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Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Alton K] #4505800 02/18/10 01:09 AM
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Rmax Offline
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SAL may or may not have helped but it did raise the level of interest for catch larger bass. There are a lot of fishermen out there dreaming about that elusive SAL and set the bar higher. Theyre releasing big fish for someone else to catch and expect the same of you and me. Its changed the mind-set, goals, ambitions and dreams of the average bass angler overall and may have created a few more fishermen along the way...young fishermen. Its saving the overall population of larger fish in general in hopes it will go on to become another SAL. Slot limits try and control this but catch and release has grown the population to unsustainable levels in some cases. How many keep under the slots to help the largest bass grow as intended by TPW? On Fork, the tournament mortality rate may help control this to some degree.

SAL hellgive me GRASSWish it was back in Joe Pool. Sure made a HUGE difference there. If youre going to going something back to the metro mess, grass would be my preference, not bass. ~ WE NEED SAL AD ~

Rmax



Moritz Chevrolet - 9101 Camp Bowie W Blvd, Fort Worth, TX - Monte Coon (817) 696-2003
Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Alton K] #4505812 02/18/10 01:11 AM
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Outdoordude Offline
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Im a fan of the program and two years of grad school away from a fish biologist title, and even I cannot give you solid evidence that the program itself is having a significant effect on bass size in Texas. There are way too many variables that effect growth for us to really know what specifically is growing these monsters in our lakes (beyond the introduction of Florida strain LMB). The quazi-controlled experiments TPWD is doing in real lakes are pointing towards SAL offspring having a slight growth rate advantage over wild Florida strain offspring. So, perhaps the size of fish isnt going to get much better, but the rate at which they get to toad size is faster.

The program has absolutely improved our knowledge of fish care and the prestige of bass fishing in Texas. When the program started, there were lots of fish that died after they were submitted to TPWD. The biologists examined the dead fish and found that many of them had broken jaws. Now, many of us know to hold those big fish with both hands, one supporting the fish from its belly or tail. They also found the water quality characteristics required for keeping big fish healthy.

And, maybe more important than any actual results, they have brought huge exposure to bass fishing in Texas. Just the fact that we have this kind of program shows how seriously we take this sport down here, and the rest of the country can see that.

I agree the department needs to publicize more solid experimental data to keep us informed on the progress, but the positives outweigh its negatives at this point in my opinion. Hopefully, one of us will bring up that 23lber out of a Texas lake soon so the people defending the program have a little more ammo to debate the skeptics with, haha.



Scott Jones
Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Outdoordude] #4505872 02/18/10 01:26 AM
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FZ1 Offline
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So now less fish die in the SAL process.......and that's Progress?????

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: FZ1] #4505930 02/18/10 01:35 AM
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The SAL program has done more for the local economies around the lakes than for the lakes themselves. The publicity brings pressure, and the pressure brings dollars.


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Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: kingfish_1970] #4506018 02/18/10 01:55 AM
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flush perfect example $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Outdoordude] #4506023 02/18/10 01:56 AM
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hit man Offline
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Lake conroe in past was a bad lake to fish if you had five fish for 12 you could win even time and now you need five for 30 and 20 will not get you a check! !!we had the biggest fish in Texas last year and so many fish over 10 !! And don't forget lake Livingston it never took 20 to win there so is it working Yes it is !! maybe not for the guy cool that is running out of time but in the long run it will! !!! so thanks SAL

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: TTU_fisherman] #4506050 02/18/10 02:02 AM
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mattm Offline
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Originally Posted By: TTU_fisherman
Originally Posted By: Ken A.

I am an advocate of the SAL program because I have seen several fish that were caught, put into the program, and caught again at a later date. I know there have been numerous fish die from transporting them but I don't think you can necessarily blame TPWD for the mortality rate. David Campbell cares for these fish exceptionally well.

Some of these fish are old when they are caught. I have had fish die in my livewell that I know were being properly cared for. Nobody's fault. They just didn't make it for whatever reason. Some of them will die, bottom line.

Lake Fork was/is the Crown Jewel in Texas. It remains to be seen if Choke or Falcon can produce an new state record. I believe they can and very well may.

However, what many folks fail to realize is that the life cycle of any body of water begins in microscopic form as plankton. I am no zoologist but if the lake loses the ability to produce a healthy base of plankton then the baitfish population will suffer. If the baitfish population goes down you know what will happen to the gamefish population as a result.

Fork is now almost 30 years old. Most man-made lakes peak when they are 10-15 years old.

The reason: As timber & vegetation rots at the bottom of the lake over the years it produces sulfate reducing bacteria which lowers the pH of the water over time. This is why many privately funded premium fisheries "lime the lake" every few years. Lime buffers the pH back up to a point where plankton proliferates in abundance. This supports a healthy baitfish population and so on...

I think the SAL Program has done good things for the State of Texas in general. You cannot look at the decline of Top 50 fish from Fork and blame the SAL program. The lake is 30 years old! It is past it's peak for producing 15+ pound fish. I think many of us may be in denial but the numbers speak for themselves.

Personally I think we should feel blessed that it produced the giants for as long as it did. And who knows... It may pop another state record tomorrow!

Ken






thumb

Also, there are just too many things we do not know to blame it on the SAL program.

How many fish that size ended up on walls instead of alive back in the lake before this program started?

How many of those fish died before the next time they spawned due to age, or complications from being caught?

As it has been said before. In most cases...

1. The fish leaves for less than a year. This means its genetics from every other time it spawned are in the lake as well as the same fish less than a year later to grow bigger.
2. There is no evidence that more fish die from SAL than those released back into the water. The difference is we get to record how many we see die, and not how many die that we cant see.
3. Being a sponsored program, there is no evidence that the program could have done something different or better to change the number of 16+ lb fish, when it probably wouldnt exist without a sponsor.
4. There is little to no evidence that any of those fish taken out of their lakes would have ever grown to 18 lbs or for most of them even 16. If they had that potential there is no evidence that they did not reach that weight and were simply not captured again.

The numbers people keep giving such as the Top 50 are results of TONS of factors. There are no numbers that say that was due to any fish being taken from those lakes.

A very small percentage of 13# fish will ever make it to 16#. Most of the SALs were never going to make it to that list no matter what happened. Very few of these fish have been recaptured once they are released. Also, I would guess by years of looking into this type of thing, that a small percentage of the fish that reach that size in most lakes are even captured between 13# and death. According to the theory that SAL has been harmful to the fisheries, then those fish that have not been turned in should have had the conditions to make the list. Its not happening. We are not catching fish that size whether we turn fish in or not.




So you are saying that if we caught 100 13 lbers unhooked 50 of them and dropped them in the lake and stuffed the others in the livewell, hauled butt to a marina, waited for a truck to come from Athens, haul the fish to Athens, leave it for a few months and then haul it back that it would be about the same number of dead fish.

Last edited by mattm; 02/18/10 02:02 AM.
Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: kingfish_1970] #4506062 02/18/10 02:05 AM
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I am not an authority on how effective the program may or not be, but I can say that I have lived in many parts of the country and nothing compares to what we have here in TX. So, I guess without the program we all would have little to discuss. Kudos to the state for showing an interest in providing great recreational opportunities for everyone.


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Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: mattm] #4506085 02/18/10 02:12 AM
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Folks on here are totally missing the obvious. The SAL program was never intended to produce a large quantity of big fish. That was what the Florida strain introduction was all about. And that was successful throughout Texas, without question.

The SAL program is to produce a record quality bass, not large numbers so that fishermen can enjoy catching one every time out. The spread of genetics does not guarantee all the offspring to grow just as large, any more than you can expect your children to all be just like you. If a world record is caught out of Fork, due to the program, they can genetically fingerprint it and tell if its one of theirs. That's the benefit of the program. Then they will say, and all of you have to say, it was a success. But its not about numbers, its about one. And that one has a very small, infinitely small chance of being the record one. That's why its not about the numbers. The program just hopes to increase the probability of one, or a few, or growing to the record size.

I invite any and all fisheries biologists to respond. All the questions posted so far have been answered hundreds of times by the TPW, go to the constituency meeting in Atherns and listen for yourself, Its free.

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Ratlrap] #4506109 02/18/10 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ratlrap
Folks on here are totally missing the obvious. The SAL program was never intended to produce a large quantity of big fish. That was what the Florida strain introduction was all about. And that was successful throughout Texas, without question.

The SAL program is to produce a record quality bass, not large numbers so that fishermen can enjoy catching one every time out. The spread of genetics does not guarantee all the offspring to grow just as large, any more than you can expect your children to all be just like you. If a world record is caught out of Fork, due to the program, they can genetically fingerprint it and tell if its one of theirs. That's the benefit of the program. Then they will say, and all of you have to say, it was a success. But its not about numbers, its about one. And that one has a very small, infinitely small chance of being the record one. That's why its not about the numbers. The program just hopes to increase the probability of one, or a few, or growing to the record size.

I invite any and all fisheries biologists to respond. All the questions posted so far have been answered hundreds of times by the TPW, go to the constituency meeting in Atherns and listen for yourself, Its free.


Yeah but 20 something years later they can't even trace a 16lber to their program or a 15. Facts are facts it has done nothing to increase the size of the states Trophies of Trophies.

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: mattm] #4506190 02/18/10 02:30 AM
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What are your "facts" again? Not tracing a 16 lber to the program is a fact? Huh? A fact of what?

Read my post again, those handful of top 50 doesn't even calculate to a meaningful percentage of the fry produced. And that is to be expected and that it is no validation to what you support is a "fact". But you can believe the earth is flat if you want because you see the horizon as a flat line. yeah right



Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: Ratlrap] #4506277 02/18/10 02:52 AM
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I don't know whether the program has helped or not. I am not real complicated in my thinking. Some of the fish are going to die in transit, but if your a tournament fisherman you know some fish are going to die as a result of being held in your live well and as a result of the stress of being weighed in. You aren't going to release a 13+ before the weigh in because of the knowledge. Risk vs. Reward.

Ask yourself this question. Would you rather the TPWD release fry in your homelake that have been produced by a 5 #er or a 13+? Simple genetics, I am going to opt for the 13+.

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: mattm] #4506328 02/18/10 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: mattm
Originally Posted By: Ratlrap
Folks on here are totally missing the obvious. The SAL program was never intended to produce a large quantity of big fish. That was what the Florida strain introduction was all about. And that was successful throughout Texas, without question.

The SAL program is to produce a record quality bass, not large numbers so that fishermen can enjoy catching one every time out. The spread of genetics does not guarantee all the offspring to grow just as large, any more than you can expect your children to all be just like you. If a world record is caught out of Fork, due to the program, they can genetically fingerprint it and tell if its one of theirs. That's the benefit of the program. Then they will say, and all of you have to say, it was a success. But its not about numbers, its about one. And that one has a very small, infinitely small chance of being the record one. That's why its not about the numbers. The program just hopes to increase the probability of one, or a few, or growing to the record size.

I invite any and all fisheries biologists to respond. All the questions posted so far have been answered hundreds of times by the TPW, go to the constituency meeting in Atherns and listen for yourself, Its free.


Yeah but 20 something years later they can't even trace a 16lber to their program or a 15. Facts are facts it has done nothing to increase the size of the states Trophies of Trophies.



Let me put it in perspective for all to better understand. Take the Top 50 state bass. You would need thousands of bass bigger than the smallest of the top 50 caught before you would see any bass traceable to the program. Do the math. That doesn't mean the program hasn't worked. It just means we haven't caught enough to measure it. There are already hundreds more large florida strain than what has been introduced as offsping of sharelunkers. Therefore, a lack of direct confirmation in the current top 50 is meaningless. I would be willing to bet that the next state record has ties to the programs. just my .02 on the last sentence.

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: kingfish_1970] #4506364 02/18/10 03:11 AM
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about the only thing it helps is someone get a free mount and a lifetime fishing license.

Re: What good has SAL done? [Re: BUCK KNASTY] #4506475 02/18/10 03:36 AM
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Here's how I sold my self on the SAL Program and this should be the end-all, be-all answer -

We can't prove that it is helping, but it DAMN SURE AIN'T HURTING LAKES and IT HAS CORPORATE SPONSORSHIP, SAVING US ALOT OF MONEY!

I'drather catch sons and daughters of 13+ lbers than 5 lbers!

-Alton

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