There seems to be continued confusion about line weights from time to time, so FWIW I�ll add my 2 cents .

A quote from Bill Nash of West Coast fame:
�Except for a double taper line the AFTMA line number, for the rated loading, and the rod number will not be the same.
Line manufacturers numbering is based upon the weight of the first 30 ft of a line. Therefore, it will not be fully loaded by lines of different designs such as Weight Forward, Triangle Taper or Shooting Tapers, even though the line has the same number as the rod. Only the weight of the first thirty feet will be the same, the total line weight (of 45 or more feet) will be less, because most of the belly weight of a Double Taper will be missing.

To compensate for this the rod should be *�over lined� in order to match the casting weight of a Double Taper (some will argue that in either case casting 30� of line will load the rod the same but they forget that the line in the guides is also part of the load).�
Bill Nash

I believe in order to avoid confusing, this is the primary reason that Sage Largemouth and TFO Mini-Mag rods have grain designation on their fly rods rather than line weight number.
CONVERSION: 437.5 grains = 1 ounce


IMO his book �Flycasting Systems� belongs in every fly fisherman�s library.
http://www.danblanton.com/billnash/content.htm
http://www.danblanton.com/billnash/

*I prefer to use the accepted terminology �up lining� rather than �over-line�.

Nice George, I learn something new every day, and with flyline not being cheap, that was great to know before my next purchase.

Very helpful. I guess I sort of stumbled into this "knowledge" some time ago when I put a WF7F line on a 6-wt rod and found that it cast a heck of a lot better.

As they say in French, "once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut."

Thanks for the enlightenment, George.

Great discussion point!

Is the above quote based upon the presumption that modern rods are rated for a DT line? If so, it explains alot.

Being that DT lines are becoming increasingly rare, I would think most rods are rated on a WF line by the manufacturer.

You also see a lot of new lines on the market advertised as being "1/2 a wt heavier to load modern fast action rods"

I dont think I would suggest that all rods should be overlined, but I think people appreciate the feel of an over lined rod because it helps their casting timeing and this is especially important to beginning fly casters. I feel as one becomes more experienced, the faster action of a rod will may desired (for distance and wind) and over lining will be a handi-cap.

I'm still not sure I see the difference in labeling a line by grains vs AFTMA line weights. It is 6 one way or half a dozen the other.
If a 7wt = "x" grains in the first 30' then conversely any line that weighs "x" grains in the first 30' is a 7wt....regardless if that line is DT, WF, Bass bug, Triangle, etc.

The sage small mouth (bass bug taper) line is 290 grains in the first 30', which is a 10 wt. I think the reason they dont call it a 10wt is because most people think a 10wt is too heavy for small mouth bass.

FlySouth, for many years I up-lined every fly rod I owned in order to properly load the rod, believing it was poor casting skills, until I learned AFTMA line weights were based on the first 30 ft of a Double Taper fly line.
I believe this is the reason that Sage and TFO are now labeling their new �short� rods in grains rather than line weight.
Rio is also going this direction on some of fly their specialty lines
There has been much discussion about fly rod designation and flyline weights on danblanton.com and is available in the archives.
By no means do I consider myself an expert on flyrods or flylines but I do trust my information sources.

Below is a quote from Rick Pope, founder and president of Temple Fork Outfitters, that may address some of your concerns:

"I want a fast action rod that's not too stiff..." WOW! There's a fella who knows exactly what he wants in a fly rod. For most, however, it's just not that easy when you are trying to spend your hard earned money wisely.
How well a rod will cast and fight fish in a particular environment is key, so a bit about rod actions and casting characteristics is worthwhile. The action of a rod is determined by where it bends with a given amount of weight. Fast action rods bend nearer the tip area and medium action rods bend down nearer the middle of the rod. Slower action rods bend all the way down into the butt section and look parabolic when bent with that same given amount of weight. All you really need to know is that faster action rods are stiff in the butt and flexible in the tip, because you will use a great range of weight when you cast varying distances or when using larger/heavier flies.
Let's take a 6 wt. fly rod as an example. Per AFFTA, our industry organization's standard for the first 30' of a 6 weight flyline is 160 grains, or about 3/8 ounce. But if you are casting with half that much or 15' of flyline (80 grains) - the AFFTA 30' weight standard say 80 grains is a 2 weight! Or, let's say you are a pretty good distance caster and you need your 6 weight to carry 70' of line to shoot a presentation cast to 100'. We know that the first 30' of our 6 weight line weighs 160 grains, but running line - at approximately 3 grains per foot - weighs another 120 grains (40' x 3 grain/foot) for a total weight of 280 grains of flyline - AFFTA 30' standards say 280 grains is a 10 weight! As Lefty says "all flyrods are a compromise".

I think I am confused...so for my weight forward floating lines...I need to go up a notch when I buy fly line? I have a five weight rod, and bought five weight line. I guess I should of bought six weight line. (this was a while back)

Yes Maam, if most of your casts are 30-50 ft, you'll be amazed at the diference by uplining to a six, especially in feeling the rod load.

If you are casting most of your flyline, you'll do fine with the 5 wt line because you are casting more line weight.

Fly line wts are made for the average rod and the average caster. Lines like GPX from SA are 1/2 size heavier than standard to fit better with today's fast action rods. So rod action type has a lot to do with it. So does length of line carried in the air. If you are casting a fast action 5 wt and casting 25' all day long you could throw a 7 wt line and it would probably load better for you than throwing 5 wt DT line. If you are tossing 80 foot of line all day with a 7 wt you could throw a 6 wt line. This is less common because most people don't have the skill set to toss 80 feet of line all day. I still buy the line that is matched to my rods, but with 10 outfits I can switch reels around easily. For instance on spring creeks I have been throwing my 3 wt rod with 4 wt line and the casts are relatively short. I don't sweat the details too much these days.

Clay is right on... he explained it better than I.

-- Right on...

I think sometimes we over read into things.
For the most part unless you are a tournament caster then a majority of the time matching the line wt to the rod wt rating will get you the best performance. If you find overlining your fast action rod helps you -- then try a med or med fast action rod -- you may find it fits your casting style better.

What Hill is spot on about is that overlinning or whatever term you wish to use causes more bend in the rod because the load is more than the line that is normally matched to the rod wt. This increased weight or load on the fast action rod will make it bend more and therefore act like a slower action rod. Some prefer a fast action and for those people timing is more critical. A slower action rod is more forgiving and timing doesn't have to be as spot on. If your timing is good and you can cast a fast action rod, the power is definately there to blast through conditions like wind.

One of the nice things about pro shops is that you can go, choose a rod and have them line it up with the standard line for the rod, then have them put on a size larger line and then even cast two sizes larger. That exercise would be enlightening for many. When you are done, actually buy the line there instead of just using the owners stuff for free. There is a reason that they cost a little more, but many times the difference in price is worth it.

Sooner or later, you have to decide to just go fishing....

My problem with the haul, double haul was I couldn't feel the rod loading the way I should of. I haven't practiced it since Fly Fish Athens...I never had it down even then. I am just an average caster I think.

Something that needs be considered I bealieve is the size of yer offerings, I generally like to throw large bugs & believe that has some bearing on line size. In most cases I fish from a boat & I like to just run down a bank repeating the same type cast over & over, its good to be able to make nice accurate (or semi-accurate in my case) and to be able to pick up the line & shoot it all in one cast is advantagous to me.
I did take the 7'11" Sage to fish off the bank the other day & regretted it, I was on a sloping bank off a bridge & the fish were hitting good, but my backcast (short as it was) kept hitting the guard rail behind me fouling up every cast, but other than that which is a rare situation, I find a short rod to be accurate (again, only as accurate as I can be) and very fun to fish with & that heavy line makes all that possible, go big or stay home.

Wow, lots of assorted topics in this thread.

Sometimes I'll overline and other times I won't.

I base the decision to overline or not primarily on how I plan to fish that day and what size fly I plan to be casting. For example, if I plan to use the trolling motor to work a weed line along the bank for LMB then I will overline, because the casting distances will be short and the flies will be big. The heavier line will help load the rod quicker. But, I seldom overline when trout fishing.

Another consideration is how a specific rod and line combination "feels" with your personal casting style. I love the way a 6wt TFO Axiom casts a 7 wt SA Expert Distance line for general purpose casting; long and short distances, and roll casting. However, if the goal is distance then matching the 7 wt line with a 7 wt rod will toss line farther into the next county than the 6 wt.

In my opinion, you should use whatever rod and line combination are most comfortable for the conditions you will be fishing. Don't be afraid to try different size lines on different rods, you might find something that you like. However, if you find that you having to overline a couple sizes to even be able to cast a rod at all, then you might be happier with a softer action rod. Faster isn't always better for everyone.

One comment on testing rods and lines, be sure to make test casts to various distances and to use different types of casts when testing a new rod or line. I have seen people test a rod by just focusing on maximum distance. Max distance is a good test if that is how you will use the rod, but it may not be the best test if your plans are to primarily fish using 20 to 25 ft rollcasts all day long. I like to make at least 3 casts when testing a rod, a couple of short, 25 to 30 ft casts to a specific target; a 30 to 35 ft roll cast; and then try a long distance cast with several false casts. Different rods will perform some types of casts better than others. The key is to pick a rod and line combination that you are comfortable using.

Kelly, learning to double haul takes practice. I've only seen one person pick up the double haul immediately during their first lesson. Most of us have to practice it for a while to finally get the timing right. However, it is definately worth the effort to learn how to double haul, it significantly reduces the effort required to make a cast.

Have fun,
Rex