Randy,

Thanks for sharing that with us. It infuriates me to see an honest man get the shaft like you did. I can't stand to see that level of incompetance in someone with that much power. It really sucks, and I admire the fact that you didn't go off and beat that [censored] like you owned him. I, personally, probably wouldn't have handled it with so much class. You are a true gentleman.

With that said, I would suggest maybe paying for an independent company to re-test you. If you're anything like me, the prize money matters very little, compared to the slander of your integrity. I understand that times are tough for everyone, and money doesn't grow on trees, but it seems a small price to pay to clear your name. I'd even be willing bet that you could even take legal action, as this caused you undo personal distress.

This topic has only been up for a few hours, and already there are two or three examples of how a lie detector, lied. I'm sure they just wanted to make the event fair and keep everyone honest, but baseing a DQ and all the public humility that goes with it, solely on such an unreliable method seems asinine to me.

[This message has been edited by Mudcat (edited 06-11-2003).]

OOPS! Got too worked up and I blundered. Carry on...

[This message has been edited by Mudcat (edited 06-11-2003).]

THANK YOU MUDCAT MAY YOU WIN A BOAT SOON I WOULD ENJOY THAT FOR YOU, MAY YOU FEEL THE RUSH OF A BIG OLD SACK ,FISH DEEP LATER IN THE DAY, 20+ DEPEND ON YOUR GRAPH. I AM WAITING FOR GORDON TO GET HOME FROM VACATION I KNOW I RUINED HIS TRIP AND FOR THAT I FEEL BAD IT IS NOT HIS FAULT .IT WAS EXPLAINED 300 A POP AND THEY WILL DO IT AS MANY TIMES AS IT TAKES IT HAS TO BE THROUGH GOD AND THE BOX LETS SEE 10 TIMES 300= 3000 BONES WELL THEY WILL REFRAISE AND MOVE THE QUESTIONS AROUND . I HAVE A SMALL PROBLEM WITH THAT (NOW THATS CHEETING )I WILL DO WHAT EVER I HAVE TO DO PUT A WIRLESS CAMERA IN MY BOAT .HECK PUT A KID IN THEAR AND LET ME TEACH HIM SOMTHING . WITH EVERY GOOD WORD YOU ALL FISHERMAN AND THANK YOU MUDCAT FOR YOUR PRAISE YOU GUYS HELP ME GET BACK TO OLD RANDY OF A WEEK AGO I OWE YOU GUYS MY LIFE GOD BLESS YOU RANDY CISLER

I OWE A VERY SPECIAL THANKS TO MY PARTNER AND BEST FRIEND SHAWN STEPHENS , THANK YOU SHAWN FOR TELLING ME EVERY HOUR THAT I AM WAY BETTER THAN I AM FEELING . WITHOUT YOU LIFE JUST WOULDENT BE THE SAME GOD BLESS YOU AND VALRIE I LOVE YOU BOTH (IF ANY ONE WOULD LIKE DETAIL ABOUT ME THIS IS THE GUY YOU ASK) YOUR LIFETIME FRIEND RANDY

I HAD A JOB WHERE I HAD TO TAKE A POLYGRAPH TEST EVERY 6 MONTHS AND AN ADITIONAL TEST IF ANY INCIDENT WARRANTED IT. AFTER 9 YEARS OF THESE TESTS AND THE MANAGEMENT I SAID ENOUGH.THE TEST ITSELF IS VERY SUBJECTIVE. I WOULD ESTIMATE 90 % OF THE VALUE OF THE TEST LIES IN THE ADMINISTRATOR. HOW HE PHRASES QUESTIONS AND HOW YOU RESPOND. I ALSO BELIEVE THEY TELL YOU SOMEWHERE YOU ARE LYING JUST TO GET YOUR RESPONSE. I KNOW ITS HARD TO KEEP YOUR COMPOSURE BUT IT TRULY HELPS. ALSO KEEP REPEATING THE TRUTH AS MANY TIMES AS YOU CAN.THEY TOLD ME I DID SOME DAMAGE DURING ONE OF OUR WORK STOPAGES AND I LAUGHED AT THE GUY SAYING YOU GOTTA DO BETTER THAN THAT. HE TOLD MY BOSS I DID IT AND I LAUGHED AT HIM TOO. THEY KNEW BETTER.
I KNOW HOW EVERYONE TAKING A POLY FEELS AND IT WILL GET BETTER. JUST BELIEVE IN YOURSELF AND GO ON WITH YOUR LIFE. GOOD LUCK

First off thanks to JP for not deleting this thread as it is something we all need to think about ---- also you'll note that some tournament circuits (I won;t mention which)do not mention POLYGRAPH at the National/Corporate Level (they leave it up to the independent contractors they use as directors to make that call) Simply put they don't touch polygraph with a ten-foot-pole because they know if they are ever taken to court they are in trouble, ask any lawyer. They leave that liability to their TD's, there needs to be a deterent and the best one from a legal perspective is either a straight draw format or a Pro-Am format and I'll bet we see a resurgence in those formats soon (that may or may not be inside info) once the innocent people like Randy start to fail these so-called "tests" - and when I say innocent I mean I could tell you I watched Randy catch fish for at least an hour on saturday (which I did) but you guys know what, his reputation as a stand-up guy, who would never in a million years cheat, precedes him and if you asked ALL the people that have ever fished against or with him and taken the time to meet him they'd say the same thing, and Gordon and Eldon both know that too - which is what makes this such a tragedy. Randy - Gods Speed my brother!

I'll go incognito for now as I'd rather not divulge which circuit I was speaking of above.

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Weener Dog Fan !

I just wanted to post this about Randy Cisler. I recently have taken up a love for tournament fishing and bass fishing in general. I can personally thank Randy Cisler and our friend Shawn Stephens. The teaching and mentoring they have given me has been invaluable to me. After spending time on the water with Randy, I can tell you that this man loves the sport of bass fishing and I would even go as far as saying that bass fishing is his life. Cheating and tarnishing his reputation is the very last thing that Randy would do! Randy, this may not matter to a lot of people coming from a beginner in tournament fishing but know that I know you are not a cheater nor are you a liar. I just hope that the people who do matter realize the injustice that has been imposed on you!
Randy, Thank you for the many wonderful days we have spent on the water and you are in my prayers.

Brian McCarty

This whole polygraph issue is a ?Catch 22? situation. You have to have them, but they can jump up and bite you on the butt. Both the contestant and the tournament director can be put in jeopardy.

As a long time tournament director and tournament fishermen, I have personally taken several, but I have been in charge of deciding who has taken a bunch of them.

Years ago, cheating was rampant in a lot of tournaments. It was to the point that it wasn?t a contest of who was the best on a given day, but who could cheat the best. Along came polygraphs, and the cheating seemed to die back considerably.

I?m assuming that most polygraph examiners do a lot more criminal work than fishing tournaments, which has them associating a lot more with criminals than ?good ole boys.? Some of them deal with so many ?scumbags? that I believe they are generally suspicious of everybody they test.

Of course this isn?t true in all cases, because a lot of polygraph examiners are good old boys themselves, but there are some that seem to want to ?get something? on everybody they test. I have used some examiners in the past that had problems with everybody they tested, which resulted in us having to test partners, spend more money for extra examinations, slow up the tournament, etc. etc. Once you figure out who these guys are, you try not to use them anymore.

Way back when, I talked to Ray Scott about starting a tournament circuit that was to be strictly in Texas. He was all for it, until I informed him that it would be a team circuit. He didn?t think the team format would have the integrity that was needed to have a reputable circuit.

In Texas, team circuits are very popular, and I don?t know if a draw format would ever have the popularity, therefore polygraphs are a ?have to have? situation.

This whole discussion has centered on an honest contestant being screwed over by a polygraph. What about a dishonest contestant passing a polygraph?

There are some individuals and teams in the state that have a better success rate (winning percentage) than Kevin Van Dam, Jay Yelas, and Mark Davis, all combined!! A lot of people say they cheat, but they continue to pass polygraphs. Personally I don?t know, but it keeps ?rumor control? running rampant.

I do know this, and that is some military and intelligence personnel are trained to ?beat the box.? In addition, I?ve been told that some hardened criminal types (without any conscience) can pass a polygraph easily. I?ve also heard that some medications can render a test useless.

I don?t? think there is any alternative available right now, and until somebody builds a better ?mousetrap,? we will be regulated to using polygraphs.
In any case, this makes for an interesting thread.

I hope than anybody who is innocent and has been cheated by a polygraph will be vindicated.

Jim Murray

My opinion is: If a tournament is going to use a polygraph test then...use three different machines and three different testers. If you are going to stake an honest man's reputation on a machine. Then give him an honest shake.
You could do this by giving the fisherman three different 15 minute test. Don't talk about any results until all three are over. Because if you tell him he failed the first one, then in my opinion you screw up the whole process..
I'm trying to get this across. I don't know if I'm making any sense.

The polygraph is a giant mind game. The pre-interview is the biggest part. Your problems start as soon as you step into the room with the tester. The moment you walk in, this "pro" is watching your eyes, the way you sit down, watching if you fidget in your chair. The interrogator will say things like "everybody is basically a liar" "what kind of liar are you?" "have you ever told just a little white lie to your wife?"
Ok, how many husbands have not told a little white lie to their wives?
Man, this guy is trained to take you all the way back to your childhood.
You are honestly sitting there thinking. My God, I did steal that piece of candy when I was 3. I am a crook.

Another thing is before you even take the test or agree to the test. You will be led down the path. Things will be said to you like "well we think you may know more than you are telling us" "if you don't agree to the test, then we are going to presume your guilt"...So you are thinking: "I'm an honest man, I've done nothing wrong. I'll show these people." Well I'm telling you, don't get caught up in that.
Then they start strapping all these wires on you, telling you not to move or breath too hard because "IF YOU MOVE, YOU MAY FAIL THE TEST!!" You see the anxiety level there?? Stay away from it. I don't think you can be fired for refusing a polygraph. There have been many professional FBI agents flunk polygraphs 8 or 9 times out of ten. So a regular guy off the street doesn't have a chance. Most fisherman haven't been trained in the art of psychological warfare.

I hope that what I've written here can be understood.

It's a fact that innocent people all over the country are being tarnished with these test everyday.

By the way, my test results as part of that criminal investigation was "inconclusive".
I was thinking, "what the heck are they talking about?"
Just remember, in a criminal investigation they don't even have to tell you correct results. They tell you whatever they need to tell you. That "inconclusive" bull is just something to string you along in the event they need to get you hooked up to the machine again. I was only being questioned as a possible witness and I had to go through all this stuff.

Anyway in conclusion. Stay away from polygraph tests. No good can come of it.

Dang, This is A Touchy One

As you could imagine, I have quite a stake in this argument, as anything I say is carried with the tournaments that I direct for the TFF.

Okay, here goes: I personally do not believe the validity of polygraph examinations. They have been proven, at fault, time and time again. Numerous times they have "proven" an innocent man guilty, and cleared a guilty man of something that I knew to be true!

I think that every organization should do as we do. It has proven itself to work many times.
At any given tournament of ours, there are 10-20 boats that are considered "wardens"

Those guys carry the responsibility of watching over competitors, and reporting any "suspicious findings" for further investigation.
Now, some folks think this process may be jaded and biased. Well, I tell you what, in my years in this industry, and with all of the people I have met, I firmly believe that most fishermen are good hearted honest people. I would much rather have one of my peers judge my actions, than someone with an electronic device, that has been proven time and time again to not work.

So that's right folks, the TFF does not administer polygraphs. But, just remember when you're fishing one of our events, that Anyone around you, may be watching your actions. And that to me, means much more than a polygraph exam or some man playing judge and jury all by himself.

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Daniel Cooper
Texas Fishing Forum
Tournament Director
tournaments@texasfishingforum.com

Warden Cooper....finally a good idea!!!
For the rest of you here is my take on the lie box.First and foremost it is an investigative tool to point people in the right direction.It should NEVER stand on it`s own.I quit tournament fishing before they became so popular but I would be very hesitant about fishing under those conditions.The results ARE admissable in court under several conditions.One of these is if both parties agree that it is usable. That is exactly what you have done when you agree to the tournament rules upon entry.
It seems to me that the very people that you are trying to catch are the ones most likely to give a false pass and the people that you are trying to protect are the ones most like to get nervous and fail. These are pretty poor odds as you can tell from the previous posts.
My initial thoughts are for those of you fishing these tournaments get together and threaten a boycott if they don`t shape up. There is just too much of a chance for damaged reputations.Perhaps several of you that know someone that has been damaged can pony up a few bucks apiece and help him or her towards a consultation fee for a nasty lawyer. I`ll be willing to bet that one threatening letter from O.J.s legal team will have the desired results. There is no tournament organization that can withstand a good legal attack.
Warden Cooper is right on. You fishermen should be policing yourselves if you ever want to attain true credibilty.I don`t know how many posts I have read on other boards where a angler comes back from a tournament and gets on the net bitching about rules infractions they encountered but never turned in???? I hope you get thid worked out because as long as these tests are given there are going to be innocent people damged.
As a last resort you can think about a well worded letter to the tournament sponsers.Let the director read it before you mail it and it will probably save postage.
The ball is in your court and it`s up to you. It will not get any better if you don`t do it yourselves.

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THE DOG

Warden Cooper....finally a good idea!!!
For the rest of you here is my take on the lie box.First and foremost it is an investigative tool to point people in the right direction.It should NEVER stand on it`s own.I quit tournament fishing before they became so popular but I would be very hesitant about fishing under those conditions.The results ARE admissable in court under several conditions.One of these is if both parties agree that it is usable. That is exactly what you have done when you agree to the tournament rules upon entry.
It seems to me that the very people that you are trying to catch are the ones most likely to give a false pass and the people that you are trying to protect are the ones most like to get nervous and fail. These are pretty poor odds as you can tell from the previous posts.
My initial thoughts are for those of you fishing these tournaments get together and threaten a boycott if they don`t shape up. There is just too much of a chance for damaged reputations.Perhaps several of you that know someone that has been damaged can pony up a few bucks apiece and help him or her towards a consultation fee for a nasty lawyer. I`ll be willing to bet that one threatening letter from O.J.s legal team will have the desired results. There is no tournament organization that can withstand a good legal attack.
Warden Cooper is right on. You fishermen should be policing yourselves if you ever want to attain true credibilty.I don`t know how many posts I have read on other boards where a angler comes back from a tournament and gets on the net bitching about rules infractions they encountered but never turned in???? I hope you get thid worked out because as long as these tests are given there are going to be innocent people damged.
As a last resort you can think about a well worded letter to the tournament sponsers.Let the director read it before you mail it and it will probably save postage.
The ball is in your court and it`s up to you. It will not get any better if you don`t do it yourselves.

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THE DOG

DOG - your absolutely correct in stating the we as agnler bascially agree to be bound by the polygraph (when we enter a tournament) though I think any lawyer would tell you the wording most circuits use is insuffecient when it comes to legal action.

The Real injustice comes when Tournament Circuits not only trust their own Polygraph tech to be 100% accurate but then take the word of ANY polygraph done on ANY Circuit? Who Guarantees any standards when it comes to how any club conducts a polygraph, and then the participant is excluded from other circuits. Obviously this is a downward spiral guys -

Great topic. I will admit I don't have a solution. Mr. Cooper has a good thing going with the warden approach in tournaments. Maybe just the fact that someone is watching would be enough of a deterrent to keep someone from cheating.
The thing is, you aren't going to stop all the cheating. I'm hoping the majority of the anglers fishing friendly tournaments will be stand up individuals and not cheat.
Then again, I've seen some people cheat over 20 bucks.

I don't have a good answer for tournaments.
I do know polygraph test are evil.

[This message has been edited by Tx-Weeble (edited 06-12-2003).]

HI GUYS I WANT TO GIVE THANKS TO YOU WHO KNOW ME AND BELIEVE IN ME YOU ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE KEEPING ME ALIVE . A COPULE OF YOU HAVE LAID TEARS IN MY EYES BUT I KNOW I DESERIVE YOUR WORDS FOR MY FATHER WAS RIGHT AGAIN BE A MAN OF YOUR WORD, YOU WILL SE HE WOULD TELL ME . I SEE DADDY THANK YOU GET YOUR CHILDREN TO LISTEN TO YOU FOR YOU ARE THE SEED OF THE FUTURE. PLANT IT EARLY MY FATHER DID . I AM RIDING A EMOTIONAL ROLLERCOASTER LAST NIGHT WAS MY FIRST 6 HOUR STRETCH OF SLEEP SINCE SATURDAY. THANKS TO FISHERMAN WHO CARE I HAVE A CHANCE . IF ONE HAD NO SUPPORT IN THIS SITUATION IT COULD BE DEADLY. MANY OF YOU HAVE NO IDEA ,AND I PRAY YOU NEVER GO THROUGH THIS. RANDY