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Jan 23rd, 2013
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Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years #14518316 10/28/22 01:48 PM
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�Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?" - The Messiah
Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14519895 10/29/22 06:34 PM
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Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years
In the 1990s my wife and I operated a cash retail business selling produce at farmer's markets in a large urban area. We began carrying before widespread CCW permitting under our state's affirmative defense provision. We choose Sig P229s for reliability, recoil management, and cartridge flexibility. With a combination of factory and Bar-Sto barrels, the same pistols can shoot 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 Sig with no other modifications. We learned that brass cased 9mm feeds flawlessly from Sig P229 magazines designed for .40 S&W which hypothetically enabled one to carry more than 10 rounds in the era when the assault weapons ban limited new magazines to holding 10 rounds ...

We completed the NRA Marksmanship Qualification program on our farm property to build skills and gain confidence. My preferred load was the Federal 125 grain hollow point in .357 Sig, and it was both accurate and effective on varmints and deer. Lots of racoons, groundhogs, and rabbits in the garden succombed to this load. The round was so effective on deer it left little doubt it would work well against two legged predators. I liked the DA/SA trigger allowing me to [censored] the pistol for longer shots, including a 150 yard kill on a varmint in a corn field resting the pistol on a fence post.

I got increasing amounts of training, including some nationally known instructors and also earned creds as an NRA instructor myself for basic pistol and personal protection courses. In addition to safety and marksmanship, my training emphasized dressing around the gun instead of carrying a gun too small to shoot well. I also learned about situational awareness and that you win every gunfight you avoid. The keys to avoiding gunfights are 1) Don't go to stupid places 2) Don't hang out with stupid people and 3) Don't do stupid things.

I study crime maps to avoid high crime areas. On rare occasions when I do need to visit a high crime area, my head is on a swivel, I don't go alone, and I go at a day and time when criminal attacks are an absolute minimum. I've also learned to simply leave when thugs show up. Escape and evasion are more important than shooting skills for real warriors. If you're paying attention, you'll often notice when people with criminal inclinations enter a setting. The way thugs enter a room and scan for victims is very different from how military and law enforcement enter and scan for thugs. Better operators are harder to notice. Since it's true that you shouldn't go anywhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one, it's also true that you shouldn't stay anywhere with a gun that you wouldn't stay without one. Escape and evasion are key warrior skills both to prevent unneeded conflict AND to fight unavoidable battles under the most favorable conditions.

As a self-defense instructor and competitor, I've had the chance to work with citizens shooting lots of different guns. There are more pistol options today than there were 20 years ago. But the recent design emphasis has been on adding features rather than core functionality and long term reliability. We prefer to stick with proven reliability since every trip to the gunsmith will soon amount to a re-registration with the ATF if it doesn't already. If you're shooting 1000+ rounds per year to stay sharp with your skills, you want a gun like the Sig P229 with a very high round count between failures.

As an expert witness in ballistics, I review a lot of case material. Unlike many other designs, I've never reviewed credible claims blaming this Sig for unintended discharges. It's a design most likely to go bang when you want it to and only when you want it to. Keep your booger hook off the trigger and it ain't gonna go bang.

I should mention a couple caveats about shooting 9mm from the P229s designed for .357 Sig and .40 S&W. The original magazines feed brass cased 9mm flawlessly, but the higher friction of steel cased 9mm will cause feeding failures at rates from 1-5%, so you'll want to buy some dedicated 9mm magazines to shoot steel cased 9mm. Also, the factory extractor on sides designed for .40 S&W and .357 Sig fails on 9mm less than 0.5% of the time, but it does occasionally fail. These failure rates are acceptable to our family in competition, but may be unacceptable for self-defense uses. I recommend shooting your gun a lot in practice and competition and choosing a combination that runs flawlessly for your defensive applications.

My bottom line is that we've never seen a better pistol for self-defense use. The multi-cartridge capabilities and ease of switching cartridges with only a barrel swap position shooters well to maintain practice regimens even during ammo shortages. Solid and precise construction ensures accuracy and reliability at levels other production guns only dream of. We like the trigger, the sights, and the wide availability of accessories. These are pistols that will serve you well for your entire lifetime and most likely for several generations after they plant you in the ground.

True warriors view violence as a last resort, remembering the Biblical instruction, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." We don't want blood on our hands, but if you threaten the freedom of the nation we serve or pose an imminent danger to the people love, we will act in accordance with our oaths, covenants, and promises. Yes, violate fundamental covenants and your blood is on your own head.


�Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?" - The Messiah
Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14520082 10/29/22 11:45 PM
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You have obviously never shot John Moses Brownings 111 year old masterpiece.

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14520474 10/30/22 04:02 PM
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Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14520495 10/30/22 04:28 PM
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Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?


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Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: Pat Goff] #14520519 10/30/22 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?



A few years back I ask the same question to the guy trying to sale me a CCW he was a retired detective. He and his wife taught the CCW classes in northern Wyoming. This was is answer, he opened his shirt and point to where the 45 caliber round went just left of his heart by about 1.5 and went out under his arm. He stated glad he was shooting a 45 and not a 9MM or he may have hit his target. He stated with today’s loads of critical carry ammo even A 380 can take down a person but 9MM with Critical carry Ammo can do what’s needed. He stated the average person under stress struggles with hitting a target and a 9 mm is usually the better round. He did state if you can maintain control a 45 obviously has more knock down but a well placed shot with a 9mm and he would be dead. Your big guy with me shooting a 9mm at close range will not get to me. I usually carry a 380 in my pocket but if I have a uneasy feeling I carry a 9MM, if I am in a bad area is my Kimber Utra Carry 45 it conceals really well

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14520839 10/31/22 12:32 AM
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Not really want to stir up an argument and this topic is one of the best ever.

There are really just two rules in a gunfight.

1. Have a gun
2. Know how to use it.

I will say our great uncle was the one who taught all of the kids how to shoot, and how to conduct yourself. He was a retired Texas Ranger and I promise he required your full attention.

His big thing was if the threat is ten feet away your only job is to make sure he doesn’t get to five feet.

The only one out of the mob of cousins who actually used the training was a girl cousin who removed a ferals face in New Orleans that thought she was a good car jacking target.


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Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: Pat Goff] #14520884 10/31/22 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Not really want to stir up an argument and this topic is one of the best ever.

There are really just two rules in a gunfight.

1. Have a gun
2. Know how to use it.

I will say our great uncle was the one who taught all of the kids how to shoot, and how to conduct yourself. He was a retired Texas Ranger and I promise he required your full attention.

His big thing was if the threat is ten feet away your only job is to make sure he doesn’t get to five feet.

The only one out of the mob of cousins who actually used the training was a girl cousin who removed a ferals face in New Orleans that thought she was a good car jacking target.


I agree stop the threat period. I hope none of us have to ever find out what we will do but I hope all of us are ready if need be. We live in dangerous times

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: Pat Goff] #14520896 10/31/22 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?


What happened to the 21' rule you were babbling about a few months ago? Unless your "special" math makes 3 yards 21".....10' with a machete, you'll be sliced up a bit.

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: bshort] #14521083 10/31/22 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bshort
Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?


What happened to the 21' rule you were babbling about a few months ago? Unless your "special" math makes 3 yards 21".....10' with a machete, you'll be sliced up a bit.


Put the pipe down.
I'm impressed you're such a fan that you hang on every word I've ever written. But no, not interested in any sort of romance.

In CONTEXT what you refer to is in most self defense classes, they take a person 21' feet away and see if you can react before they are on top of you. If you're going to use my words against me, at least get it right.


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Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: Pat Goff] #14521128 10/31/22 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Originally Posted by bshort
Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?


What happened to the 21' rule you were babbling about a few months ago? Unless your "special" math makes 3 yards 21".....10' with a machete, you'll be sliced up a bit.


Put the pipe down.
I'm impressed you're such a fan that you hang on every word I've ever written. But no, not interested in any sort of romance.

In CONTEXT what you refer to is in most self defense classes, they take a person 21' feet away and see if you can react before they are on top of you. If you're going to use my words against me, at least get it right.



I doubt many people would get a shot off if gun is concealed from just 21’
I am guessing by the time from 21’ you realize they are coming for you it’s to late
I believe head on a swivel in bad areas, to give yourself a chance

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: Pat Goff] #14521142 10/31/22 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?



Run like hell while you're getting your gun out, I learnt that in Zombieland

Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14521148 10/31/22 03:02 PM
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So we can expect a review on the P365X Macro in 2042?


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#rememberthe28

Originally Posted by KQT
Of course we have a gun problem and unfortunately sick people can’t obtain them and kill.


Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: elcoyote, esq.] #14521167 10/31/22 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?



The reviewed pistol comes in .357 Sig, .40S&W, and 9mm, so why limit the question to 9mm?

Further, what are the odds of encountering that specific risk assessment? Do we really need to focus our gear on a six sigma risk?


Originally Posted by elcoyote, esq.
So we can expect a review on the P365X Macro in 2042?


Doubtful, more likely a 40 year review of the P229.


�Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?" - The Messiah
Re: Warrior 101- Review of Sig P229 Pistol after 20+ Years [Re: MathGeek] #14521244 10/31/22 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MathGeek
Originally Posted by Pat Goff
Rule of 3
Three yards.
Three seconds.
Three rounds.

Your threat is 6' 7", really motivated to remove your head, ten feet away with a machete. How many of those 9mm rounds will it take to keep him off you?



The reviewed pistol comes in .357 Sig, .40S&W, and 9mm, so why limit the question to 9mm?

Further, what are the odds of encountering that specific risk assessment? Do we really need to focus our gear on a six sigma risk?


Originally Posted by elcoyote, esq.
So we can expect a review on the P365X Macro in 2042?


Doubtful, more likely a 40 year review of the P229.


Rule of 3 is what the vast majority of civilian gun fights fall under, not what you'd call six sigma, or anything close to that. For every encounter that happened at 50 feet, there's 20 that happened at less than ten. I was taught if you're prepared for the rule of three, you're prepared.


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Seadrift TX
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