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Guadalupe Trout Report #2
#8656101
03/02/13 09:18 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660
1st Class Tackle
OP
Extreme Angler
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OP
Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660 |
Hey gang, I figured some of you may be interested in this. Hey gang I just had my repeat Trout trip from the boys voer at safishingforum.com, I didnt think we could out do the last one but vwola. The trip includes three Elite Angler awards, three fish 20" or over, proof the trout reproduce in the guadalupe and lots of fish photos as well as a story by photos just click the link and scroll down a bit. Enjoy!!! You can also look for the upcoming story Trout Report in Lonestar Outdoor News which will have information about the Trout fishing along the guadalupe river and you may even see some phots or people you recognize.  Tight Lines!!! Trout Report
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8657802
03/03/13 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,845
kodys'papa
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,845 |
Nice report and photos...
Hooking a fish is like playing string with a cat. The exact size, shape, color of string matters less than how you wiggle it- and little cats are easier to fool than big ones. John Gierach
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8658719
03/03/13 08:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
A word to the wise about Berkley power worms which are scented products. All Trout caught with scented products must be immediately released. Scented products are considered bait under the regulations. One of your friends sacalaitman says he caught his first keeper in the TTZ. He says he did this using power worms, he is admitting to all who read this article that he broke the law. Also putting any fish on a stringer, even if you release it later, is a no no if it was caught on bait or scented products like power worms. Read the regulations again closely.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo Roberts; 03/03/13 08:44 PM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8659472
03/04/13 12:36 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660
1st Class Tackle
OP
Extreme Angler
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OP
Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660 |
Wow, I definitly dont want anyone Im fishing with on the wrong side of the law. I think in this case its more of a misunderstanding or a thin line. I did some looking around and I cant find anywhere that says scent is illegal. I was able to find the following. TPWD Website Regs TPWD Website Special regulation zone In Comal County from the second bridge crossing on River Road upstream to the easternmost bridge crossing on FM 306, minimum length limit on rainbow and brown trout is 18 inches and daily bag limit is one fish. All trout harvested must be caught on artificial lures. TPWD Getting Started guide with definitions TPWD Getting Started Guide Artificial Lure: Any lure (including flies) with hook or hooks attached that is man maid and used as bait while fishing. Pg 36 top left. Now I dont site all this info to prove your wrong, just to simply prove that it wasent without research that the decision to use this bait was made. If you dont mind please fix my ignorance and send me the link with the correct information. I would greatly appreciate it. I will make sure that info is passed on. As for the stringer I completly agree. Im sorry it is distastfull but we did our best not to handle her and to make sure she was in clean water and not thrashing around. I assure you this method was by far better then the amount of time she would have spent out of the water being handled and droped and left floping while cameras, measuring devices and angles were figured out. As you can see she has no damage to her body from impacts and she swam away under her own power. This method seems to be the best way to get good pictures without having to hug these slimy beast's. I apologize for any miss handling that may have happened during this trip but the focus was a little bit different. We were tasked with taking images for an upcoming story so it was imperative that we got the shots. Normally the fish are handled as little as possible and always go straight back to the drink. We care about our fishery and I promise you we do our dudiligance to attempt to manage and care for the fishery. CPR'ING all our fish and leaving only foot prints arenet just words to us we live by them. Heck since we slayed them we agreed to give the river a rest so that we dont shock that section for a few days. Now thats fishing knowldge. Just becouse you can catchem all doesnt mean you should. I cant tell you how many times I hear storys of fihserman saying how one day they destroyed the blah blah blahs becouse they were all stacked up on a hole. Well guess what they were never there again if you took them all home. So point is we arent trying to do anything wrong and that certainly isnt the image we want people to have about us as people. Sincerely, Alex R. Tight Lines!!!
Last edited by First Class Tackle; 03/04/13 12:46 AM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8659636
03/04/13 01:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
Most anglers are trying to do the right thing, but it is complicated when you are talking about the exceptions to state wide regulations.
There are 4 places you need to look to understand the regulations for Rainbow Trout in the state of Texas. First the general regulations (not in the Guadalupe TTZ) on page 41. Then you look to the exceptions and on p42 you will see Guadalupe River. From there you are supposed to look in 2 more places. There is the Trout 1 reg on p45, but also you will notice the "#" after Guadalupe River and at the bottom of p42 you will see "# See pg38 for boundaries under pole and line". Looking on page 38 under Pole and Line, the third notation:
"Game and nongame fish maybe taken by pole and line, except that in the Guadalupe River in Comal County from the second bridge crossing on River Road upstream to the easternmost bridge crossing on FM 306, rainbow and brown trout may not be retained when taken by any method except artificial lures. In this area only, artificial lures cannot contain or have attached either whole or portions, living or dead, of organisms such as fish, crayfish, insects, (grubs, larve or adults) or worms, any other animal or vegetable material, OR SYNTHETIC SCENTED MATERIALS. This does not prohibit the use of artificial lures that contain componets of hair or feathers. It is an offense to possess rainbow and brown trout while fishing with any other device in that part of the Guadalupe River defined in this paragraph."
This has actually changed from the last time I read these regulations no longer mentioning that "Any trout caught using any other method other than artificial lures must be immediately returned to the water." I am not sure when that changed. I wish TPWD would but up signs on 306 and River Road so anybody driving in the area would be put on notice what the rules are without having to figure them out in the fish and game regulations. And technically all anglers and hunters are responsible for knowing all fish and game regulations before the enguage in fishing or hunting. Anyway it is confusing and that is why so many anglers really don't know the full regulations in the Trophy Trout Zone and we have so much inadvertant poaching. The bait and scented products regulations are in place because TPWD actually wanted no bait fishing for Trout in the TTZ, but local river owners raised a big fuss saying their kids could no longer fish for Perch, Bass, and Catfish with bait and accidentally catch a trout without being in violation of the law. And unfortunately this created a loophole that technically allows baitfishing for Trout if they are released. And many of the locals take advantage of this loophole to purposely fish for trout with bait or scented products, created much more delayed mortality than would be caused if those fish were caught using lures. I hope that clears things up, let your members know.
As far as taking pictures holding your Trophies, may I recommend always using a net. The best ones have a molded rubber basket versus nylon or string. Removed your lure from the Trout preferably with the fish still in the water in the net. Then have the person with the camera get it ready. Now you are ready to take your picture. Have the angler first grab the fish's tail just ahead of the tailfin and then reach under it's throat with the other hand supporting it's head, throat, and the first part of it's belly. Most of your guys are doing a fairly good job of that. There is one photo with the angler pressing his fingers in on the gills, and others that hold the fish vertically from it's jaw, this is bad technique and can increase the chance of delayed mortality. Now nothing is perfect. Sometimes no matter what you do, the trout could be hooked in it's gills, or suffer some other injury from which it can not recover. Even catch and release can be a blood sport. It's all part of learning curve, what the regs are and what is best for the fish and the fishery to allow that each fish is caught and enjoyed by as many anglers as possible.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo Roberts; 03/04/13 03:13 AM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: Jimbo Roberts]
#8660260
03/04/13 03:38 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660
1st Class Tackle
OP
Extreme Angler
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OP
Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660 |
A word to the wise about Berkley power worms which are scented products. All Trout caught with scented products must be immediately released. Scented products are considered bait under the regulations. One of your friends sacalaitman says he caught his first keeper in the TTZ. He says he did this using power worms, he is admitting to all who read this article that he broke the law. Also putting any fish on a stringer, even if you release it later, is a no no if it was caught on bait or scented products like power worms. Read the regulations again closely.
Jimbo I think the term BRAKING THE LAW here is a bit on the stern side of what the said person actually did, also he never said he kept the fish just that he simply finnaly caught one. I understand your concern as president of GRTU, However I assure at worst this was a misunderstanding. I imagine your references are straight out of the regulations book so IM currently looking for mine. There is also an email in bound for TPWD. Tight Lines!!!
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: Jimbo Roberts]
#8660358
03/04/13 03:56 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660
1st Class Tackle
OP
Extreme Angler
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OP
Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660 |
Most anglers are trying to do the right thing, but it is complicated when you are talking about the exceptions to state wide regulations.
There are 4 places you need to look to understand the regulations for Rainbow Trout in the state of Texas. First the general regulations (not in the Guadalupe TTZ) on page 41. Then you look to the exceptions and on p42 you will see Guadalupe River. From there you are supposed to look in 2 more places. There is the Trout 1 reg on p45, but also you will notice the "#" after Guadalupe River and at the bottom of p42 you will see "# See pg38 for boundaries under pole and line". Looking on page 38 under Pole and Line, the third notation:
"Game and nongame fish maybe taken by pole and line, except that in the Guadalupe River in Comal County from the second bridge crossing on River Road upstream to the easternmost bridge crossing on FM 306, rainbow and brown trout may not be retained when taken by any method except artificial lures. In this area only, artificial lures cannot contain or have attached either whole or portions, living or dead, of organisms such as fish, crayfish, insects, (grubs, larve or adults) or worms, any other animal or vegetable material, OR SYNTHETIC SCENTED MATERIALS. This does not prohibit the use of artificial lures that contain componets of hair or feathers. It is an offense to possess rainbow and brown trout while fishing with any other device in that part of the Guadalupe River defined in this paragraph."
This has actually changed from the last time I read these regulations no longer mentioning that "Any trout caught using any other method other than artificial lures must be immediately returned to the water." I am not sure when that changed. I wish TPWD would but up signs on 306 and River Road so anybody driving in the area would be put on notice what the rules are without having to figure them out in the fish and game regulations. And technically all anglers and hunters are responsible for knowing all fish and game regulations before the enguage in fishing or hunting. Anyway it is confusing and that is why so many anglers really don't know the full regulations in the Trophy Trout Zone and we have so much inadvertant poaching. The bait and scented products regulations are in place because TPWD actually wanted no bait fishing for Trout in the TTZ, but local river owners raised a big fuss saying their kids could no longer fish for Perch, Bass, and Catfish with bait and accidentally catch a trout without being in violation of the law. And unfortunately this created a loophole that technically allows baitfishing for Trout if they are released. And many of the locals take advantage of this loophole to purposely fish for trout with bait or scented products, created much more delayed mortality than would be caused if those fish were caught using lures. I hope that clears things up, let your members know.
As far as taking pictures holding your Trophies, may I recommend always using a net. The best ones have a molded rubber basket versus nylon or string. Removed your lure from the Trout preferably with the fish still in the water in the net. Then have the person with the camera get it ready. Now you are ready to take your picture. Have the angler first grab the fish's tail just ahead of the tailfin and then reach under it's throat with the other hand supporting it's head, throat, and the first part of it's belly. Most of your guys are doing a fairly good job of that. There is one photo with the angler pressing his fingers in on the gills, and others that hold the fish vertically from it's jaw, this is bad technique and can increase the chance of delayed mortality. Now nothing is perfect. Sometimes no matter what you do, the trout could be hooked in it's gills, or suffer some other injury from which it can not recover. Even catch and release can be a blood sport. It's all part of learning curve, what the regs are and what is best for the fish and the fishery to allow that each fish is caught and enjoyed by as many anglers as possible.
Jimbo I pulled my 2012-2013 regs book. I checked all four of the pages you cited and I found nothing about the use of artificials with scent. I did find all four of the regs you quoted and after reading them none of them say anything about usinf an artificial lure with scent. I also got with my cohorts to discuss this and they actually had done some research of their own previusly. Apearently after several covnersations with game wardens they were under the impression that the law is to ban power bait and other dough baits in the trophy zone. One warden argued it this way. "The power bait is more of a food the worm is casted by a mold and there for man made. Just trying to get to the bottom of all this. Can you please send me the link where it talks about artificials with scent. Thanks again, Alex R.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8660677
03/04/13 06:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
The angler said he caught his first "Keeper" in the TTZ, implying he retained that fish. If he released the fish there is no law broken. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words instead of something like "He caught his first Trout over 18" and released it after taking a few pictures". This regulation only applies to Trout retained in the TTZ when fishing with something other than artificial lures as defined by the regulation.
I am not trying to be argumentative or condemn what was done. I trying to educate you with information that has been told to me by TPWD game wardens and fishery managers. Most soft plastic lures are scented, and you mention the use of Berkley power worms to catch these Trout, which are impregnated with scent. That makes them a bait which is scented and requires the Trout to be released because of the regulations. Again I will repeat with a portion of the regs that applys which you have trouble understanding. This is taken from page 38 under the heading of pole and line and the third item:
"In this area only, artificial lures cannot contain or have attached either whole or portions, living or dead, of organisms such as fish, crayfish, insects (grubs, larvae or adults) or worms, any animal or vegetable material, or synthetic scented materials."
Also this does not mean that the scent must be synthetic, just that the lure was scented. Would you not agree the Berkley has made it reputation on adding scent to their soft plastic products? It's all the same when a fish smells it in the water. Thus those products may not be used to retain Trout caught in the TTZ. That would also include even hard plastic baits or spinnerbaits with scent sprayed on them. TPWD is trying to avoid lures that use scent to attact the Trout to them. I had this discussion with Steve Magnelia the past TPWD Guadalupe River Fisheries Biologist. I have not discussed this with the current TPWD Fisheries Biologist Marcos DeJesus. And maybe the wardens you talked have decided that enforcement of this regulation would be difficult and therefore not going to pursue it. I will talk to Marcos De Jesus in the morning to find out what the current level of enforcement reguarding this matter is today.
Oh and I am not President of GRTU, I am on the board of directors, and I am the GRTU V P of Fisheries.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo Roberts; 03/05/13 04:55 PM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8660760
03/04/13 09:11 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660
1st Class Tackle
OP
Extreme Angler
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OP
Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,660 |
I apologize if I sound defensive. I own a company in the industry and I make my name with my reputation. If I am in the wrong I want to know and I want to right any wrong because that is the right thing to do.
I agree better wording could have changed the whole course of this discussion, by keeper he meant his first Trout over 18" he was new to trout fishing being from Louisiana and he is a regular on the SA Fishing Forum. He had several trips to the tail race and each time had done better and better, as regulars over there we knew this but I can see how if you hadnt been a regular you wouldnt have known this. A friend of mine and me decided to join forces with him and hopefully put him on his first keeper sized Trout., which we did.
A friend of mine was able to come up with a link with the section you speak of even though I wasnt able to find it in the book. I'm sure its there I just wasnt able to spot it as I scanned through.
It makes me feel better to know that we didnt break any laws since we always practice catch and release and we did have a bass to boot. I honestly posted this here for the reproduction side of things. I have been a poster in this sub forum for years but not much as of late. I figured most would be less then pleased with the conventional methods but they at least would like to see the spawning info.
Again I apologize I dont mean any harm and I appreciate your professionalism during this discussion, thank you for your sharing of information. Lets see what the finale decision is and we will stick to that.
Sincerely, Alex R.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8661678
03/04/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
Saying all the Trout were released means no harm no foul. I hope I didn't upset you to much about what I said. It is my mission to educate everyone and I watch the forums for any misinformation. The stringer is the only other thing that can cause a problem even if they are to be released. Here's an e-mail reply from Marcos DeJesus,
Its hard to determine if any of these fish were harvested. They mentioned releasing fish throughout the thread, and talked about using the stringer only while they prepped the camera. The fine line here would be if by placing on the stringer, even for a short moment, would be considered possession or harvest. That would be a judgment call for a warden. Maybe these pictures and testaments serve as evidence; but they are not breaking a rule by fishing with those power worms if they are releasing the fish. I have copied warden McCall so he can maybe provide his opinion. Otherwise ,these anglers are praising the quality of this fishery, which is kudos to GRTU.
Marcos J. De Jess
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department
Inland Fisheries Management
District Supervisor
505 Staples Rd., San Marcos, TX 78666
Office: (512) 353-0072
FAX: (512) 353-7304
marcos.dejesus@tpwd.state.tx.us
I told him that all the trout were released so I don't think anything will come of it. The regulations are very tricky on this matter and I wish that TPWD would publish them in a way that you could read them in one place instead of having to follow them for several pages. You are not the first person to believe what they are doing is correct yet still don't completely understand the meaning and extent of the regulations. But it really comes down to the fact that You did the right thing by releasing these Trout.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo Roberts; 03/04/13 04:26 PM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8661806
03/04/13 04:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198
Anytimeoutdoors
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198 |
I'm the 3rd party in this fishing trip. "Fish master 150" and I have spoken with game wardens on many occasions while fishing on the Guadalupe. And I have asked several times wether or not the Berkeley 3" power worms are considers an artificial lure and I've been told by the wardens that they are. So to make sure I emailed tpw last nite and asked exacally this " are berkley 3" power worms considered an artificial lure? And are they legal to harvest trout from the trophy trout zone?" And this morning I got a response back from tpw. They said and I quote " yes the power worms are an artificial lure. And yes u can legally harvest an 18" trout from the trophy trout zone on a berkley power worm" end quote. So for all who think its wrong to use power worms to harvest trout. The law says different. Now we didn't harvest ant trout on our 2 floats thru the ttz. We are catch and release fisherman and carefully handled , then carefully took photos, and made sure to release a healthy trout back to its environment. This is not my first rodeo. I've been chasing trout on that river for over 15 years. And plan to as long as I'm still breathing. And I will actively fish with one rod and reel to insure a quick hook set that puts the hook in the lip were it should be. The small % of fish that swallow the hook will take my #12 hook with them to insure no fish are harmed. And can be caught for generations to come. "Powerworms reighn king for the rainbows in my book"
"AnytimeOutdoors Guide Service" More info 24/7 at anytimeoutdoors@gmail.com www.anytimeoutdoorsguideservice.comTPWD Acredited fisherman "Any time outdoors" "Slingin hooks or slingin arrows"
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8661845
03/04/13 05:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
There seems to be some difference in opinion between the TPWD Inland Fishery who is charge of the Guadalupe Trout fishery and the warden with who you are talking. Again technically the regs say no lure can have scent. With soft plastics not all are scented and maybe it's a problem of proving the lure was scented I'm not sure, but saying it was a berkley power worm should have made the point mute. Marcos said he would get back to me on this matter after talking to the chief of wardens McCall.
Jimbo
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8661901
03/04/13 05:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198
Anytimeoutdoors
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198 |
Well I clearly stated berkley 3"trout power worms in my email to inland fisheries of tpw. And they control the guad. I've been told that the regs state "scented material" and that refers to "power dough"or equivalent that's not preformed soft plastics. So it's a fine line and I guess u could call it a loop hole if u will. But I've got legal proof from the horses mouth so to speak. And I am we'll within my legal rites if I wanted to harvest a trout. But I don't harvest the trout. That's not what I'm out there for. I like to return to catch them another day.
"AnytimeOutdoors Guide Service" More info 24/7 at anytimeoutdoors@gmail.com www.anytimeoutdoorsguideservice.comTPWD Acredited fisherman "Any time outdoors" "Slingin hooks or slingin arrows"
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8662034
03/04/13 05:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61
Jimbo Roberts
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 61 |
First of all I am not challenging what you are told and I am not calling you a liar. If it is OK to use power worms then I will concede this point and apologize. Even I am sometimes wrong. I am relying of previous conversations with TPWD Inland Fisheries Managers and the game wardens on the regulations reguarding the differences between what is allowed and what is not. The Chief of Wardens is now involved and it is possible that this point is not being properly enforced or that they do not consider this a violation. I promise I will get back and post his opinion when I hear back from those involved.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo Roberts; 03/05/13 04:59 PM.
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Re: Guadalupe Trout Report #2
[Re: 1st Class Tackle]
#8662254
03/04/13 06:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198
Anytimeoutdoors
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 198 |
I agree with all u have just said and I too am only going by what the proper authorities have told me on numerous occasions. And that's all we can all go by. The problem with conversations in txt form is that context cannot be Seen on how a persons opinion is carried across. I never thought u were calling me a liar and I wasn't challenging u on the subject. I was just stating the facts of the matter. If indeed u find out Ive been misinformed. Please let me no. I don't break laws. And im as much of a conversationalist as u are. And mean no harm no foul. I look forward to what u find out. But either way point will be nill for we don't harvest the trout anyways from the trophy trout zone. And catch and release is permitted by any means of lure or bait. Thanks.
"AnytimeOutdoors Guide Service" More info 24/7 at anytimeoutdoors@gmail.com www.anytimeoutdoorsguideservice.comTPWD Acredited fisherman "Any time outdoors" "Slingin hooks or slingin arrows"
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