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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Allison1]
#15323209
02/05/25 12:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,475
Slicefixer
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,475 |
this is very early but a visual representation of the planes in the area being analyzed. It includes some ATC to the pilots. The jet that the helicopter collided with was a single jet that had been diverted from runway 01, which all the other flights were landing at and took a different course to land at runway 33. I think its possible that the helicopter saw all the planes lined up and landing in order on runway 01 and just did not see the one jet that had been diverted to runway 33. There is no question as to who caused this midair collision. The helo was at 325' AGL.... 125' ABOVE the max altitude for that helo corridor (Route 1 to Route 4/200' or BELOW) . The question is WHY??
Gj
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: butch sanders]
#15323968
02/06/25 01:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 865
78Staff
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 865 |
well its pretty obvious the rookies in the helicopter killed a lot of people I don't know that I would call them rookies, with an almost combined 1500 flight hours... 1000 hours for the FI and almost 500 for the Pilot.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Slicefixer]
#15323974
02/06/25 01:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 865
78Staff
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 865 |
this is very early but a visual representation of the planes in the area being analyzed. It includes some ATC to the pilots. The jet that the helicopter collided with was a single jet that had been diverted from runway 01, which all the other flights were landing at and took a different course to land at runway 33. I think its possible that the helicopter saw all the planes lined up and landing in order on runway 01 and just did not see the one jet that had been diverted to runway 33. There is no question as to who caused this midair collision. The helo was at 325' AGL.... 125' ABOVE the max altitude for that helo corridor (Route 1 to Route 4/200' or BELOW) . The question is WHY?? Could be a combination of several things... a minor deviation in the aircraft's altimeter IOM setting (which are manually set before each flight/airport) could easily have them 100ft or more in actual altitude. Something they likely would have easily recognized in daylight at that level, but at night over water probably not so much. Also, the way a rotary wing aircraft of that size/power is tuned and piloted, a pilot could sneeze and literally rise (or drop) 50ft due to the minor nerve/muscle tremor. Not trying to make excuses for anyone, I mean it could be a training/knowledge issue just as well. But being 125ft off in altitude is not really hard to do in a rotor wing aircraft.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Slicefixer]
#15323985
02/06/25 01:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098
Allison1
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098 |
this is very early but a visual representation of the planes in the area being analyzed. It includes some ATC to the pilots. The jet that the helicopter collided with was a single jet that had been diverted from runway 01, which all the other flights were landing at and took a different course to land at runway 33. I think its possible that the helicopter saw all the planes lined up and landing in order on runway 01 and just did not see the one jet that had been diverted to runway 33. There is no question as to who caused this midair collision. The helo was at 325' AGL.... 125' ABOVE the max altitude for that helo corridor (Route 1 to Route 4/200' or BELOW) . The question is WHY?? I would suggest people read the comments below the video. There are former helo pilots, one who flew that route something like 70 times and several controllers who commented. You are correct about the altitude but one of the commenters said something about them being able to go outside that when given visual separation rules. The helo pilot was asked to cross after the plane had gone by which lead me to believe they were looking at the wrong aircraft.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15323986
02/06/25 01:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 83,923
Pilothawk
OP
Pumpkin Head
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OP
Pumpkin Head
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 83,923 |
This is just conjecture but here are my thought:
The young Capt flying the helo had served as some kind of function, social something or other, with team Biden. With the new administration, she was sent back to the line. So she goes to the outfit that does continuity of government in DC. At the time of the crash my guess is that she was getting a night check out for this new mission.
Here the guess work gets deep. The UH60 does not have an autopilot. I think she was at the 200 feet ceiling...but when traffic was called everyone looks for traffic, it is second nature to pull back a tiny bit on the stick or collective, whatever they call it,..slow climb while pilots are looking for traffic.....boom.
I could be off...but this is my best guess...
KANSAS JAYHAWK BASKETBALL - Where tradition comes from 2008 NATIONAL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONS-ORANGE BOWL CHAMPIONS 2008 52 Conf Champs /5 Nat'l Champs
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324053
02/06/25 03:15 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098
Allison1
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
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Posts: 41,098 |
The problem with many of the conclusions here is that the traffic controller had been talking to the helo pilot and several times was told they had eyes on the plane. Obviously that was not the case. Obvious to me anyway.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324064
02/06/25 03:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 83,923
Pilothawk
OP
Pumpkin Head
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OP
Pumpkin Head
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 83,923 |
They did have visual contact....with which aircraft?
KANSAS JAYHAWK BASKETBALL - Where tradition comes from 2008 NATIONAL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONS-ORANGE BOWL CHAMPIONS 2008 52 Conf Champs /5 Nat'l Champs
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324087
02/06/25 04:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098
Allison1
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098 |
They did have visual contact....with which aircraft? Thats the question. It seems apparent to me that the helocopter saw one of the planes landing on runway 01 and not the one the controller was asking them to look out for. Planes were stacked up going into runway 01. The controller asked a plane earlier if they could divert to runway 33. That plane said they couldn't so they were cleared for landing on 01. The controller then asked the plane that was in the collision if they could divert and they agreed to. That video I posted had most of it in it with radar reconstructed from data he had gotten along with communications. "(tower)Pat 25 (the helo) Traffic just south of the Wilson bridge is a CRJ at 1,200' for runway 33". "(the helo)Pat 25 has the aircraft in sight, request visual separation". "(tower) Visual Separation approved". The tower came on later and asked again when they had gotten worried and the helo confirmed they had the plane in sight.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324572
02/06/25 05:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098
Allison1
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
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Posts: 41,098 |
If you don't want to watch the whole video you can start around 8 minutes. That shows how far away the plane was when the blackhawk first said they saw the jet. There were several other planes in the air and the helo pilot could have easily mistaken the planes lined up for 01 instead of the one plane that had been diverted. https://youtu.be/RzQe6W7vcu4
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324574
02/06/25 06:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,879
skeeter175
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,879 |
Either way when the controller got the conflict advisory,he should have had the black hawk change heading and descend,not ask if he had it in sight.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324588
02/06/25 06:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 83,923
Pilothawk
OP
Pumpkin Head
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OP
Pumpkin Head
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Posts: 83,923 |
Could have said, "PAT 25, CRJ at your 12oclock, three miles descending, Confirm traffic in sight."
KANSAS JAYHAWK BASKETBALL - Where tradition comes from 2008 NATIONAL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONS-ORANGE BOWL CHAMPIONS 2008 52 Conf Champs /5 Nat'l Champs
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Pilothawk]
#15324593
02/06/25 06:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,879
skeeter175
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,879 |
That would have probably been enough to avoid a collision.
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Buchbass2]
#15324634
02/06/25 07:08 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 96,271
Bob Davis
Bunkeroid Bob
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Bunkeroid Bob
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 96,271 |
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Re: DCA crash
[Re: Bob Davis]
#15324640
02/06/25 07:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098
Allison1
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 41,098 |
Thats shameful to me that you say that about someone who served with distinction just because. She graduated in the top 20% of all ROTC members in the country. That does not sound like DEI to me.
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