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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: crabtrap]
#11137325
09/30/15 07:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,809
Nathan "Bull" Montgomery
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,809 |
When I started the KATS many moons ago, it was based on offering a low cost alternative to PB bass fishing tourneys. I also selected lakes within 50 miles of the center of Austin. Everyone that signed up got a goodie bag full of kayak fishing stuff from sponsors I solicited. There was no raffle, everyone entered got a chance at a drawing for nice free stuff (usually half the field won something). My wife and others prepared hot food for all anglers entered. Games were played while the scoring took place. Nice trophys were donated for each event. I reserved $5 of a $30 entry fee for Paypal and food...the rest went into a 100% payout spread out over a minimum of 5 places. 7 day Off limits were strictly enforced. There was no "Classic", if you won the series, you were top angler for the year. It was fun, which is the reason I got out of my PB and into a kayak...simplicity. Now a days, everyone wants to act like a professional bass fisherman. If kayak fishing tourneys are to grow in the metroplex, it'll take a strong leader making common sense judgements that keeps the playing field level for all to compete in some form. Good luck fellers, I'm out...gone fishing ;-) +1000 The way you just described everything is 100% a tournament that I would like to fish! Low entry fee, prizes for most everyone(even if they are small) food (you get pretty hungry by 3pm) and I also really like the 7 days off limits as well! That being said having someone capable of running a tournament like that and doing all that stuff would be pretty tough. I know the reason I can't make it out to most tournaments is time and money. More so time than anything. I have to work a Saturday or 2 each month, and the tournaments are ALWAYS scheduled on Saturdays and never Sundays so that can be an issue. And with the time issue (at least for me) it makes it hard for me to able to get out a do any practicing or pre fishing. I can pretty much only fish on the weekends and only on a weekend im not working. I think though the thing that most deters me is the higher entry fees of some of the trails. Just hard for me to throw down $50 on a lake I dont get to fish much against guys that fish it all the time. With a lower entry fee ($20-30 is the sweet spot IMO) it makes it a little more do able in my opinion.
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Nathan "Bull" Montgomery]
#11137360
09/30/15 07:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,763
Rhino68W
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,763 |
When I started the KATS many moons ago, it was based on offering a low cost alternative to PB bass fishing tourneys. I also selected lakes within 50 miles of the center of Austin. Everyone that signed up got a goodie bag full of kayak fishing stuff from sponsors I solicited. There was no raffle, everyone entered got a chance at a drawing for nice free stuff (usually half the field won something). My wife and others prepared hot food for all anglers entered. Games were played while the scoring took place. Nice trophys were donated for each event. I reserved $5 of a $30 entry fee for Paypal and food...the rest went into a 100% payout spread out over a minimum of 5 places. 7 day Off limits were strictly enforced. There was no "Classic", if you won the series, you were top angler for the year. It was fun, which is the reason I got out of my PB and into a kayak...simplicity. Now a days, everyone wants to act like a professional bass fisherman. If kayak fishing tourneys are to grow in the metroplex, it'll take a strong leader making common sense judgements that keeps the playing field level for all to compete in some form. Good luck fellers, I'm out...gone fishing ;-) +1000 The way you just described everything is 100% a tournament that I would like to fish! Low entry fee, prizes for most everyone(even if they are small) food (you get pretty hungry by 3pm) and I also really like the 7 days off limits as well! That being said having someone capable of running a tournament like that and doing all that stuff would be pretty tough. I know the reason I can't make it out to most tournaments is time and money. More so time than anything. I have to work a Saturday or 2 each month, and the tournaments are ALWAYS scheduled on Saturdays and never Sundays so that can be an issue. And with the time issue (at least for me) it makes it hard for me to able to get out a do any practicing or pre fishing. I can pretty much only fish on the weekends and only on a weekend im not working. I think though the thing that most deters me is the higher entry fees of some of the trails. Just hard for me to throw down $50 on a lake I dont get to fish much against guys that fish it all the time. With a lower entry fee ($20-30 is the sweet spot IMO) it makes it a little more do able in my opinion. Well put. I think Sundays would should be an option too. I know it would have other conflicts for people, but for me and others it would be easier. That sweet spot is right on too. Makes it a lot easier for a newbie like me to go out there.
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Rhino68W]
#11137382
09/30/15 07:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,269
jasoniam
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,269 |
Well put. I think Sundays would should be an option too. I know it would have other conflicts for people, but for me and others it would be easier. That sweet spot is right on too. Makes it a lot easier for a newbie like me to go out there.
I'm with that! Saturdays are always hard for me as I work 60% of em! Sundays Would definately be awesome!!! Plus for me distance is key! Alot of these tourneys are Fork and other places that most of the time are a ways for me!! And kudos to Mr Wallace for stepping up to the plate like that! Always had great respect for the guy who always does his best to create a better fishing atmosphere!
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: APT]
#11137400
09/30/15 07:36 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 507
FishyB
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 507 |
Rick, I sent you an email to your gmail account.
FishyB Brent
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: APT]
#11137414
09/30/15 07:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,087
Robbie Milam
TFF Celebrity
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,087 |
I have lots of thoughts on this. Take them with a grain of salt by someone who has been on every side of this fence. I'd love to see a big trail happen but it is more than just agreeing to work on it together.Here are some things to consider.
1. Kayak Fishing Tournaments are a money losing endeavor. It is hard to put together a business plan as suggested above that people will be able to sign off on. You ask for shops to run it but they are also opened on a lot of tournament days. Saturdays are some of the busiest retail days yet you would ask for staff to run an event. That's a hard sell. Asking the same shop to donate some kayaks to entice more people to fish the trail is a $$$ drain for the shop as well. Even if volunteers run it for the shop, how weary will they grow of not being paid and spending 12+ hours at least one Saturday a month for a good part of the year watching everyone else fish? I work three big tourneys a year, they average 150 people at each. I get compensated for my time there. I am absolutely exhausted when it's done. A three day event takes seven days of time there for a big event with coordination of entities, lodging, tech, registrants prefishing, judging, prizes, cash, accounting, travel and the list goes on and on. If you are paying people, you have get that money from somewhere. You could pull it out of the prize money but then it would be shamed on the internet for not being 100% payback. That is why you see so many charge "membership fees" to fish their trails. It costs money to do events and anglers want everyone else to pony it up. What is the end gain of sponsoring a trail? Exposure, maybe you'll sell a few more kayaks? Brand awareness?
2. Location Austin has hot water lakes with low fee or free access and spring fed lakes where fish are abundant and anyone can catch fish. We had a few guys locally drive to Austin to pay higher fees on a Thursday tournament because of the lakes. Pride eats at a lot of tournament fishermen. If the lakes are tough they'd rather not go than show and zero. Yes, you read that right. We had multiple guys drive 80 miles to Austin one way to fish a $25 entry fee on a weeknight against guys who fish those lakes weekly rather than staying local, paying $20 and fish their home lake. Austin is kayak bass fishing Mecca. Duplicating its success will be hard. I understand Lake Fork is in the DFW area but honestly it is two hours away from a lot of people. Monti is a ways off too. Austin has a 12 month fishing season and growing season. DFW doesn't. Realistically, 100+ anglers once a month when conditions can be as tough as they are is a hard ask. If Lady Bird and Bastrop which are both within 30 minutes of most of the Austin area anglers were instead located in Arlington, you'd have something.
3. The model KATS, which is the big numbers trail, is supported by 1 shop. And a big one at that. In management systems you learn as the contributing voices get too many in number, progress slows. There is a happy sweet spot for contributors. Then, after all of that, who is going to run it and have final say? There has to be a buck stops here person. And from experience, I can tell you it ain't fun to be that guy.
4. The motivation What is the motivation for wanting a big trail? Do you want more prizes or more money? Do you want to sell more kayaks or are you looking to grow the community?
Community growth is done over food, fellowship and fun times. Some people have a good time at tournaments but MOST new people who are thinking about kayak fishing aren't interested in fishing for money. The best times I've ever had have been at get togethers, river floats, buddy trips etc. I can't remember ANY tournament that I enjoyed more than a G2G. Not one. I've had fun and been entertained but when you take the money stress out of an event, the attitudes of so many people relax. That relaxation moment, the deep exhale of shedding the week's stress with that first paddle stroke is what we should share. Community growth sells more kayaks. Community growth helps everyone, especially the hosting shop.
Tournament growth is done over prizes and cash. You have to get out of the mindset of trinkets if you want to get big. You have to develop relationships with companies who will put money into the prize pot, not just a paddle or cup. Forging large company relationships help. Prizes and the like work well for social divisions but if it is a payout you are after, thinking beyond just three or four local businesses is a must. The way I see Dallas and the Metro getting 100+ people to events is by convincing bass boat guys to come chase kayak money. Show them that they could win $5,000, $10,000 or more with a good stringer out of a kayak that has pedals or a paddle or even a trolling motor. A $4,000 kayak setup is a drop in the bucket to what these guys are spending. People "graduate" from kayak fishing to power boats for money and sponsorship opportunities. Cultivating those same sponsorships in kayaks will attract them back and gain a new market share.
So is it possible to do community growth and tournament growth at the same time? Sure but you have to think bigger. People won't show up in droves for trinkets and a chance unless there is another draw. A G2G with a tournament is a good start. People will travel from 2,000 miles away for a chance at $25,000. If you could combine the two on a big scale and do an Outdoor Retailer style paddle fest, tournament, bbq dinner and fund raiser all on the same weekend then you would have the ear of the big sponsors. Chambers of Commerce would fight over you if you held events at a local venue that could draw 500+ people over multiple days. Especially if they are getting hotel rooms. Have something for the whole family to do while one of them is out chasing a check. Make it a show!
So, that's my feedback. Take it for what you will. You have a few things in your favor and a few that aren't but with enough people it might just happen. I've been in the fishing industry for many years, and I have to say you nailed it. I would also like to invite the owners of the other retail stores in the DFW area, along with those who are running tournament trails to a sit down so we can discuss the future and how we can all work together. I've attempted this in the past, with no success, So I'm reaching out again to offer the opportunity. I can be reached at 817-503-2333. I hope we can put this together soon. Great post Chris. Rick, it's awesome to see you reach out like this. To all the local shops pro-staffers, please let your shop owner know that Rick is reaching out.
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: jasoniam]
#11137415
09/30/15 07:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,617
C-Frog
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,617 |
[quote=Rhino68W] Well put. I think Sundays would should be an option too. I know it would have other conflicts for people, but for me and others it would be easier. That sweet spot is right on too. Makes it a lot easier for a newbie like me to go out there. almost every Saturday is out for me in the fall, Sundays would be a lot easier to swing
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Coach P]
#11137566
09/30/15 09:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,402
Jerry Hamon
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,402 |
Good luck folks. This has already turned into what the original poster stated it shouldn't.
Owner/Guide at River Crossing Guide Service
(214) 457-3407 revtcf@gmail.com
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Jerry Hamon]
#11137573
09/30/15 09:15 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 775
Wafflejaw
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 775 |
Good luck folks. This has already turned into what the original poster stated it shouldn't. What do you mean, Jerry?
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Jerry Hamon]
#11137577
09/30/15 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,151
APT
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,151 |
Good luck folks. This has already turned into what the original poster stated it shouldn't. Don't understand Jerry, care to elaborate?
Rick Wallace Angler's Pro Tackle & Outdoorshttps://anglersprotackle.com Financing - Free Lay-Away - Gift Certificates - Special OrdersServing Free Gourmet Popcorn Since 2009
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Coach P]
#11137606
09/30/15 09:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 984
The Black Hammer
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 984 |
Guys, we can all work something out. This will be fun. We've got lots of stuff in the works. Those of you who know me, know that is my intention and it for sure is in the works. My weeks will free up some after this weekend and I plan to visit everyone and "talk". Until then tight lines!!!
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: APT]
#11137669
09/30/15 10:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,402
Jerry Hamon
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,402 |
Good luck folks. This has already turned into what the original poster stated it shouldn't. Don't understand Jerry, care to elaborate? More of an off line discussion but here goes. Not aware that any other dealers were ever contacted in reference to this. I've worked with both Mountain Sports and Backwoods on several occasions.
Owner/Guide at River Crossing Guide Service
(214) 457-3407 revtcf@gmail.com
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Jerry Hamon]
#11137727
09/30/15 10:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,151
APT
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,151 |
Good luck folks. This has already turned into what the original poster stated it shouldn't. Don't understand Jerry, care to elaborate? More of an off line discussion but here goes. Not aware that any other dealers were ever contacted in reference to this. I've worked with both Mountain Sports and Backwoods on several occasions. You weren't there so I can understand why you weren't aware. Anyway, I am interested in talking to the other retail owners, and tournament trail owners to work out a program where all involved will benefit, and most of all it will benefit the kayak community and grow the sport.
Rick Wallace Angler's Pro Tackle & Outdoorshttps://anglersprotackle.com Financing - Free Lay-Away - Gift Certificates - Special OrdersServing Free Gourmet Popcorn Since 2009
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Coach P]
#11137773
09/30/15 10:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,009
crabtrap
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,009 |
Kayak fishing tourneys are fatally flawed in the fact they can't do a live weigh in. It appears the norm is CPR for scoring. This system is OK for small, low dollar payouts but IMHO should definitely NOT be used in any tournament paying out over a few hundred bucks. It simply is not accurate and leaves doors wide open for cheating...as does the minimal off limits period. I'm not pointing fingers but I know I can catch a fish, CPR it, and catch that same fish again for another score. This is just one example. Most of our lakes are slot lakes so one can not retain any fish thus complicating the problem of weigh ins. The lakes chosen have logistic problems too. Big bucks tourneys need everyone starting from the same place, same time. What you end up with is people fishing on top of each other...kayaks only have so much range. Choosing a lake is another issue. I don't know DFW lakes but I always used the rule of thumb to keep them on lakes no bigger than a couple thousand acres. Finally, I suggest unless there are good fishing hot house lakes up in your neighborhood, ya'll need to start your tourneys later in the year. From what I read, events in Jan/Feb up your way can turn bad quick. Anyway, just chunking my $.02 into the mix to chew on.
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Coach P]
#11137788
09/30/15 11:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 365
Jason Delfraisse
Angler
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Angler
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 365 |
I could be wrong but I don't think any of the local (dfw) area shops have ever booked same day tournaments? I don't think this is the problem. I see the problem as turnout period. We are a very new scene up here as compared to other locations. Last year we had an average of 5 anglers show up for the Thursday nighters. This year we have averaged closer to 20. Things are growing guys!!! You can't just flip a switch and have 100 people show up. If we just continue to provide great tournaments by dedicated people and shops, that is all we can do. The lakes up here are not [censored] as stated above! We have some of the best lakes in the state! They just take time and hard work to figure out. I hope to see everyone out at the tournaments. I'm not trying to stir anything this is just all my Opinion.
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Re: What's wrong with DFW kayak tournaments?
[Re: Coach P]
#11137801
09/30/15 11:15 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,241
ETBA
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,241 |
Regardless of the past, whatever that may be...
Rick has now extended an invite and it's up to each of you pro staffers and tournament organizers, to step up and help bring our scene together. I've talked to alot of you guys and we've all said it would be beneficial to have a sit down, to avoid conflicts and make sure everyone benefits.
I think This is a pivotal point for ALL of us, an opportunity to fix some things that need to be addressed. It seems like the majority of us are on the same page, so let's get together and iron things out.
Swimbaits Only.
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