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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14389378 06/09/22 06:58 PM
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Great discussions.
Here's one more to think of - Cedar Creek is an amazing Crappie Lake. It has at least 4 to 5 full time guides working it for Crappie. If they are not Crappie fishing they are building or adding brush to their brush piles. Big Crappie.com has over 1,000 brush piles, they keep track of and try not to fish the same brush pile for at least 2 weeks apart. Year after year that place just keeps producing and it gets hammered year around with Crappie fishing. If a lake was going to show any signs of Livescope being detrimental it would be on Cedar Creek as it has so many fisherman on any given day - Much more than one of the Army Core of Engineers lake such as Ray Roberts. In the cool parts of the year it's such a great dock shooting lake. The bridges and brushpiles in the warm months are fantastic.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14389484 06/09/22 08:51 PM
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I wont blame Livescope for depleting fish populations but its another tool that can put more fish in the boat so it could dang sure play a role if used by more and more fishermen as time goes by.

I never thought I would see the day that Sandbass numbers would dwindle in Lake Ray Hubbard but I can say with 100% certainty that there is no where near as many Sandbass in that lake as there was in the early to mid 1980's when I was growing up. You use to see massive schools of Sandbass on that lake that would surface and stay up for an hour or so. I am talking acres and acres of surfacing fish. Now the average school I see out there is probably smaller than your average house and you are lucky if they stay up for more than a few minutes. You dont even see the massive groups of boats out there chasing them anymore because the numbers have dwindle so much. This was happing well before Livescope so I blame it on fishing pressure since its been swallowed up by urban sprawl.

If it can happen to Sandbass it can dang sure happen to Crappie.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14389592 06/09/22 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by leanin post
Originally Posted by David Welcher
The increase in fisherman is the bigger picture



thats a great point as ALOT of people got into fishing during the height of the pandemic. its one of the few fun things folks had to do, while being able to maintain a distance from others. many of these people who had never got much into fishing are now lifetime enthusiasts.
So much so it created a tackle shortage that has never caught up to demand.
Originally Posted by fishin'aholic2
I think it depends on the lake. The only place I have been to in the last year I have had livescope that I saw spooky fish was Fork and that is the most pressured lake I have been to. I think fishing pressure in general changes the fish's habits over time.


yes fishing pressure, and it is increased dramatically when only the piles that have fish on them are CONSTANLY targeted.
before livescope, a fisherman would go from pile to pile to pile, sampling, spending maybe 15, 20 minutes on each spot. in the back of thier mind, they are going thru the age old questions.. 1 are they here but not biting, 2 are there none here..
So the fisherman had to spend ALOT more time fishing each pile, until they got to one that was productive..
Now its drop the scope, take a look, if theres fish , drop the hook.. if the fish arent active, its off to the next one.,
this is tremedous pressure , whereas the spots holding the fish are almost constanly harrassed. JMO


I don't care how much time you spend per pile, you are only going to catch so many fish on each one. I think hopping from spot to spot is easier on the fish than sitting there for 20 minutes dropping on them trying to get them to bite


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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: SK.] #14389605 06/09/22 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SK.

Every fish biologists will tell you crappie have to be harvested to prevent them from over populating.....


I can take them to a lake and show them where this is absolutely NOT the case.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14389680 06/10/22 01:30 AM
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As with most of these types of questions there's generally a lot more to it than any one particular issue. Crappie have a pretty short life span and their numbers are cyclical depending much more on the spring spawning success rates. Very few crappie make it past four or five years of age. On most of the lakes in our area crappie probably have around a 40 to 50 percent mortality rate. Here's a pretty good article on this: https://www.gameandfishmag.com/editorial/how-boom-or-bust-impacts-crappie-population/374919

The issue I wonder about is whether or not LS will affect long term genetics. Once people get better at using LS, I believe a majority of the largest individuals will be targeted and harvested thereby taking a majority of the best genetics out of the gene pool. Being a trophy catfisherman, this is where I believe we need to try to change the mindset of crappie fisherman. There's a lot of people that would much rather go out and harvest 10 or 12 really big fish than to go out and harvest 20 smaller ones. The catfishing community predominantly release the majority of fish over about ten pounds and you can see the long term effects of that in the records that have fallen in the last decade. Twenty or thirty years ago, fish over a hundred pounds were unheard of. Now you gotta bring a 120 pounder to the scale to even think about the record book. I'm kind of getting off on a tangent though. I think that overall, the crappie will adapt to LS but I think the genetics will go downhill and that record fish will hold for very long periods. I don't think we have to ever worry about not having enough of the best tasting fillets due to LS though. They're not going to disappear from our waters. And if they get harder to find and catch, well, kudos to them for being smart and figuring out how to level the playing field!

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14390626 06/11/22 02:47 AM
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I think there are two undeniable truths in leanin post's comments:
* Live scope helps people catch more fish than they would have otherwise
* The method of sampling our lakes for population are currently very inaccurate

The reason the second bullet point is important is we could prevent over harvesting easily with a more restrictive limit or stocking to replenish population. I truthfully have no idea if we need to take either approach. If, however, we stopped using antiquated/grossly inaccurate techniques to sample populations we could answer that question.

I think the above is (mostly) fact and not arguable. Now comes the opinion piece which you can take with a grain of salt smile

As someone else brought up, Cedar Creek has a lot of guides -- probably at least 10. BUT, it's a 30,000 acre lake. I fish 2 to 3 times per week and can almost always catch a one person limit of crappie or sand bass in less than 3 hours in the spring/summer/fall. I rotate the brush piles that I fish and I release WAY more fish than I keep. We eat crappie once per week but that's probably less than 6 fish per week that I keep on average. I also don't keep any fish over 14". So, I feel like even though I have live scope and can catch a lot of fish, I'm not really hurting the population. Other than guides, I'm assuming there are a lot (not sure if it is the majority) of people like me that can catch limits but never keep a limit. I'm also an exception in terms of times per week I fish -- there are very few anglers that have both the skill to catch a limit and the opportunity to fish multiple times per week. So, my GUESS is, this isn't a problem YET. It might become one but I see no evidence on CC that fishing pressure or over harvesting is negatively impacting the population. BUT, I would welcome a more accurate way of monitoring the population and, if needed, would certainly support more restrictive limits or slots for crappie.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14390673 06/11/22 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by leanin post
Originally Posted by SK.
I have seen that the bigger concentrations of BIG Fish prefer smaller structure years before livescope was every known to exist and now that I have livescope I know for a fact the bigger fish prefer smaller isolated cover.....
What I've heard from a few biologist is the more room there is for crappie the more they will spawn and why as long a the fishermen are legally fishing they won't hurt the population without a big intervention either by nature or by man....
I caught my 3lber on an isolated stump and have won several of my local crappie tourneys by fishing the less pressured stumps.....
I was catching and keeping 25 on some trips before livescope and can still only catch and keep 25 with livescope other than the take my clients have......
Every fish biologists will tell you crappie have to be harvested to prevent them from over populating.....


yes, ive been told the same thing, but your getting this info based on an assumption only..
the biologist have no clue how many crappie are on any lake in texas,
I used to fish a lake called stillhouse hollow and it was fair .. over the years it became horrible, and nothing is done to get the crappie back in there thriving.. TPWD will not stock it, or any other lake with crappie.
The biologist I spoke with abt this lake said it was due to lack of nutrients flowing into the lake as it is a clear, deep lake.
my opinion is that it was the frequent flooding that destroyed spawning grounds because when the lake floods it pulls ALOT of current thru it. if it lacked nutrients, then why were the crappie thriving several years before?
The why is not as important though, whats important is that nobody is going to do anything abt it.
Larger lakes that are thriving and have great spawns year to year wont be affected as much as smaller lakes I think.
Granger lake is another example, but different circumstances.. nutrient rich , relatively stable, but is full of small crappie.
you have to catch 20 to get one 10 inch fish,., this points to overharvesting and fishing pressure. it used to be great but for the last 5 or 6 years, this is how its been, and nothing is done about it..
biologist tend to say, the reason is theres good years and bad years,, but they will be ALRIGHT.,
I think that if the biologist teamed up with fishing guides, and rode around, sampling different locations by using livescope and rod and reel, it could give them a better idea of the crappie population on a lake. being crappie tend to relate to cover and structure, I think helpful data could be collected year to year on approximate fish populations..
If a guide has 300 spots marked on a lake, that are known crappie hangouts, and 30 are randomly sampled,. this could give an idea of the population. log books of catches by guides would be a great way to monitor as well.
I spoke with a white bass guide in central texas many years back,, he is a very successful guide and does it full time. he is a catch and release guide service.. you cannot keep fish on his trips. I asked why he does this, and the reply was " when you let clients keep hundreds of fish day after day after day, you are cutting your own throat'.. he explained to me that the clients for the most part, just want to go on an excursion, they want to feel that tug on thier line, and have a fun positive experience with friends or family. the clients you want are not the ones trying to fill the freezer, its the ones who want knowledge and fun.
The clients he takes out have more of a conservationist mindset, professional background, and are usually well to do, respectful., generous clientele. They appreciate being able to take thier kids out and watch thier faces light up, when catching fish after fish
I thought abt this.. it really makes alot of sense. its his business and he can run it his way.
theres no reason a crappie guide cannot make thier own rules. A guide could say, heres how I run my trips.. I allow a 10 fish limit per client. This is my livelyhood, my passion and im doing my part to insure that you and your family will have a great time CATCHING fish, if you want a freezer full of fish, tilapia is cheap, and Heb has plenty.

. I think the majority of clients would understand and respect this standard,
if you ever talk to an adult who doesnt fish, ask them why
heres what you will likely get from them
well when I was a kid, my dad took me a few times, and we really didnt catch anything,, it was boring and not fun, so we didnt go anymore.


.

Your comment on the lake packed with small fish is what I've seen and read is the result of overpopulation.....
I like referencing my home lake.... Most think the crappie population is down on it just because they can't catch fish out of it.......Meanwhile I go out and can limit most days.....
Some won't make changes to figure the fish out and settle with excuses of why they didn't catch and crappie.....


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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14390960 06/11/22 05:05 PM
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Agree -- over abundance of small fish is due to overpopulation. Too many fish competing for a limited amount of food.

I fished Choke Canyon yesterday and talked to a couple of guys who came by telling me there were no crappie in the lake. I told them I guess the 6 13-14" fish I had on ice, plus the 30+ I'd thrown back must be all the crappie in the lake! grin I ended up the day with a nice bunch of fish and 10 #'s of fillets.

After talking to them, they only fish Choke once or twice a year, mainly during the spawn. They haven't put the time in to figure where the fish are, what the patterns are and what types and sizes of jigs to use.


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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14391147 06/11/22 09:41 PM
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A few more thoughts: Asleep At the Reel posted a podcast on here about 3-4 months ago when he talked with Jake Norman, biologist for Fork area. Chris asked Jake several questions related to this topic. You can find the post I'm sure.

As to what biologist know, they're knowledge is based on sampling techniques and other factors. Sampling techniques for crappie or any other species are basically the same, shocking and net surveys. I've talked to Jake Norman and Tim Bister, biologist for LOP area. They are aware of the short comings of sampling techniques. Tim mentioned they were going to get nets from the LA biologist for the next sample on LOP as they believed the nets they used were better for crappie sampling. Both biologist have been asked numerous times since Livescope came out if this will hurt populations. They are aware of the issue and Jake uses Livescope to crappie fish. Not as if they know nothing about it. There was also a podcast by Crappie Connection talking with a biologist in OK. His comments about crappie were about the same as the two TX biologist. None of them believe Livescope will harm the population. All stated that spawn conditions have a much greater effect on populations than anything fishermen can do.

As far as crappie adapting to Livescope, I think their reactions haven't changed because of LS. Fishermen are just now able to see the reaction. I had plenty of days before LS when you could put a limit in the boat in a couple hrs and then next day almost nada. And days when there were only one or two bites every stop. And days when 3 out of 4 fish were dinks, ect. And days when I changed colors and profiles 4-5 times before I found what they wanted. Still the same for me.

Other than fishing open water roaming fish, we've been able to find and fish structure for years. And could see fish on a pile with 2D or DI. Only difference now is I can drop on an individual fish if I can find my jig. roflmao


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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: David Welcher] #14391177 06/11/22 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by David Welcher
The increase in fisherman is the bigger picture

x2 fish Just look around n. tx near dallas metromess its is shocking the amount of homebuilding/ condos etc. being thrown up, not to mention traffic. Iam sure its same for other areas of tex. Daivd you hit the nail.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14391361 06/12/22 03:07 AM
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Bad spawning years cause year class gaps. As long as they are reproducing we can keep catching.

Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14391507 06/12/22 01:35 PM
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Blah blah blah !!! Iโ€™m catching the same amount of fish I was catching before I got the live scope as you still gotta make em bite. !! Now it does help on the better trees that are holding more fish and piles etc. But this business about hurting the fishing habits !! No itโ€™s not !!

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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14397496 06/18/22 05:28 PM
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nobody really knows, we can only speculate, because this technology is like NOTHING that has ever been used..
look at it like this,, if you could go into a large field of heavy trees, and had a device that could scan thru it and pinpoint exactly where the deer were in a forrest with pinpoint accuracy in real time, and track them wherever they go.. do you think this would not affect how many were harvested?

my biggest concern is the assumption that the crappie population cannot be affected at the 25 fish limit per person per day,,
where did this number come from? how was the standard decided? what was it based on? other states have different daily limits some more some less..
I go back to the fact that TPWD does not and cannot do fish sampling on texas lakes,.,. so it can logically be no more than an ASSUMPTION
how did they decide the daily limit OF 25? why not 20 or 50 or 10?
many other game are tracked with tags, counts, harvest reports, ect. but nobody is tracking crappie populations AT ALL
Ive proven many myths wrong over the years, such as a correlation between crappie spawn and water temp, water being cooler under a dock as opposed to the main lake, water temp changes in different depths, ect.
I look at the facts, not the myths that have been retold for generations.
as of now, there is no know data or reasoning to convince me that crappie will repopulate faster than they can be harvested with the technology we have today.
in general very little research has been done on crappie by anyone.. ALOT is done on bass, but not crappie .
heres another thing, there are lakes in tx with poor crappie populations, but nothing is done abt it, they arent stocked. daily limits arent lowered why is this? I think its because crappie are looked at more as a sunfish, like a perch, and not as important as a bass.


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Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: David Welcher] #14397500 06/18/22 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by David Welcher
Great discussions.
Here's one more to think of - Cedar Creek is an amazing Crappie Lake. It has at least 4 to 5 full time guides working it for Crappie. If they are not Crappie fishing they are building or adding brush to their brush piles. Big Crappie.com has over 1,000 brush piles, they keep track of and try not to fish the same brush pile for at least 2 weeks apart. Year after year that place just keeps producing and it gets hammered year around with Crappie fishing. If a lake was going to show any signs of Livescope being detrimental it would be on Cedar Creek as it has so many fisherman on any given day - Much more than one of the Army Core of Engineers lake such as Ray Roberts. In the cool parts of the year it's such a great dock shooting lake. The bridges and brushpiles in the warm months are fantastic.


the size of a lake has to be considered as well,.,. cedar creek is huge,, some cetral texas lakes are 1/3 rd the size . some even smaller, like navarro mills, tradinghouse reservoir, ect. the cover and structure in different lakes make a huge difference as well. thier water level stability, nutrient intake, and on and on,, theres way too many variables to consider .
it should be looked at on a lake by lake basis.,


COMING SOON! .. THE STICKLE HOOK " the stay level sickle hook". sits level in the water with all knots.! Provides better hook sets and more natural jigging motion. No more adjusting the knot, gluing , or tying loop knots that cause the hook point to tangle in the loop, or worse knick the line.. The jighook that will make all others obsolete !
Re: IS LIVESCOPE GOING TO AFFECT FISH HABITS [Re: leanin post] #14397502 06/18/22 05:41 PM
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heres an example of what livescope is doing
during spawn, most people believed that the majority of crappie spawned shallow, in 3 feet or less.,
Ive know for years that this is not true
90 percent of fisherman would go beat the banks, and if they didnt do well they went home.,
now with livescope, they are finding that many crappie spawn alot deeper, up to 20 feet in some cases
with this knowledge, alot more fish will be caught during spawn, where as they were never touched before.
when alot of the mature, egg laden females get harvested, it will affect the population,.


COMING SOON! .. THE STICKLE HOOK " the stay level sickle hook". sits level in the water with all knots.! Provides better hook sets and more natural jigging motion. No more adjusting the knot, gluing , or tying loop knots that cause the hook point to tangle in the loop, or worse knick the line.. The jighook that will make all others obsolete !
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