The title says it all.


Trout fascinate me, fascinate me. I'm not terribly smart when it comes to them, though I can find them. Funny thing is, when I find them, catching them is difficult. Enough, however, about my own trout woes, but I thought you ought to know why I'm obsessed.


Let me get around to what really bothers, excites, intrigues, and truly fascinates me about trout with regards to the Texas fishing scene. Not just fishing, but biology in general. I'll make a general statement and explain:

Trout could survive in Texas... in tailwaters all over the state, and in parts of rivers without dams, and in creeks and streams without dams. I also theorize that trout could survive in lakes. In short, there is no reason why trout can't survive in Texas currently, except for the fact that few think enough about it to do anything.


That's the theory. Here goes...

SPRINGS in this state form most of the rivers we have, and in this state - the Canadian, Red, Rio Grande, Pecos, etc. are not completely "Texas rivers". The Llano, San Marcos, Nueces, Frio, and Guadalupe come to mind. Springs also form the creeks we have. Springs from aquifers underground, which have relatively constant temperatures, because they are essentially out of the environment that causes surface water temperatures to fluctuate so greatly.

Many springs in Texas seem to flow cooler than 70 degrees. The headwaters of the San Marcos River, the spring there, I believe I have read as being a constant 68 degrees. Keep this in mind.


Tailwaters - the short, perhaps five-to-ten mile stretches of rivers below bottom-release dams that have colder waters and different ecological situations than the rest of a river. As an example, the Guadalupe River below Canyon Lake dam provides about ten miles, year round, of water that stays cold enough to support the trout that have been stocked there every year('02 flood excepted here), as well as a healthy population of gigantic stripers. The state record striper comes from here.

Elevations and geography make me wonder whether or not some parts of the state could support trout without a spring or the tailwater effect. It has many possible implications.

One example with regards to that... if trout(brown trout, you'll find out why in a moment) were stocked in Lake Merideth in the panhandle, couldn't they survive in the lake, if they were stocked large enough, year-round? Couldn't they perhaps reproduce?

Here's something fascinating...

Troutman1, I believe his name is, stated an interesting thing to this effect in the "Where are the fish" thread. He stated, as I knew, that Rainbows tolerate 75 degree water at the upper extreme, but what I didn't know was that BROWN trout tolerate 80 degree water extremes! Or about that. It is different with each fish, of course.

I didn't know that, I thought that they were both in the mid-70s for extreme temps.

I do know that some cutthroat trout (if not all, I don't really know) have similarly high temperatures that can be endured... the Rio Grande cutthroat, the Lahontan cutthroat come to mind(from past research).


Some of you please opine... this is an interesting subject.


Why isn't there a statewide organization dedicated to trout? Why is the sole trout organization focused on one river, and allied with Trout Unlimited, a nationwide organization that hardly even thinks about Texas?


Just some thoughts.


-TXFly.

Thanks for more detailed information Troutman. It really is quite a subject!

I apologize for my ignorance on the cuttthroat trout, I had thought there were subspecies that could tolerate higher temperatures.


I have two questions then, remaining, and these may be the last ones for some time.


First off, would it be possible to breed a trout tolerant to higher temperatures? For example, if you were to get 500 trout, put them in a controlled environment, slowly turn up the temperature until most of them had died and been removed to leave a few particular trout, do this in several batches, and then have those trout spawn, doing this over and over for 20 years(you could only get so many spawnings, I presume), couldn't you breed a tougher trout? Or is that wishful thinking?


Second, Troutman, you are perhaps as aware as anyone in Texas of the real school of thought out there that contends that yes Virginia, trout ARE in Texas, and perhaps even native trout, that we don't know about.

There are folks who apparently believe that portions of Limpia creek have held, and may currently hold, trout(is in West Texas). This has never been proven.

Sticking to West Texas for a moment, there are people who believe that, if trout don't exist somewhere in the mountains, they can be put there in what was once a natural trout environment, perhaps similar to the Rio Conchos of northwestern Mexico. For example, the Nature Conservancy purchased several large contiguous tracts in the Davis Mtns. and are attempting to find a way to put trout in one or several streams that are in their property.

Therefore, taking all of that into consideration, what are the possibilities for trout in West Texas?

Thanks for the information, I certainly find it fascinating, and surely others do as well.


-TXFly.

Trout don't belong in Texas. You want to play with trout all the time, move. Yes, I'm serious. Do you think that all the water that flows into and out of Texas is completely cut off from watersheds harboring trout? Of course not. Most certainly trout *have* made their way into Texas and most certainly they were decimated by a hot summer. If nature wanted trout in Texas, there would be trout here. If the trout wanted to be in Texas, they'd be here.

Don't mess with nature. Spend some time reading about the devastation of some of what used to be great trout streams (or any other fish species) in other part of the country until some other fish was imported for one reason or another. Man has a long history of screwing up the ecological balance just because "animal Y" or "plant X" could theoretically live somewhere.

I do not "want to play with trout all the time" as you have condescended. I am fascinated with nature, and believe that trout have as much a right to be in Texas waterways as any other fish, as they once were... myself and many others, truly.


LHD, is it "Messing with nature" for the Nature Conservancy (an organization I generally hate) to try and restore trout to a creek or two where they once naturally were, but now cannot survive due to destroyed flows?

Is it "messing with nature" for a private landowner to stock a few trout in an otherwise ordinary small spring pond that might support them, for their own pleasure, perhaps excluding any angling intent?

In line with the above, is it "messing with nature" for Wallace Pratt to have stocked some rainbow trout in McKittrick Canyon in what is now part of the Guadalupe Mtns. National Park, where many people enjoy them and wonder at what might have once been?

Indeed, is it messing with nature to restore a species (trout) that by most historical accounts once swam in a large portion of Texas' waterways?


Oh, and hey, Dave, I want to know when common carp where ever naturally occurring in Texas? You're not arguing against them...

Thanks! Just thought that ought to be settled.


Don't mess with nature, right?


-TXFly.

"I'm not against carp, I'm against hypocrisy."

I grew up with trout, I like catching trout, I agree they are beautiful, it doesn't change the fact that they don't belong here.


As far as trout in the Guadalupe, seriously, what????? Yeah, stocking trout in TX is messing with nature.

Define historical account. I know a lot of things have changed since the last ice age. Texas is hot. Trout are not warmwater fish. Alligator gar, as magnificent as they are, no longer belong in Montana either-- cuz it's cold and they are warmwater fish. Really, it's pretty simple.

First of all, what the hell is your problem? Why are you going off on me?

Secondly, I'm not a hypocrite. I never asked anyone to stock common carp in Texas or anywhere else. I also have never seen any scientific proof that carp have any detrimental effect on the population of-- what shall we call them-- "currently native species."

Carp have been here for about 150 years and they're here to stay. They'll be here long after both you and I die. I don't know if you're one of those carp haters or if you are just picking a fight.

You can put whatever words of mine in italics and you can even quote yourself (?!?!) and it doesn't change anything.

TPWD screwed up when it put smallies in the Hill Country who are now watering down the gene pool of our state fish. There are some, yes-- even bass fisherman... who are pissed that Florida strain LMB were ever introduced in this state.

I'm going to agree with LHD on this subject. Why would you want go to all the effort of breeding, stocking, and trying to force these fish into an enviroment that they don't naturally belong in?

Not to say that trout aren't fun to catch, because they are. They are very pretty fish, and the local stockings by TPWD provides a great way for young gets to catch some neat looking fish. I have caught these stocked trout, and have fun doing so. But at the same time, wouldn't the money that TPWD spends on those trout be better spent of native fish that could reproduce and thrive?

Just my .02

I was being hypothetical on much of that, but don't you agree that Limpia Creek and the other Davis Mtns. waters deserve trout, because they SHOULD be there, NOW? They would be! If not for, of course, the aquifers' drying up. With some other small considerations, but in essence, MAN has screwed up.


I do not hate carp, I actually love carp(and read a book earlier this year called "Carp on the Fly", interesting) but I feel similarly about trout in Texas as I do with carp: Why not, the situation is right.

Don't understand? Simply, we have a TON of reservoirs in this state... and a ton of dams. Why not utilize the ensuing coldwater fisheries?


I'll give you an example that's more relevant to my area... Lake Livingston dam. What is that tailrace good for? Stripers. Would there be stripers there if there was no dam to provide colder water year-round? Probably not.

I'm not saying trout should be put in that part of the Trinity River, and I think that smallmouth bass have destroyed the Guadalupe bass as well, but trout are by and large a non-invasive, non-harmful species that could certainly be put into CURRENT waters with no real harm to native fishes or fisheries.

The fact is that when man screws around, environments change, and that's what has happened.

I agree LHD, now we HAVE carp, and they'll be there forever. No, they're not natural, but they're there, so why not fish for them.

Well, we HAVE tailraces, and with a little work could make use of some of these otherwise stale tailraces! How great it would be if reservoirs served dual purposes, and if those wasted tailraces could be used. Many are, as striper havens, but trout do not change anything really, and indeed boost the striper populations... it is a win-win.


Ideally, I think we can all agree, there would be FEW if any dams and resevoirs to cause ecological problems... but they are there, and they aren't going away(except for that one in Missouri, but that wasn't really a dammed reservoir so much as a bathtub).


-TXFly.

there are trout in texas, Guadalupe Mountains has native trout, i dont see the problem realy, if u want to get down to the "T" about it, then wat about florida strain bass, stripers, red drum in fresh water, peacock bass, nile perch, talapia. the list could go on

I agree with vhs07. We just need to be cautious, do our homework, and where ok use the resources available. T,P,& W has great fish biologists to watch out for the bad aspects of certain species.

Heck, in my ponds in East Texas I have Florida LMB, Florida coppernose BG, hybrid striped bass, grass carp, Mozambique Tilapia, Georgia Giant hybrid bluegill, and winter time stocking of rainbow trout from Missouri.

Those who say those fish should be here only if nature put them here are really missing out, in my opinion.

LHD for Dictator! He'll set 'em straight.

"God has cared for these trees, saved them from drought, disease, avalanches, and a thousand tempests and floods. But he cannot save them from fools." --John Muir

Wish we still had a few John Muir's around.

Ya know? A sensible environmentalist. A real trailblazer.

sounds like a nice place
i wanna go

How in the world do you guys not know about the Guadalupe? It is the southern most trout fishery in the us! I fish it all winter long and have caught many rainbows and browns over 24". It is a proven fact that these fish survive year round and the record is over 8lbs set by guide Scott Grahm. I think the stockings in the small rivers in the middle of metro areas are a little retarded! On the other hand TPWD has been giving great effort to the Guadalupe and been very successful. Look at any major trout stream in Colorado and they continuously stock the rivers to keep the #'s high! Don�t hate Appreciate!!

Once those farm raised trout get acclimated they can put up a really good fight..They still don't measure up to the wild variety though..I was at the Blue River during their trout derby..The guy beside me (never fails) hooked a fatty (maybe 4 pounds) he had that fish landed in under 30 seconds..On very light gear..I've had 12 inch LMB put up a better fight..Fish was obviously just stocked for the derby..Down at the Brazos below Possum Kingdom, you give the rainbows a couple days to get their bearings and they are a lotta fun..Even the 10 inchers..

Rambler: I fish the Guadalupe in the winter, too, and enjoy the fishing. The trout fishery below Canyon Dam was created because when the Army CoE created the dam, TPWD realized that they were going to have a cold water stream on their hands that wouldn't support native fish. They needed to find a use, and trout fit that use as best as possible. (This is where someone who favors smallies might step in)

In my eyes, that is different than the idea of trying to establish non-native species in waters that are perfect for the species that already populate those waters.

Smallies in Guadalupe Bass waters wasn't a good plan, Peacock bass are too warm natured for our winters and trout are best caught north of the Red River.