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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Neumie]
#6560746
08/25/11 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560
HERROUTDOORS
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560 |
Well, unfortunately you were detained for no reason. Under Spanish and Mexican Law perennial streams, regardless of navigability, were and are public. When Texas became a sovereign nation they acknowledged English Common Law which defined public waters by those that are navigable, but would still honor grants given out by Spain and Mexico under Spanish Law.
Sounds like you got some "hot shot" warden fresh out of the academy or one who caters to the land owners. Either way they don't fully understand the law or court cases that have set precedence.
We have a right to camp on the stream bed of the Devils River whether landowners like it or not. Not neccessarily, the laws are vague and open to interpretation. That is why we have the court system. What is considered a streambed is not cut and dry. One person says ok another says nay. Law 6. That Every One may Make Use of Ports, Rivers, and Public Roads.--Rivers, ports, and public roads belong to all men in common; so that strangers coming from foreign countries may make use of them, in the same manner as the inhabitants of the place where they are. And though the dominion or property (senorio) of the banks of rivers belongs to the owner of the adjoining estate, nevertheless, every man may make use of them to fasten his vessel to the trees that grow there, or to refit his vessel, or to put his sails or merchandise there. So fishermen may put and expose their fish for sale there, and dry their nets, or make use of the banks for all like purposes, which appertain to the art or trade by which they live. No where does it state you can camp or make temporary refuge. I'm not saying you will get convicted of trespassing, but it is not worth the hassle. This is from the LCRA: Q. Are the banks of the river privately owned? A. Almost all the land outside of the riverbed is privately owned. However, if a boater encounters a hazard, a log jam, low-water dam or some other obstruction, the boater may get out and scout for a safe route, or may portage if boating would become dangerous. Such intrusion on private land should be kept to a minimum. Says nothing about camping. This is from the LCRA: Q. Where can I camp? A. In general, it is best to camp at public parks. It is permissible to camp on an island or gravel bar in a riverbed, although that can be dangerous. Do not camp or access private property without the landowners permission. Keep noise to a minimum and leave your campsite cleaner than you found it. Notice it states within the riverbed, that does not mean outside the edge of the water. Your point of view may differ, but at that moment the Law Enforcement Officer has the call. Then it will goto to the courts if the officer thinks it is an offense. I obviously have a different point of view from you and that is fine, but I deal with trespass almost daily in my job. Bakers Crossing does not allow access from their property anymore unless you use Gerald or some other outfitters and they own the land around the bridge.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: HERROUTDOORS]
#6560925
08/25/11 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,257
Neumie
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,257 |
Where are you getting Law 6 from?
LRCA is just covering their butts from a potential lawsuit from private landowners.
I'm not arguing that campers must stay in the riverbed. However, the river bed consists of more than just what's under water at that moment. Right now there are miles of Guadalupe River bed that are dry, but that doesn't mean the adjacent property owner now owns those exposed river beds. It's still a "navigable" river and thus owned by the State.
"Water is life's matter and matrix, mother and medium. There is no life without water." -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." - Heraclitus
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Neumie]
#6561376
08/26/11 01:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560
HERROUTDOORS
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560 |
True, where the river bed ends and property begins is not set in stone, no pun intended. I choose not to chance it on the Devils anymore. I understand the land owners end though. The more river traffic there is the less of a jewel the Devils becomes.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: HERROUTDOORS]
#6561805
08/26/11 02:34 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,257
Neumie
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,257 |
The more river traffic there is the less of a jewel the Devils becomes. The perfect comment to end our conversation.
"Water is life's matter and matrix, mother and medium. There is no life without water." -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." - Heraclitus
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Neumie]
#6561966
08/26/11 03:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,551
R E N
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,551 |
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Neumie]
#6562002
08/26/11 03:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,396
texasflycaster
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,396 |
All accurate (four possible laws at least), but the laws that law enforcement goes by are completely up to them. They typically respond to land owners needs, since they live there, and let the courts sort it out. The "badlands" reputation on the Devil's is legendary, and could only be confirmed/denied by going there and doing it. Then, a complete and thorough report to us, with GPS coordinates would be to everyone's benefit. Well, unfortunately you were detained for no reason. Under Spanish and Mexican Law perennial streams, regardless of navigability, were and are public. When Texas became a sovereign nation they acknowledged English Common Law which defined public waters by those that are navigable, but would still honor grants given out by Spain and Mexico under Spanish Law.
Sounds like you got some "hot shot" warden fresh out of the academy or one who caters to the land owners. Either way they don't fully understand the law or court cases that have set precedence.
We have a right to camp on the stream bed of the Devils River whether landowners like it or not.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: texasflycaster]
#6562142
08/26/11 04:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 33,904
deerfeeder
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 33,904 |
I wouldn't be too concerned about running into any illegals on a fall trip, but much of that land has hunters on it from October into January.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae -- "Not for self, but for country."
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: deerfeeder]
#6598433
09/05/11 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559
Jarrett Latta
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559 |
done this trip for the last 8 years. You can no longer camp at bakers. Land has been leased so only access is from the bridge and state ride of way. Take out point is now 8 miles further down than it was last year. the only way to do this in 2 days is if you get dropped off at the natural area. You can camp on islands just dont step out on property that is connected. I was told by state park police that if it has water around it you are ok. You can say what you want about laws but that place has its own laws trust me. Pack as light as possible, no fires, no trash, and leave the place cleaner than you found it. If it looks like someone uses the area on the bank dont go anywhere near it, just paddle on by. things are changing down there. The state is in the process of trading the state natural area for another area downstream. after that, it will be camping on islands at your own risk for about 30 miles from bakers to the take out point downstream.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Jarrett Latta]
#6598476
09/05/11 06:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 45
bulldawg75
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 45 |
law suits and tickets are the least of your worries. Some people are down right crazy about property laws. Getting shot would be on the top of my list if these people are this anal about trespassing. You have to get out of the yak at some point nature calls. These type of people love the movie Deliverance. Unfortunately if there is an altercation with the antiquated laws they might not be unjust. Finding yourself on the wrong end of trespassing by a land owner could spell big trouble. They like to use terms like poaching and stealing property to define their position.
Last edited by bulldawg75; 09/05/11 07:01 PM.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: bulldawg75]
#6598550
09/05/11 07:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559
Jarrett Latta
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559 |
well i suggest using islands for everything and take all trash with you. We pack extremely light. Actually only one large float bag for everything. this way its easier to navigate shallow water, nothing to lose if you flip the canoe also. we do take 4 rods with us. Thats the real reason we go. I could care less about the canoing and rapids. I understand the landowners though. There are plenty of idiots that go down the river drunk, spilling trash out in the river and camping on private ground. Its the few that ruin it for the responsible.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Jarrett Latta]
#6599869
09/06/11 02:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,835
Daveg99
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,835 |
People blow the landowners and trespassing issue on the devils way out of proportion. They make it seems so scary and dangerous when in reality it isn't so bad.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Daveg99]
#6600239
09/06/11 03:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560
HERROUTDOORS
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,560 |
People blow the landowners and trespassing issue on the devils way out of proportion. They make it seems so scary and dangerous when in reality it isn't so bad. Only if you have never had a run in.
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: HERROUTDOORS]
#6601000
09/06/11 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559
Jarrett Latta
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559 |
Plan your trip right and be responsible on the river like it was your own and you won't have a run in
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: Jarrett Latta]
#6601625
09/06/11 05:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 44,410
butch sanders
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 44,410 |
screw the landowners they should be overjoyed their great great grandpa settled that area & passed it down to them makes me want to go & pull up on their property just to see what they will attempt if they pull a gun on people for being on their property, they are asking to have something really bad happen to them
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Re: Yak trip on the Devil's River
[Re: butch sanders]
#6603057
09/06/11 11:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559
Jarrett Latta
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,559 |
How would you like random people get out on your property and set up camp, build fires, then leave all their trash for you to find next time you went down to the river to enjoy it with your family. It amazes me why people don't see the issue here. It's not people on the river, it's people thinking they can do whatever they want because nobody is around. It's no different than someone driving down your street and dumping trash in your yard.
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