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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Tony from Oak Point] #2911999 12/13/08 01:07 AM
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DHFisher Offline
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What do you guys think about this argument... If the gator gars are not kept in check they will overpopulate and eat everything? That seems to be a common thought on other sites.



SAC AMF
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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: DHFisher] #2912002 12/13/08 01:10 AM
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I saw literally hundreds* of Whooping Cranes in Port Aransas.

They are going to overpopulate too.


*259




Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: TEXAS TWO GUNS] #2912008 12/13/08 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: TEXAS TWO GUNS

Starless, you say that Texas says this and Texas says that, but that is not true, the only data that I have seen presented to TPWD was from an out of state lady, Georgia or somewhere.

Also, from what I say it was commercial fishing AND recreational fishing being limited. There is not a population problem where gator gar are found.


Actually, Sir, the information I speak of comes directly from TPWD! From the state of Texas itself. It comes from a link that is posted on the TPWD page, linked too at the start of this thread.

TPWD's information on the current status of Alligator gar is as follows: Historically, alligator gar were found from Mexico throughout North Americas Mississippi River drainage, as shown in green. However, changing habitat and overfishing have led to declining populations. Recently, the American Fisheries Society listed the species as vulnerable. Gar can no longer be found in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio, and Tennessee and Florida no longer allow harvest. In Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama and Oklahoma, stocks have been significantly reduced, so these states have regulations intended to reduce harvest. If populations continue to decrease, the alligator gar may become listed as threatened or endangered species. To keep Texas gar at current levels, we must limit harvest.

Again, this information comes directly from TPWD. They say that 3 states have already lost their entire alligator gar population, and many other states are seeing severely reduced populations.

All they wish to do here in Texas, one of the last remaining states with a viable, healthy population of Native Alligator Gar, is protect that very population from over harvesting before it is as reduced, or even extinct as it has become in other states.

Nothing wrong with that, is there?


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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: DHFisher] #2912009 12/13/08 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: DHFisher
What do you guys think about this argument... If the gator gars are not kept in check they will overpopulate and eat everything? That seems to be a common thought on other sites.


Let's see...it clearly didn't happen in the last thousand years...so it won't happen now! If that were a problem, the entire missisippi river basin in Texas would have been nothing but Alligator Gar long before humans ever habitated the area. Nature has a way of preventing any native species from taking over.


The Harder the Fight, the Better the Fish.

www.TXfishes.com - Texas Multi-Species Angling ( Multi-Species Tournament: Sign up now! )

www.atdot.com Now featuring fantastic photography.

www.dfwhops.com ( All your DFW Beer news and info in one spot! )
Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Starless] #2912030 12/13/08 01:34 AM
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DHFisher Offline
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Originally Posted By: Starless Dragon
Originally Posted By: DHFisher
What do you guys think about this argument... If the gator gars are not kept in check they will overpopulate and eat everything? That seems to be a common thought on other sites.


Let's see...it clearly didn't happen in the last thousand years...so it won't happen now! If that were a problem, the entire missisippi river basin in Texas would have been nothing but Alligator Gar long before humans ever habitated the area. Nature has a way of preventing any native species from taking over.


LOL just like the carp in LBL will be out of control in the next 5 years! LOL



SAC AMF
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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Starless] #2912055 12/13/08 01:53 AM
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Since im the person who started this, I'm going to say the following: I'm from Cotulla, TX. I live on the Nueces River in the middle of la Salle County. As many know the Nueces had some of the biggest gator gar you will ever see. Our ranch has a 35 acre natural lake on it that is fed by the Nueces River. When my father grew up it had Alligator gar up to 200 pounds being caught in it. The water was clear and aquatic plants grew 10 yards from the bank. During this time commerical fishing came around fishing for the Alligator gar. This now being in the sixties. Since then there has been a decline in the size of fish caught. Being in my twenties now the "biggest fish" I have caught from this river or seen for that matters is a 30 pound gator gar. Another thing that i have seen over the years the carp and buffalo populations have jumped in numbers by the thousands. It sounds good if your a carp fisherman but the biggest carp you will find will be in the teens. There are not that many carp above 20 pounds that i catch in this lake anymore. The Alligator Gar controled these fish because they are the only ones that could eat the medium to small size carp to keep a heathly population. Now my waters are murky full of undersized carp and buffalo. Yes there is still Alligator gar but the average size is only 2-3 pounds in the lake.

What is the problem? Overharvest of the adult gator gar. Commerical fisherman are probably more to blame than the bowfisherman but do the bowfisherman really help? No they do not. I believe that commerical fisherman started the decline as has habitat loss but there is only 13 registered commerical fisherman in Texas one of the articles said. When you take into account the number of bowfisherman that hunt for these fish and take a gator gar over 30 pounds....thats a major amount of fish. Tpwd is doing the right thing for these fish. They are native to texas and thee is a reason for them to be here. There is also a reason for them to be as big as they are. So I believe in harvesting as few as possible of the adult fish that we can.



Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: zuhmann] #2912068 12/13/08 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: zuhmann
Since im the person who started this, I'm going to say the following: I'm from Cotulla, TX. I live on the Nueces River in the middle of la Salle County. As many know the Nueces had some of the biggest gator gar you will ever see. Our ranch has a 35 acre natural lake on it that is fed by the Nueces River. When my father grew up it had Alligator gar up to 200 pounds being caught in it. The water was clear and aquatic plants grew 10 yards from the bank. During this time commerical fishing came around fishing for the Alligator gar. This now being in the sixties. Since then there has been a decline in the size of fish caught. Being in my twenties now the "biggest fish" I have caught from this river or seen for that matters is a 30 pound gator gar. Another thing that i have seen over the years the carp and buffalo populations have jumped in numbers by the thousands. It sounds good if your a carp fisherman but the biggest carp you will find will be in the teens. There are not that many carp above 20 pounds that i catch in this lake anymore. The Alligator Gar controled these fish because they are the only ones that could eat the medium to small size carp to keep a heathly population. Now my waters are murky full of undersized carp and buffalo. Yes there is still Alligator gar but the average size is only 2-3 pounds in the lake.

What is the problem? Overharvest of the adult gator gar. Commerical fisherman are probably more to blame than the bowfisherman but do the bowfisherman really help? No they do not. I believe that commerical fisherman started the decline as has habitat loss but there is only 13 registered commerical fisherman in Texas one of the articles said. When you take into account the number of bowfisherman that hunt for these fish and take a gator gar over 30 pounds....thats a major amount of fish. Tpwd is doing the right thing for these fish. They are native to texas and thee is a reason for them to be here. There is also a reason for them to be as big as they are. So I believe in harvesting as few as possible of the adult fish that we can.



Great support of the regulations!


The Harder the Fight, the Better the Fish.

www.TXfishes.com - Texas Multi-Species Angling ( Multi-Species Tournament: Sign up now! )

www.atdot.com Now featuring fantastic photography.

www.dfwhops.com ( All your DFW Beer news and info in one spot! )
Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Starless] #2912109 12/13/08 02:39 AM
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Tony from Oak Point Offline
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Given the normal drought cycles in Texas, I think alligator gar must have done really well before the days of dams. Their ability to breath air would allow them to fatten up on other fishing dying due to lack of oxygen.

From what I have read where they have been newly introduced, largemouth bass, blue catfish or even flatheads seem to be a better candidates of "eating everything" if people stopped harvesting them. Not that any one fish will take over, but it might displace a native species. Suppose the teeth, the large size, the fact they are not easy to clean and eat all make gar easy targets.

Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Tony from Oak Point] #2912119 12/13/08 02:50 AM
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What might displace native species?



SAC AMF
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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Starless] #2912392 12/13/08 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Starless Dragon

Let's see...it clearly didn't happen in the last thousand years


My thoughts exactly. If they would have hurt the environment over the thousand's of years they've been here.

Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Golden Ghost] #2915958 12/14/08 10:40 PM
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"What might displace native species?"

Seems like any fish or creature stocked where it is not native will do damage. Blue catfish can get big enough to eat just about anything an alligator gar can and they can reproduce much more quickly. Just googled and reading where crawfish can "wipe out" a fish population.

http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2008/Dec-12-Fri-2008/sports/25676906.html



Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: Tony from Oak Point] #2916054 12/14/08 10:58 PM
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Well, I guess we'll see what TPWD decides to do. Hopefully they'll help the largest of the species stick around so they can reproduce.



SAC AMF
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Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: DHFisher] #2917960 12/15/08 02:50 PM
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What are the earliest population reports of "game" fish, before the alligator gar started to decline? I am interested in the stated theory of "If the gator gars are not kept in check they will overpopulate and eat everything?"

We know that there weren't many whitetail deer years ago because of habitat, but do we know that there were lots and lots of bass and catfish and crappie where Alligator Gar roamed or was the population thin?

Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: TEXAS TWO GUNS] #2918432 12/15/08 05:00 PM
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My greatest concern on this topic is that of making new laws. Seems like some folks want to create new regulations to justify their existence on a commision.

I agree that regulations may be necessary in some parts of the state but without adequate research and studies regulations can be more harmful than helpful.

Before we start fighting with each other about who's opinion is the best we should all agree that there has been ample research and studies done on anything that is going to constitute the creation of new laws and regulations.

This years TPWD meeting should be about raising funds for the study of Alligator gar populations in several different areas throughout the state. Might even get several different competant groups to do their own studies. Since weather and seasons play a vital role in the spawning of these gar, this study should occur over a period of several years. The results of these studies should be compared and regulations should then be considered for areas with declining populations.

I'm not saying that the folks who have proposed this regulation are incompetant but there are several unkowns that should be addressed before laws go into effect.

FACTS FIRST THEN REGULATIONS WHERE NEEDED



Re: Finally TPWD! [Re: TFuller] #2918594 12/15/08 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: TFuller
My greatest concern on this topic is that of making new laws. Seems like some folks want to create new regulations to justify their existence on a commision.





You mean like the guy on the commision who brought up the bowfishing for catfish law, even though TWPD and other biologist told them it was a bad idea. Guys like that?


Bowfishing sucks
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