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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10504875
12/31/14 01:05 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,245
DedShort
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,245 |
Too many people, too much unnecessary irrigation, too little rain. I have never heard anyone mention the SWPPP plans on all new construction projects we see now, or the fact that almost every development requires some sort of retention pond, which naturally, holds water. I don't know how many new neighborhood ponds and lakes that have appeared over the last 20 years, but that is water which never makes it to the rivers and lakes. Maybe just another drop in the bucket, but at this point we have to look at everything.
I haven't watered my yard more than 3 times in the last 2 years. We only do full loads of laundry, no I have coached the Wife and Kids about taking shorter showers. I personally think that most water spent on landscaping is wasted and should be kept to a minimum. We shouldn't ever lift water restrictions, even when the lakes are full. We all need to start thinking differently about water as the population continues to explode here in Texas. As far as Fraccing is concerned, it is a necessary evil for an essential resource, but I think reclaimed water needs to be used as much as possible, and waste should always be kept at a minimum.
"Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have." - Harry Emerson Fosdick
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: Fishbreeder]
#10510944
01/02/15 04:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 59
THAPCO4
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 59 |
Actually that was a typo, it is 77 billion (which does make the other numbers not AS extreme).
As for the "water cycle" we learned about in grade school. Yes it is "stored" and will be returned to the cycle on a continuing basis. However, it is not "available" water. Based on the logic that it is stored and will be returned, so will all the water that is used for irrigation and other things discussed above.
Also, I remember seeing somewhere a couple of years ago that the US uses 45.5 Trillion (I got the first letter correct this time) on irrigation per year. That is for the entire country, so it isn't really that much, especially considering "not in the context of California".
Also, Fishbreeder, please don't take this as me attacking you or being "defensive". I just believe there is a lot more re: water "availability" that what people want to admit or consider. I also don't believe that most of the statistics re: this are accurate and truthful. In reality, the answer to the proposed question is, there is not really anything that we can do based on current technology. THE PROBLEM IS POPULATION. People need water, the more people the more water is needed.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: THAPCO4]
#10511093
01/02/15 05:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385
Fishbreeder
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385 |
Actually that was a typo, it is 77 billion (which does make the other numbers not AS extreme).
As for the "water cycle" we learned about in grade school. Yes it is "stored" and will be returned to the cycle on a continuing basis. However, it is not "available" water. Based on the logic that it is stored and will be returned, so will all the water that is used for irrigation and other things discussed above.
Also, I remember seeing somewhere a couple of years ago that the US uses 45.5 Trillion (I got the first letter correct this time) on irrigation per year. That is for the entire country, so it isn't really that much, especially considering "not in the context of California".
Also, Fishbreeder, please don't take this as me attacking you or being "defensive". I just believe there is a lot more re: water "availability" that what people want to admit or consider. I also don't believe that most of the statistics re: this are accurate and truthful. In reality, the answer to the proposed question is, there is not really anything that we can do based on current technology. THE PROBLEM IS POPULATION. People need water, the more people the more water is needed. makes better sense.... Where water is scarce, people have learned to use a lot less. Our problem is less population density (although that is an issue) and more unwillingness to conserve by changing lifestyles. Just by no longer having green grass watered lawns, and golf course we save nearly half. Alternatively, using recycled grey water for such things rather than new water. Places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Antonio, and El Paso could do much better. Yeah them fountains is impressive, but all that evaporation and all the water needed to not only replace, but to keep from becoming too salty, that fountain water is substantial. Not to mention all the golf courses in all those places. Plus, fossil water, like that in much of the desert, is not renewed or replenished on a regular basis. Then we could go away from flush toilets and into composting, like Northern Europeans do. Desalination for drinking water along the coast, although costly, its better than no water and is within the realm of what can be done now. With what we already know and have at our disposal we could do a lot more than we now do. As to statistical accuracy....we all know that our government is extremely truthful and forthcoming with respect to its citizenry...right? In the meantime, it does no good to blame farmers for using too much water in the process of producing food. Most farmers I know are extremely frugal and would not use one drop more than they need, as even for them, water is terribly expensive, especially as expressed as a percentage of production expenses. What we should be concerned with is centralized control of water resources either by the government or industry....T. Boone Pickens anybody?
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10511952
01/02/15 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,145
hook-line&sinker
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,145 |
Since wide scale voluntary water conservation doesn't seem to be forthcoming what will come is a perfect storm of government regulation and economic controls (high prices $$$) that shut the faucet off for everyone but those few who can afford it.. more and more the general population only responds to economic pressures that affect them.. if water costs too much to waste it will be used differently. The solution is pretty simple but it starts with everyone doing their part for the greater good of all... If you really want to worry about something just look at the drought of self sacrifice in today's America.
>)));> Wishin' I was Fishin' <;(((<
“Personnel is the most vital and important aspect of any industry. If you’re just going to grind them up, it’s not going to end well for anybody.” SCOTT REINARDY
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10512143
01/03/15 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,377
Scoundrel
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,377 |
There's still hope for The Affordable Water Care Act in the next 2 years.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10513121
01/03/15 02:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,163
9094
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,163 |
How much would zeros capping save? Does anyone on here realize that every bigger city REQUIRES that businesses not grandfathered have full landscaping with grass and trees and water systems instead of virtually maintenance free and water free zero scalping? One thing everyone could do that lives in a city that requires this huge waste of water and huge expense to the business owners could start going to city hall meetings and get petitions to have these laws changed. Also like some far west cities give a property tax credit to home owners that zero scape to save water. Trust me this alone would make a huge difference in water usage.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: 9094]
#10513235
01/03/15 03:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385
Fishbreeder
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385 |
How much would zeros capping save? Does anyone on here realize that every bigger city REQUIRES that businesses not grandfathered have full landscaping with grass and trees and water systems instead of virtually maintenance free and water free zero scalping? One thing everyone could do that lives in a city that requires this huge waste of water and huge expense to the business owners could start going to city hall meetings and get petitions to have these laws changed. Also like some far west cities give a property tax credit to home owners that zero scape to save water. Trust me this alone would make a huge difference in water usage. "Xeriscape" but I get the point. Seems the city gets a sure fire sale of high priced, purified water to every business park in it. Good way to extract more money from businesses without having to call it a "tax." Just one example of why we have issues with consumptive use of water, especially in municipalities. The irrigation I use, and is most common in my county is actually a non-consumptive use as most of the water is returned to the stream it was taken out of or to adjacent streams. I fill out a report and send it in every year. Many years I actually return more water than I took, as I have considerable storage capacity and watershed along with my creek pump and water wells.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: Fishbreeder]
#10513374
01/03/15 04:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,543
BigDave1
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,543 |
The problem is no rain and CHEAP water. For the most part voluntary restrictions don't work because the "Me First" mentality of this country is you should be restricted so I can have more water to use as I please.
Simple solution is RAIN! In the meantime, continue & increase severity of mandatory restrictions which have worked to a certain degree AND/OR increase the price of water as to influence more compliance with the restrictions. The increased fees would be mandated for building new lakes or dredgin up old ones or payin for desalination. This mandated use of additional water cost would be needed or the municipalities would just use the increase as a veiled tax. Again, it will take RAIN to fill the new capacity.
Let's face it folks, water use restrictions are here to stay.
Realistically, desalination would only be effective for drinkin water as it would be way too costly for overall water usage with current technology.
Last edited by BigDave1; 01/03/15 04:42 PM.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10513555
01/03/15 05:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606
ChuChu1
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,606 |
A sad example of the problem is San Antonio. They have never gone further than Stage 1 water conservation which is voluntary conservation measures. They have avoided the more strict measures because they have obtained water from other resources besides the Edwards Aquifer. The other sources are "buying" water from areas away from the aquifer such as underground water from Gonzales County. They are currently planning to get water from close to Caldwell, Texas.
Snowflakes and entitled brats will be the doom of America!
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: Scoundrel]
#10515469
01/04/15 05:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,369
armadilla
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,369 |
This is the answer:There's still hope for The Affordable Water Care Act in the next 2 years. Here is how it would work: The Affordable Water Care Act opens the southern border to everyone in Central and South America, and anyone else in the world who can get there... We invite them all to Texas, maybe pay them with some bennies for coming here....you know, free educations, free health care, free housing, just free stuff... its all free, costs no one anything. So, you have millions of people coming into the state bringing in their water... ("the average person is carrying around 14 gallons of water at any given time")... multiply all those 14 gallons times the number of folks coming in... Voila... there is your solution... millions and millions of gallons of new water!!!! Problem solved.
Last edited by armadilla; 01/05/15 10:35 PM.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: NjTexan]
#10519610
01/06/15 12:36 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,846
donothin
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,846 |
Reusing gray water just means less is discharged into streams to be caught in a lake downstream. Some gain, but not as much as it would seem.
Most of the cost of municipal water is the treatment and delivery to customer costs. Some more than farmers pay, but not nearly as much as it would seem.
Most of the surface water that is used by farmers is water that is held by senior water right holders. In many cases they helped or sponsored the reservoir that holds the water.
Someone mentioned that groundwater belongs to all of us. Not true. Surface water belongs to the state of Texas, but groundwater belongs to whomever can pump it for a beneficial use.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10519628
01/06/15 12:41 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,846
donothin
TFF Team Angler
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TFF Team Angler
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,846 |
And btw, landscape water is very significant. Even in areas that are water challenged, like San Antonio, the landscape use is huge.
The firm yield of a reservoir is the amount of water available from that reservoir during a duplicate of the drought of record. Often building additional reservoirs merely reduces the firm yield of another.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: armadilla]
#10520104
01/06/15 02:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,377
Scoundrel
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,377 |
Alrighty. We can all try to overachieve when traveling out of state and carry back an extra gallon of water when we come back to TX.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: donothin]
#10520992
01/06/15 04:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385
Fishbreeder
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,385 |
Reusing gray water just means less is discharged into streams to be caught in a lake downstream. Some gain, but not as much as it would seem.
Most of the cost of municipal water is the treatment and delivery to customer costs. Some more than farmers pay, but not nearly as much as it would seem.
Most of the surface water that is used by farmers is water that is held by senior water right holders. In many cases they helped or sponsored the reservoir that holds the water.
Someone mentioned that groundwater belongs to all of us. Not true. Surface water belongs to the state of Texas, but groundwater belongs to whomever can pump it for a beneficial use. Well, not anymore......I was involved with the research then drilling and operation of the world's largest water well ever. Period. Located 17 miles SW of San Antonio and now plugged, it operated twice for just over a grand total of 6 months. When the well was drilled, it was done under the doctrine of "Free Capture" which says a person who owns their land and subsurface rights can drill a water well and bring that water to the surface for almost any use they have in mind, it belonged to them. After the well was drilled all that changed. Nowadays its a mishmash of groundwater districts, state jurisdiction through TCEQ and local authorities, no more "free capture." In many cases it is taxed heavily by such beauracracies so they can have nice offices, big salaries and good benefits while telling people how to live....kinda like being a politician. Add to that since 2011 surface water is no longer allocated through the doctrines of riparian rights OR the doctrine of prior appropriation. Now it is prioritized during periods of low flow by a statewide watermaster. Municipalities receiving the highest priority, superceding farmer's right of prior appropriation or riparian rights. Even though, as mentioned above by donothin that the farmers financed a lot of the infrastructure now in use. There is little doubt that grey water re-use is consumptive, and results in lowered stream flows in some cases. However, in others it actually contributes to stream flow and is usually of a higher quality when released from such uses than it was when it was impounded. It is an issue that will rise to the fore next time it quits raining. One that is complex and needs a lot of forethought to address.
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Re: Dry lakes----what can we do?
[Re: texsam]
#10521093
01/06/15 04:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,621
psycho0819
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,621 |
I see a lot of things being considered here for conservation of valuable water. One thing I do not see mentioned is probably one of the biggest water wasters in industry today, commercial/industrial cooling towers. Cooling towers use evaporative cooling to remove heat from water, which is then sent back to a chilled water A/C system, often used in large buildings and manufacturing. The water in a cooling tower is pumped up to the top of a tower where it is allowed to cascade down through the tower while a large fan pulls air across it, cooling it down. I have worked on a lot of these cooling towers over the years, and a moderate (50-100ton) cooling tower can/will be responsible for close to 1,000 gallons a day of evaporation. There are many of them in dallas that are several times that size, too many to list. That doesn't sound like much, until you consider that every high rise in the city uses this method, almost every manufacturing facility, some multi-family residential applications, and the list goes on, and on, and on.
These cooling towers are piped into city water for "make-up" water, to replace what is lost to evaporation. That is a huge consumption of water! So next time you are cheering because Perry brought a couple of new manufacturers to Texas, remember those millions of gallons of water they will be responsible for. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against industry, but they universally get a pass when they shouldn't. We need to be looking at every aspect of water consumption, not just what the individual can do to save a few gallons here and there or the farmer who grows our food. Fair for one should be fair for all.
Do I have a magic solution to this particular issue? No. Just thought I'd give y'all someone else to harp on while you're excoriating the golf courses and homeowners.
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!
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