Not one person has mentioned yet that only 5 years ago, there was an UNLIMITED COMMERCIAL MARKET for alligator gar in Texas. The one fish per day rule also applies to commercial fishermen, so that law all but ended commercial harvest; which was exponentially more than any bowfishermen were pulling out of the water. Why after only 5 short years is there a need to pass a knee jerk regulation when the effects of the previous regulations hasn't had time to be effectively gauged?

Lest you still have doubts here is an eye opening thread:

http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208777

I'm afraid you are mis-informered. In 2007 the last year that commercial harvest of alligator was legal, the state only had 13 permitted fishing operations and all reported 1,000 lbs or less annual harvest of alligator gar. I'm guessing the typical gator gar bow fishing tournament kills well over 1,000 lbs of alligator gar. I'm sure most of those tournaments are well regulated and the one fish per day is followed.

However it's intersting you bring up those commercial fishermen. I'm guessing they were trying to earn a living and were feeding families. However the bowfishing community seem to have a growing problem with "disposal". I guess they figured that dumping hundreds of pounds of whole fish in the water, boat ramp, parking lot, state park trash can etc. was bad for PR. So in their efforts to clean up their image what does disposal look like today? At a tournament the best case is that it's a roll off dumpster full of whole fish that get's ground up into fertilizer, worst case it's a roll off dumpster that get's dumped on someone's land. That's for tournaments of course. The every weekend harvest? Well.....

Copy and paste this
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22fish+disposal+will+be+provided%22&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS458US458&oq=%22fish+disposal+will+be+provided%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.13536j0j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=%22fish+disposal+will+be+provided%22&start=10

I know Kirkland is on here and has posted on this exact thread.....I wonder how many pounds of alligator gar he took out of Livingston and the Trinity as a commercial fisherman? I bet it was just a tad bit over 1,000 lbs

I'm not saying either the current regulation or the proposed one is even the right one, but I'm not hearing anything but "populations are fine" and opposition to any regulation from the bow fishing community. On one hand the bow fishing community claims to be "more informed" than TPW on alligator gar populations even going so far as to call out TPW biologist by name and questioning their veracity, but far be it from them or their association to suggest any form of alternate regulation.

As recently as 2009 the state allowed unlimited harvest and 73% of comments submitted to TPW supported a bag limit, but not the TBA. They came out in staunch opposition to the bag limit and proposed no alternative regulation. This is the same tactic TBA is taking this time around as well. No internal surveys to support their case, no alternate regulation, just an attitude that the state's biologist have no idea what they are doing. This stance is why this petition will fall on deaf ears at TPW just like the last one did.


One final point to close out the evening. Prime Spawning months for alligator gar
are March-April, during the historically two wettest months that in some years allow them to spawn. How fitting that the TBA in it's infinite wisdom hosts their annual Gar Bananza Tournament in late March. Here's a photo from their facebook page. Here's a photo from the 2011
Tournament

Populations are fine....even the TPWD biologists are saying it.

Recommendations
In Texas, increased fishing pressure for alligator gar and future degradation of river and estuarine habitats potentially threaten existing alligator gar populations. Observed declines in other states and vulnerability to overfishing indicate a conservative approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. It is recommended that the TPWD join other states in managing alligator gar populations by significantly reducing harvest and protecting spawning and nursery areas. A management strategy that emphasizes protection of
7
adult fish, while allowing some harvest of juvenile with more limited harvest of trophy fish seems most appropriate for the goal of ensuring population stability while allowing utilization of the resource. Because alligator gar inhabit, and likely migrate between inland and coastal waters, management needs to span both environments. The TPWD should also work to prevent further habitat degradation. Specifically, it will be necessary to maintain the periodicity of flood pulses that connect river channel habitats to backwater areas to ensure alligator gar recruitment. Maintenance of river flows will also be critical to the preservation of estuarine habitats used by alligator gar. The TPWD will need to assess alligator gar populations and evaluate potential threats as soon as is feasible. Data describing basic population rates (i.e., growth, recruitment, and mortality) will be critical to population assessments, as will the identification of critical habitat needs and information about seasonal movements. Data describing the commercial and recreational fishery, as well as data projecting future river flows will be needed to assess potential threats to alligator gar populations.
8

When you think about bass, you think about Crappie, you think about other species, catfish, typical harvest rates for those species are 20 to 50 percent. So we're showing really very, very sensitive -- that Alligator Gar are very, very sensitive to overharvest and so maintaining a sustainable harvest level is very important.

So 37 percent of the time, either reproduction did not occur or reproduction was completely unsuccessful. So four out of every ten years, Alligator Gar in the Trinity River, based on our samples so far, have not had successful reproduction.

For several years we used a commercial fisherman for fish disposal at our tournaments (carp, buffalo and long nose gar... no GG). He used them for GG bait on his jug lines. Several times he was observed running his lines with 5-6 people in the boat. He would bring in 1 GG per person then get 5-6 more people and go run more of his lines. He typically put out 40 or more jug lines per day.

BTW - He is in jail now. Some one turned him in last year.


The point is that commercial fishermen harvested a lot of GG in the years before the 1 a day regulation, and some (NOT ALL) of them continued the practice after it was imposed.
I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT COMMERCIAL FISHING HAD AN IMPACT, BUT YOU ARE NOT GIVING ANY INFORMATION ON THE SCALE OF THE COMMERCIAL FISHING.
THERE WERE ALL OF 13 PERMITS ISSUED IN 2007 FOR COMMERCIAL FISHERMAN TARGETING ALLIGATOR GAR. MOST REPORTED HARVESTING 1,000 LBS OR LESS IN THAT LAST YEAR.


LET'S ASSUME FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT THERE TOTAL ANNUAL COMMERCIAL CATCH WAS 13,000 LBS (13 PERMITS X 1,000LBS EACH)

NOW LETS JUST DO SOME SIMPLE HIP POCKET MATH HERE (THIS ARE JUST A GUESS TRUE NUMBERS COULD BE HIGHER) :

TOTAL BOW FISHERMEN TARGETING ALLIGATOR GAR: 250 (ONE PER COUNTY)
AVERAGE ANNUAL HARVEST PER HUNTER: 4 FISH
AVERAGE FISH SIZE: 100 LBS
TOTAL ANNUAL HARVEST: 100,000 LBS

WHILE THE BOW FISHING NUMBER IS OBVIOUSLY HIGHER. IT DOES NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY
SINCE THE BAG LIMIT WAS INTRODUCED THE BOW FISHING COMMUNITY HAVE PUT EXTRA EMPHASIS
ON TARGETING "TROPHY" FISH. NAMELY LARGE MATURE BREEDING FEMALES. THE COMMERCIAL FISHERMEN
PREFERRED SMALLER FISH WHY IS THAT? WELL THE YOUNGER FISH TASTE BETTER FOR ONE, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY
THE LARGE FEMALES CARRY ROE THROUGHOUT A GOOD PORTION OF THE YEAR.
THE ROE ITSELF IS TOXIC. IT IS NOT SAFE TO HANDLE WITH BARE HANDS MUCH LESS CONSUME.
HOWEVER I IMAGING ONE PROBABLY DOESN'T GIVE THAT TOO MUCH CONCERN WHEN ALL YOU WANT IS A PHOTO
AFTER WHICH SHE WILL BE GROUND UP INTO FERTILIZER.



And BTW - at least one of the pictures posted was taken in 1968 in Louisiana!

Populations are fine....even the TPWD biologists are saying it. (see email response above) Populations were fine 5 years ago when this new rule was imposed.

COMPARED TO WHAT?
HISTORICAL RANGE WAS 13 STATES
EXTINCT IN 3 STATES
CRITICALLY ENDANGERED IN 3 STATES
IMPERILED IN 5 OTHER STATES

I HAVE NO DOUBT SOME POPULATIONS ARE IMPROVING AND SOME MAY BE DECLINING, BUT I HAVE NOT HEARD ANY TPW BIOLOGIST MAKING ANYTHING APPROACHING
A BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE "POPULATIONS ARE FINE" IF THERE IS ANY COMMON THEME FROM EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE READ IT IS THAT ADDITIONALLY STUDY WOULD GIVE A MORE COMPLETE PICTURE. ON ANOTHER NOTE, THE BIOLOGIST DON'T MAKE THE RULES. THAT'S THE COMMISSION'S JOB. THEY HAVE TO COME UP WITH RULES THAT ARE PRACTICAL AND ENFORCABLE. AGAIN MAYBE THIS IS NOT A GOOD RULE, IT SOUNDS VERY OPEN ENDED TO ME. HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK THE BOW FISHING COMMUNITY ARE GOING TO WIN ANY SUPPORT PUTTING WORDS IN THE MOUTH'S OF TPW BIOLOGISTS AND RUNNING AROUND SAYING THE COMMISSION ARE A BUNCH OF "TREE HUGGERS" ON THE CONTRARY THEY ARE ALL SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS PEOPLE APPOINTED BY ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE GOVERNORS IN THE COUNTRY VOLUNTEERING THEIR TIME.


I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with only taking one alligator gar per day, and neither does any other bowfisherman I know.
WHY DID THE TBA OPPOSE THE BAG LIMIT?

The problem is, we knew as soon as we gave an inch they would take a mile; which is EXACTLY what is happening now even though there is zero evidence to prove that more regulations are needed.
WHAT TYPE OF EVIDENCE WOULD MAKE YOU SUPPORT FURTHER REGULATION?

SEE STATISTICS ABOVE FROM STATES THAT DIDN'T FUND RESEARCH UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE


Another little fun fact: it takes 53 hours on average to harvest an alligator gar with a bow. The only bowfishing guides I know that have a "guarantee policy" only guarantee a chance to be within range of an alligator gar in a 3 day period. There are several rod and reel anglers that boast a 100% success rate on alligator gar. There are also combination bowfishing/rod and reel guides that prefer the R&R fishing, because its much easier to put one in the boat that way. I sure love gator gar meat, and sitting on my [censored] in a boat with a fishing pole in my hands beats the heck out of standing up for 50 hours with my bow at the ready in the hot sun waiting on one to roll. I think I may have just convinced myself to go buy a serf rod and a 3 lb shop hammer and take the easy way out.

Two more points....One, the TBA doesn't host the Gar Bonanza....
I STAND CORRECTED ON THIS, APOLOGIES FOR MY CONFUSION IT'S LISTED UNDER TOURNAMENTS ON TBA'S WEBPAGE AND FACEBOOK



and as far as not "suggesting any other forms of regulation" we proposed that they study populations and impose regulations on a waterbody by waterbody basis, just like they do with several other species of fish, instead of a blanket regulation covering the entire state. I WOULD TEND TO AGREE THAT THIS SOUNDS LIKE THIS WOULD BE OPTIMAL, BUT DO THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES AND FUNDING TO DO THIS?

Until there is scientific proof backed by biologists and not merely the whim of a commissioner; any further regulations, especially the ones that have been proposed, are unneeded. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION ALTHOUGH IT DOES NOT APPEAR YOU HAVE ANY DATA TO SUPPORT YOURS. I AM MERELY SAYING THAT HISTORICALLY THIS FISH HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE FOR AT LEAST THE LAST 50 YEARS. MOST OF THAT WAS DUE TO HABITAT LOSS. (DAMING OF RIVERS) TEXAS AND LOUISIANA ARE HOME TO WHAT'S LEFT. THE FISH HAS NOT BEEN ADEQUATELY STUDIED TO GIVE A COMPLETE PICTURE OF IT'S SUSTAINABILITY IN TEXAS, BUT TPW COMMISSION, THEIR BIOLOGISTS AND MOST PUBLIC COMMENTATORS RECENTLY THOUGHT THAT PROBLEM WAS BAD ENOUGH TO PASS THE SMALLEST FRESH WATER BAG LIMIT IN THE STATE. NOW, THE COMMISSION IS SEEKING COMMENT FOR ADDITIONAL REGULATIONS DUE TO CONCERNS THEIR BIOLOGISTS EXPRESSED ABOUT REDUCED SPAWNING ACTIVITY. DUE TO THE LONGEVITY AND LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES THIS SPECIES TO REACH MATURITY IT WOULD TAKE DECADES FOR A STUDY TO SEE AN ENTIRE LIFE CYCLE. BY THAT TIME THE POPULATION COULD CRASH THROUGH THE FLOOR JUST LIKE THE PADDLEFISH DID BEFORE ANYONE REALIZED WHAT WAS GOING ON. THOSE PADDLEFISH ARE GONE AND NOTHING SHORT OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF TAX PAYER DOLLARS AND DECADES WILL BRING THEM BACK. AS THE ONE OF THE LARGEST IF NOT THE LARGEST HARVESTER OF THIS SPECIES, THE BOW FISHING COMMUNITY NEEDS TO EXERCISE SOME SENSITIVITY TOWARDS THE IMPACT THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE HAVING RATHER THAN PAST TACTICS OF SAYING "I KNOW EVERYTHING IS FINE, I KNOW BETTER THAN TPW AND DON'T GIVE AN INCH"

You guys are so missing the point. You want us to stand behind an appointed commission that is not listening to science from their own biologists. But they listen to them about red snapper numbers when it's in their interest. I.E. going against the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. TPWD doesn't trust USFW numbers on snapper and we don't trust TPWD commission making rules against or even for science.

SlimJim, there isn't a decline. And the only incline in fishing pressure is from R&R. There is not an increase in bowfishing. It's holding steady, as it always has. We gain members but loose just as many. Prove that there are more bowfishermen. If there is then prove that there are more alligator gar bowfishermen because I'm telling you that that is a niche sport. Very few stay at it.





Right........This forums is full of your posts from before the bag limit went into effect claiming issues with the TPW's studies at that
time too. Essentially calling for no regulation in the absence of the perfect study.

Here is the statment TPW gave to the press at that time.

�Alligator gar populations are
declining across much of their
native range across the country.
Habitat changes and over-harvest
are thought to be the reason�

You can nit pick the past studies or the current studies all you want, but it seams your overall stance has not changed since before the bag limit. No regulation without a perfect complete study on all bodies of water with the burden of proof on everyone else but the bow fishing community.

With all due respect, you are giving the appearance that you are interested in being given a blank check to hunt without any form of
restriction on public lands because you are somehow special.

I hope this is not the case, but I would like to see you state otherwise.

If the population crashes like it has in most other states are you going to starting writing checks every year to re-stock for the next 50 years? No, if the state even chooses to fund re-stocking efforts it will fall on backs of the taxpayers and other fishermen in the form of higher license fees and less funds for their targeted species.

In Texas, increased fishing pressure for alligator gar and future degradation of river and estuarine habitats potentially threaten existing alligator gar populations. Observed declines in other states and vulnerability to overfishing indicate a conservative approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. It is recommended that the TPWD join other states in managing alligator gar populations by significantly reducing harvest and protecting spawning and nursery areas. A management strategy that emphasizes protection of
7
adult fish, while allowing some harvest of juvenile with more limited harvest of trophy fish seems most appropriate for the goal of ensuring population stability while allowing utilization of the resource.

SlimJim, there isn't a decline. And the only incline in fishing pressure is from R&R. There is not an increase in bowfishing. It's holding steady, as it always has. We gain members but loose just as many. Prove that there are more bowfishermen. If there is then prove that there are more alligator gar bowfishermen because I'm telling you that that is a niche sport. Very few stay at it.