Fair or unfair the facts are we are already in this position no matter who put us there. It is ALL of our responsibility to fix the problem, NOT just those other guys around the coast.

I'm not convinced totally that the commercial guys are the ONLY ones responsible. I've been out on the party boats in the past, and I don't see how you cannot say that they didn't play a role in the destruction of the resources too.

My first offshore trip in 95 was on a partyboat, three of us went out and we caught probably 50 red snappers each, and maybe 40 of them were keepers, the deck hands took every keeper to the back of the boat and when we got off the boat every person on the boat had limits of red snapper.. do that day after day 100+ people each time and I cannot see how that couldn't damage a resource.

Those people on the boat were all rec. fishermen...

Yes rec fishermen do some damage, but the shrimpers/commercial do a lot more, but thats just my opinion. I do not know if snapper travel or stay put.

If they stay put in one area then yes rec fishermen can fish out a reef in no time.


Now that I think about this topic I'm not so sure LOL. Shrimpers dragging bottom can really screw things up, but who knows how that affects snapper.

Are there any reports on this issue we could all read?

If you are in Federal waters, then current Federal rules, regulations and limits apply to your boat. So if it's July & you're allowed 2 fish/person, you'd best not have more than that while you're out there. However, on the way back in, you can stop in state waters & catch your state limit of red snapper.

Likewise, if you're fishing in September this year, you cannot have red snapper in your possession while in Federal waters, so my advice would be do your Federal water fishing first, then stop on the way back in state waters if you want some red snapper.

Oh yeah, also remember that you have to have a TX saltwater license to bring fish ashore, even if they were caught past 9 miles. If you get checked at the docks, there's really no way for the GW to know where each fish was caught - this comes down to being ethical on the part of the fisherman.

Speaking of ethical, how about the ethics of the commercial boats that are being caught poaching HUGE amounts of red snapper (including thousands of pounds in undersize fish). There's another thread on here with details on some of those boats being caught ... there's our Federal regulations hard at work.

The only way that the ridculous recreational limits can do any good is to put the same constraints on both commercial AND shrimper boats. If necessary, a GW should be on a shrimp boat counting the number of baby red snapper being killed - when the shrimp boat hits a certain number, it's done fishing for the entire year. If we only have 2 months to fish, then so should the other sectors.

Oh, Michial, there are limits on vermillion snapper as well. Federal waters is 11" size limit, with possession of 10 fish. Texas limits is 10" size, with no possession limit (not sure that you can find very many vermillion in state waters anyways).

Of course charter catch contributes to the harvest.My point was that I feel your commemt about our egos is why were still dealing with this problem. I asure you the charter captains are stuggleing for there catchs rt now.But commercial fishermen will out spend the recs to insure there wt totals stay up.And the majority of that issue is out past the nine mile mark.Ask any charter cap how long a hot spot holds before commercial fishermen get on it, they will tell you compared to yrs past they hone in on it real quick today.

I have read many an article of tickets that have been given to commercial fisherman that have harvested way too many snapper and after they take the snapper and give them multiple tickets and they are back out the next day doing the same thing. I read that one captain had more than 50 tickets and is still fishing. I think if they stop commercial fishing for a year or two the size would be back to normal and would solve the problems or just take the boat and equipment from the thieves. And I really want to use a worse word....

Steve

We are ALL responsible at our own levels, and it is ALL of our responsibilities to repair the damage. By Texans refusing to fall in line with the federal limits we are doing nothing more than thumbing our nose at the feds and at the problems.

Blaiming the commercial guys are is just passing the buck. I'm tired of hearing people cry "it's no my fault it's someone elses."

Maybe we should put a ban on catching and keeping red snappers completely for a few years and let the problem get fixed that way... But then if that was the solution the feds chose it would still be pointless because we would not comply and still slow the process.

My point is the damage is done, no matter who is responsible for the damage it is still ALL of our responsibilities to fix the problem, and every time someone passes the buck and thumbs their noses at those trying to solve the problem the just force things to take longer to fix..

So When Texans let their egos tell them they can do anything they feel like doing just because their texans all they do is make things take longer to fix.

Guys, if you go to the catfish section you and pull up some of these guys you will see that they have the same arguement. FOr some reason they seem to feel the "dooms day" plague for all species. Their comments seem to be in line and they are willing to argue it to the death.

Number one Michial, Please stop referring to our egos as the reason we are not falling in line with fed regulations. Florida is not bending to pressure from the feds either. And maybe, just maybe, our biologists have a little better science than the NMFS does to back up they're reasoning. Like maybe we dont agree with them about bycatch issues, Number two, would you really want to agree and just go along with an agency that decided your limit on Amberjack is 1 and 1/2 fish per person? How do you catch a half of a fish? It just doesnt make much sense.
Number Three ,understand this, Texas is the only State to enter the Union by TREATY rather than by secession, We were a nation unto ourselves and we were under the Flags of four others before we entered the Union, so I suppose we do have bigger egos than other states, as we should. There is a reason Our flag is the only flag allowed to be raised to the same height as the Stars and Stripes.....deal with it and quit yer bitchin....

You post PROVES the ego aspect of my arguement..

PROVE that tp&w has "better science" and I'll believe you...

OH by the way isn't it "SIX" flags that have flown over Texas, NOT 4, and what does ANY of that have to do with anything???? Proves nothing more than noone really wanted Texas, and the only way Texas could get protection from Mexico was through entering into a treaty with the US... If Texas was so great it would never have needed that protection that being a member of the US offered...

If you want to argue for the Egos of Texans perhaps you shouldn't demonstrate the ignorance that seems to go hand in hand with those same egos.

Oh and having the RIGHT to fly the flag at the same level is a RESPECT offered to the State of Texas. It's not a RIGHT at all, its a demonstration of RESPECT. Try offering the RESPECT that the other 49 states Deserve as well.

Man Michial, sounds to me like your looking for friends. And you just thought you'd sturr up a hornets nest with catfishermen. Not to be offensive but I really do think you enjoy it. If so then sit back and have fun!!

Man, I started this topic just to find out if the rules had changed for us here locally, thats all. Didnt mean to start any arguments. But, Iv'e got a pair of boxing gloves if anyone would like to borrow them!! As for my stand on the subject, I like being able to keep a few snapper year round in state waters. Certain times of the year thats about all there is within 9 miles out, so they make it worth the trip. I'm glad to be from and live here in TEXAS.

Reel, just remember it's 9 NAUTICAL miles, not statute miles - and under no circumstances do you ever want to venture into Federal waters with State limits of red snapper in your vessel (just in case law enforcement decides to check out there).

Michial, example of flawed science. NMFS uses the growth and MSY (maximum sustainable yield) calcuation methods for salmon to estimate figures for red snapper! Two completely different animals with different reproduction, habitat, growth, etc, and NMFS treats them essentially as the same fish. How can you begin to think that NMFS has any good science behind it?

I'll trust Texas over NMFS on this, thanks - ego or no ego.

For anyone interested, 'Maximum Sustainable Yield' means 'how many fish can we catch without completely killing them off?'. It's based on the assumption that fish only have to live long enough to spawn once or twice & places more economic value on 100 two pound red snapper than on 20 ten pounders or 10 twenty pounders.

It would seem that Texas's methods for management would create a much more fragile environment then. If you only manage for one or two spawning and assume that they will be taken after that it would seem that one bad year or one bad environmental change that had a large kill off could destroy the populations quickly.

If you manage for larger fish you are naturally also managing for larger numbers of breeders to exist at any given time, making the species more resilient after a large number of deaths...

How does that make Texas's method better? Seems to me that the way Texas does it does nothing more than satisfy the sport fishermen of today without regard to consequences of unforeseen futures...

Wow Michael, I sure would hate to be on a 48 hour offshore trip with you! I'm sticking with my thoughts and beliefs that commercials are the red snapper culprit...I know that for a fact. Earlier in one of your posts, you said you went offshore fishing on a party boat and watched deckhands take fish to the back to fill up everyone's limit. That's their job. Once limits are posted...they quit. Evidently you haven't been on too many offshore trips. I've probably been on 50 party boat trips. I've yet to see one charter I've been on break the law in any form or fashion. Commercials do it every single time they are out there. I've seen it countless number of times.

P.S. Be sure and tell me when you going and on what boat...then I'll make plans to head in a different direction.

Umm,Cant you add? Four other nations plus our own flag plus the Stars and Stripes, adds up to Six I think unless you want to argue that as well.
I never said that TPWD has better science, just that they might...and What about Florida? Got an opinion about that state and it's citizens as well?
No comment of the NMFS and their limits in regards to Amberjack? NO? are you sure?, just more personal assumptions which only serve you.

We are here on this forum to help each other out in regards to fishing and yes to hear each others opinions on certain rules and regs. However, I do take it personal when someone makes it personal instead of politely stating their opinion.

So in the future, please refrain from making such personal statements which serve no purpose other than to be rude. As you said it is a demonstration of RESPECT, The U.S. offered RESPECT to our great State when we signed that Treaty. Try offering RESPECT to the other members of this forum.