? If so why bother with all the public meetings which have yet to take place. This makes it sound like its a done deal. If they do this, I'd hate to be from out of state and have a vacation planned and a guide booked with hotel reservations/air fare and a flooding event take place the day I arrived. And how would they know if you are targeting GG or needle nose or catfish?
If there is a flooding event, most of the flooded vegetation is outside the banks of the river which means it's most likely on private land. There has always been a debate about this point. A lot of folks say if the river floods then a boater has access to the the water covering the private land so long as they remain in the boat. This gives them axcess to the spawning event. I'm not one to cross posted fence, but others do in this occasion. Wether it's legal I'm not for sure. But even with ALL this....... Only one can be taken per day and spawning should not last more than 2/3 days before the water drops back within the banks. I just don't see how there's a slaughter of fish. There's not that many people that can drop everything their doing and run to the river to shoot fish during a flood. For that matter crazy enough to launch a boat and get on the water at flood level. I know that people do it but, it's just not the numbers of people with the current regs of one a day to cause a threat. Anybody that spends time on the river sees the numbers of fish out there. But I guess I'll just have to trust TPWD and not my lying eyes. The government always knows what's best!!
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: CRACKCORN]
#9821847
03/13/14 10:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 910
winchester44
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Winchester44, this is dated the 27th of this month. According to my calendar today is the 13th. Is that when they are going to meet and formally declare this regulation? I BELIEVE THAT IS WHEN THE COMMISSION WILL MEET TO CONSIDER PUBLIC COMMENT AND VOTE TO ADOPT OR DECLINE THE MOTION
If so why bother with all the public meetings which have yet to take place. This makes it sound like its a done deal.
IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS JUST THE PROPOSED LANGUAGE
If they do this, I'd hate to be from out of state and have a vacation planned and a guide booked with hotel reservations/air fare and a flooding event take place the day I arrived.
THAT WOULD BE DISSAPOINTING, BUT I CHU CHU BRINGS A GOOD POINT, US FISHERIES IS INVOLVED NOW IF THEY PUT THEM ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIIES LIST, WELL THEN IT'S ALL OVER.
And how would they know if you are targeting GG or needle nose or catfish?
BY WHAT'S IN YOUR BOAT I ASSUME
If there is a flooding event, most of the flooded vegetation is outside the banks of the river which means it's most likely on private land. There has always been a debate about this point. A lot of folks say if the river floods then a boater has access to the the water covering the private land so long as they remain in the boat. This gives them axcess to the spawning event. I'm not one to cross posted fence, but others do in this occasion. Wether it's legal I'm not for sure.
TEXAS HAS PRETTY SPECIFIC LANGUAGE ABOUT WHERE PUBLIC ACCESS ENDS ON RIVERS. TO BE CONSIDERED NAVIGABLE IT MUST BE 30 FEET OR WIDER ON AVERAGE AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO STAY IN THE STREAM BED
But even with ALL this....... Only one can be taken per day and spawning should not last more than 2/3 days before the water drops back within the banks. I just don't see how there's a slaughter of fish. There's not that many people that can drop everything their doing and run to the river to shoot fish during a flood. For that matter crazy enough to launch a boat and get on the water at flood level.
SO IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THIS IS MUCH OF AN INCONVENIENCE?
I know that people do it but, it's just not the numbers of people with the current regs of one a day to cause a threat. Anybody that spends time on the river sees the numbers of fish out there. But I guess I'll just have to trust TPWD and not my lying eyes. The government always knows what's best!!
NOT ALWAYS, THERE MAY BE BETTER SOLUTIONS OUT THERE, BUT AS I SAID TPW FEELS THAT MORE CONSERVATIVE MANAGEMENT IS WARRANTED. I'M NOT SO SURE THIS IS IT EITHER.
Last edited by winchester44; 03/13/14 10:36 PM.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9821918
03/13/14 11:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 78
Texas Outlaw
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 78 |
I still don't like the language. But that aside I have 2 comments:
1. This will end the argument by some that the regulation is meant only for bow fishermen.
It will also end rod and reel fishing and trotlines / jug lines with live / natural bait during the period of closure.
2. Weathermen are paid very good money to predict the weather in Texas. Very few of them can predict a flood 30 days in advance! TP&W will have to give public notice when they plan to close an area. How are they going to predict when flood waters will be sufficient for spawning activity?
In 2010, Choke Canyon was low. Water temp was in the upper 60's in mid spring. An unexpected rain bomb hit the area dumping over 10" of rain overnight, raising the lake around 6'. We were on the lake a few days later and the GG were in flooded vegetation doing their thing. The water was so muddy that you could not see them, only the wakes when we ran over them!
We had a tournament 2 weeks later and there were so many baby GG in those areas that you could almost walk on them.
My point is, by the time any one realized they were spawning, it was over!
But then again, I'm not an expert or a biologist... I only have 50 years of field experience to offer. I have no published paper to back this up so I guess it does not matter??
And as far as the staff agreeing with this... they don't. But If you worked for TP&W and could be fired at any time by the commissioners, would you tell them they are wrong?
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9822082
03/14/14 12:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606
ChuChu1
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606 |
You can talk about this till the cows come home, and no matter how much or how long you do, the ONLY thing YOU can do is get up and attend a hearing and voice your opinion, or submit written opinions.
Snowflakes and entitled brats will be the doom of America!
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9822252
03/14/14 01:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 366
slimjim
Angler
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Angler
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1. This will end the argument by some that the regulation is meant only for bow fishermen.
It will also end rod and reel fishing and trotlines / jug lines with live / natural bait during the period of closure.
It may or may not involve R&R fishing. It's too early to tell. It depends on how they define "attempt to take." Personally, I don't care if it does. I've never had any luck trying to catch gar while they are spawning. 2. Weathermen are paid very good money to predict the weather in Texas. Very few of them can predict a flood 30 days in advance! TP&W will have to give public notice when they plan to close an area. How are they going to predict when flood waters will be sufficient for spawning activity?
Am I reading it wrong? I didn't think that it said they had to give 30 days notice. Just that the ban could only last 30 days. I may be wrong, but that's how I read it.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: slimjim]
#9822272
03/14/14 01:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 910
winchester44
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That's what I read as well. They felt it was important to cap it at "no more than 30 days"
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9822280
03/14/14 01:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 78
Texas Outlaw
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
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Posts: 78 |
"Appropriate notice" in Government terms generally means posting in the fed register for 30 days.
But you are right, it does not specifically state a 30 day notice.
As far as R&R fishing, yup, We will wait and see.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: Texas Outlaw]
#9822287
03/14/14 01:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 910
winchester44
OP
Pro Angler
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From what I have seen TPW do in the gulf, it means posting flyers at all the ramps and marinas.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9822587
03/14/14 03:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 78
Texas Outlaw
Outdoorsman
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THAT would be a MONUMENTAL task in some areas! There are literally hundreds of private ramps / launching points on the trinity.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9822743
03/14/14 04:08 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 366
slimjim
Angler
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Angler
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Posts: 366 |
Which would show they are willing to work in order to make everyone happy. It would be much cheaper and easier to just ban the harvest of gar for 3 months/year.
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Re: Proposed Language of New Alligator Gar Spawning Restrictions Posted
[Re: winchester44]
#9823377
03/14/14 02:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 366
slimjim
Angler
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Angler
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Posts: 366 |
Took this from the Bowfishing forum, posted by Texas Outlaw: I'm going to assume you were referring to me in that comment, since as far as I know I'm the only one that has quoted you from over there. Questions: 1. When have I made a personal attack against you? 2. How do you know I am inexperienced? 3. Why do you assume I'm a college professor? 3. Why do I get classified as an "O" voter just because I have conservation concerns on this species?
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