Someone mentioned that 95% of the posts or something like that that favor the GG are from sellers. I wonder how many of the negative posts are from competitors.

Here is one from a non-seller. I wonder how many of those who post negatives have actually grown the GG under controlled conditions. I have...and have fully documented my study. You can read about it on my website.

I found that most of the [censored] posted on the 'net is just that...[censored]. The GG have a place for the smart pond manager. The advantages they offer are low reproduction, quick growth, aggressive feeding, and survivability in low O2 conditions.

They are not suitable for larger bass ponds and are not recommended to be stocked with other bluegills...however Nature finds a way. In the pond I stocked them years ago, they have somehow crossed with coppernose that I never stocked there and the resulting fish is pretty amazing.

Yes, they have a place. Yes, there is a lot of mis-information out there from people who have other motives. Don't believe 95% of what you read on the 'net. Go fishing and find out for yourself.

This subject is readily researchable by anyone who has a computer and the willingness to do the reading. Georgia Giants are a hybrid; outbreeding depression is not some concept I made up, or a theory that has not been proven, but scientific fact. I didn't learn it from a competitor of the hatchery that sells Georgia Giants; I learned it from scholarly articles written by fisheries biologists. There have been not one or two, but many studies on the performance of hybrid bluegill compared to regular bluegill, done by fisheries biologists working in the field. I suppose the person who posted above would lump all of them into the category of having other motives because they don't recommend the fish he likes.

As to the assertion of misinformation, I am posting photos from a pond I rotenoned a little over a year ago. The owner had stocked hybrid bluegill a few years prior, and they had overpopulated and outbred such that the largest one I found when I sampled the pond measured 6" and weighed a whopping 2 oz. They averaged 4.75" and 1.25 oz. I'm also posting a couple post-rotenone photos so you can see that the average size of all of the bluegill in the pond was actually considerably smaller than my sample.

I sampled a pond in Brentwood last fall that also had hybrid bluegill in it. They had been in the pond a few years, and were well into outbreeding depression. They averaged 1.7 oz.

As to Georgia Giants tolerating low oxygen levels, that's a new one on me. I'd love to see the scientific data that supports that - pretty sure there is none.

Here's a link to a publication from the University of Georgia in which it is noted that ponds stocked with hybrid bluegill have to be periodically poisoned and re-stocked:

http://warnell.forestry.uga.edu/service/library/index.php3?docID=41&docHistory%5B%5D=1

Here's a link to a publication from the Texas chapter of the American Fisheries Society in which hybrid bluegill are listed as undesirable for pond stocking due to their inferior offspring and their tendency to overpopulate and stunt, which the publication notes will require renovation (poisoning) and re-stocking:

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/10/...mendations-.pdf

Here's a link to a publication from the South Carolina DNR in which Georgia Giants are mentioned by name - the publication notes that most pond owners in the state who have tried them have found them to "fall considerably short of expectations," and notes that "renovation will be required about every three years." Renovation in pond management means poisoning the whole pond:

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/fish/pdf/pondmanagement.pdf

The Florida Wildlife Commission also specifically names Georgia Giants as a species that should not be stocked in ponds:

http://myfwc.com/conservation/you-conserve/recreation/pond-management/

Anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear can see who the honest person without an agenda in this thread is, and who the person who is being fast and loose with the truth is.

[img:left][/url]small pond bluegill March 18 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img] [/img]

[img:left]small pond bluegill 4 March 18 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]small pond bluegill 3 March 18 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]small pond bluegill 2 March 18 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]rotenone 8 april 17 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]rotenone 10 april 17 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]rotenone 11 april 17 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]rotenone 17 april 17 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

[img:left]rotenone 23 april 17 by tnpondmanager, on Flickr[/img]

Like I said, the smart pond manager will use them appropriately and when they are properly used and managed they are a great fish, fun for everyone.

Mismanaged, or not managed at all and you will have problems. I have had them and their offspring for probably 10 years...absolutely no problems...and hours and hours of family fun.

They make an ideal pond for teaching fly fishing. They are very aggressive, much more so than regular 'gills, and they never get hook shy.

They are not the same as hybrid bluegills and lumping them into that group is a mistake. Just about any fish will overpopulate and stunt if not managed properly...one of the big plus of the GG is their low reproductive rate. Couple that with sufficient predators and no problems.

Mismanagement always leads to problems...and generally the mismanager points the finger at the fish rather than the manager. The fish simply does what it is programmed to do...and in the case of the GG, that program can lead to some great sport fishing for the entire family.

I already provided links to multiple publications written by degreed fisheries biologists that specifically disrecommend Georgia Giants, as opposed to hybrid bluegill in general; one of said publications notes poor performance reported by the majority of pond owners who had stocked them. I wonder if the person questioning all these biologists' competence has qualifications comparable to theirs, or is simply making baseless claims?

Georgia Giants no more have a low reproductive rate than do any other hybrid bluegill - I have worked with more than one pond in which they had been stocked by the pond owner. The pond I allude to in an earlier post in this thread as the very worst one I ever tried to grow big bluegill in, was one in which Georgia Giants had only been stocked for less than two years when I came along; they had been stocked in very low numbers, 400 in a four-acre pond, and they had been stocked with a high number of channel catfish, a fish commonly recommended by biologists who recommend hybrid bluegill as a fish to stock in conjunction with them - 1200 channel catfish. And yet the Giants had already overpopulated such that they averaged about 3" when I took over. So that particular pond was anything but "mismanaged" - it had an extremely high number of predators that should have controlled this fish that supposedly has a low reproductive rate, and yet less than two years after they were stocked they had already overpopulated, and the genes were already garbage.

There is no fish that never gets hook-shy. Hybrids in general, whether it be hybrid bluegill or hybrid stripers, are known for being more aggressive and slower to learn avoidance of angling presentations, but even hybrids learn. Here again, claims are being made that have already been disproven both in the scientific community and among private pond owners.

Claims are being made that are absolutely true in my pond...and beyond dispute. I have documented my results in a direct comparison test against copper nose bluegills and native bluegills in separate ponds.

I tested "aggressiveness", "growth rates" and "sustainability". I documented the results in pictures and data sheets monthly for about 1 year.

I found that most all of the problems I have read about on the 'net(mostly by competitors) are because of mismanagement and/or misapplication of the fish. Of course, it will not do well in a bass pond...for several reasons most important of which is its low reproduction rate. Only a fool for a pond manager would try that.

Properly stocked by a smart pond manager, it is a wonderful sport fish that fulfills a specific need in the market...in spite of competitors who try their best to discredit anyone who grows them and enjoys them. I love 'em...and have a huge distrust of pond managers who make blanket statements about the fish. Not everyone will manage them properly, and you shouldn't stock them if you don't intend to manage them.

Managed properly, they are great pond fish and tons of fun...and isn't that what most of us want from our ponds?

For what I am reading in both "TN Pond Manager" and "Meadowlarks" post is the common denominator that no matter what is stocked in a water body it has to be managed in order for it to be a healthy water body. I can also see the Pros and Cons of the Georgia Giants. If either one of you "TN Pond Manager" or "Meadowlark" can give me your professional view on a Redear/Bluegill hatchery. I have caught these fish in a lot of public water bodies and they are of nice size and fight hard. I was wondering if they could be made/hatched in a controlled environment and later stocked in public water bodies. I don't know what it takes for a specie of fish to be stocked in a public water body. I did speak with a Parks and Wildlife biologist who told me that the sunfish seem to inner mix more than any other specie of fish. That was just his opinion.


Side Note: I am learning a lot from the both of you. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.

Thanks "TN Pond Manager" and "Meadowlark" for your replies. Both of you gentleman are truly professional experts in the field of pond and fish management. Your facts and opinions are highly respected and I personally have learned a ton of information reading your inputs. You guys really take pride in your businesses and it shows in a very good way. Again thanks for the inputs. Keep em coming.




Side Note: I also wonder why more OFFICIAL studies are not published on sunfish production. I also wonder if a Redear/Bluegill mix can be produced,hatched,raised,and put into both private and public water bodies. As mentioned already both the Redear and Bluegill are breeding in the wild already. Wonder under controlled conditions if a better fish could be produced. Taking the biggest of the sunfish family (excluding the LMB)the Redear and breeding it with the more aggressive Bluegill seems to me you would have one heck of a fish. Oh well easier said than done. I guess I will keep catching what ever bites my bait.

Ad hominem a good argument does not make. I'm still waiting for this person to address the fact that it was not fish sellers I referenced who recommended against Georgia Giants - I didn't link to one single fish hatchery, or anyone whatsoever who sells fish or pond services. None of the top hatcheries in the South, including Texas, sell hybrid bluegill, and it would have been easy to link to pages on their websites noting why they don't; for example, neither one of the hatcheries that the person arguing with me bought his bass from, sell hybrid bluegill, only coppernose; considerable praise was heaped upon both of these hatcheries by this person for their exceptional largemouth - but somehow we are to believe they know nothing about bluegill. I intentionally limited my sources to unbiased biologists who have no financial interest in whether or not Georgia Giants or some other sunfish is stocked in ponds. And yet this other person in this thread continues to pretend as though my sources are all fish sellers - it's simply dishonest.

I have been selling fish for six years now, and as of today 99% of the fish I have sold were ones I bought wholesale from hatcheries and then delivered to my customers, just as nearly all pond management companies do. I could just as easily buy Georgia Giants and sell them as other bluegill, but I don't because of what I've read from many unbiased, biologist sources, and most of all because of what I've experienced firsthand both with them and hybrid bluegill in general.

As to the contention that this person's claims are beyond dispute - just saying it does not make it true. I have read every word on your website documenting your studies on Georgia Giants. The only mention you make of their reproductive rate is to note that the hybrid striped bass you had stocked as the initial predator for them were not controlling the Georgia Giants' offspring - this is the only mention made of their reproductive rate, and it completely contradicts what you write above.

You certainly make no mention whatsoever of GGs having a tolerance for low oxygen levels. The study on the website does not have so much as one oxygen reading. Bluegill, hybrid or otherwise, are not known for having tolerance for low DO. There are indeed freshwater fish that have such tolerance, among them gambusia minnows and tilapia; but bluegill most certainly do not.

As to your study, as far as I can tell it was not peer reviewed by anyone, biologist or otherwise. And your methods are somewhat less than scientific: your sample size each time you gathered information was five fish. There was no control whatsoever, no bother with creating identical conditions in both the ponds with GGs and the ones with coppernose - just casual observation, such as noting that coppernose "generally" don't reach ten inches until the third year. Perhaps they don't in mismanaged ponds; I've had them reach nine inches in one year, and eleven in two. None of the ponds in the study had anything remotely resembling ideal conditions for coppernose - the coppernose were in ponds being managed for trophy bass, and had significantly less desirable conditions for growing large bluegill than the GG pond. The ponds with coppernose being compared to in the GG study have gizzard shad, which are not present in the GG pond. That's like throwing a hundred deer into a ten-acre pen with a thousand goats and comparing their growth to ten deer all by themselves in another pen - about as unsound as "science" can possibly get.

There's nothing wrong with liking a fish in spite of its flaws. But when someone else merely tries to point out said flaws that are already widely acknowledged among fisheries biologists, simply out of a desire to save less informed pond owners from frustration, trying to belittle and discredit that person with claims one knows are specious, is more than a little dishonest.

Banker, bluegill-redear hybrids do indeed grow well and often bite better than redear. But their top-end size is smaller than redear, and the biggest issue with them is the same as with any hybrid that spawns, i.e. the outbreeding depression. Most states forbid the stocking of any sort of hybrid sunfish in public waters for this reason. Outbreeding happens simply when hybrids are stocked by themselves, but it is magnified and accelerated when they're stocked with pure-strain bluegill because they breed with the pure-strain bluegill and all the weakest genes from both parents get passed on, and very quickly you end up with a tremendous mess.

There has been a lot of discussion in recent years among fisheries biologists about the possibility of outbreeding depression even in F-1 largemouth, and that's not a hybrid in the truest sense since both parents are the same species, just different substrains. There is a lot more debate at this point about whether or not this is a serious issue, but there are some pretty high-profile biologists who feel strongly that outbreeding will occur.

Thank you sir for the information. Come to think of it I have not caught a Hybrid Redear/Bluegill mix bigger than the standard big Redear. I have caught two Redear that were a little over two pounds. The biggest Redear/Bluegill was about a pound and a quarter.




Again thanks for the information!

Excellent post and right on. Management is the key. Poor management almost always results in the blame being applied to the fish. You might recall the case of concluding that Tilapia are bad for big bluegill production based on one extremely poor management event example....the fish almost always gets blamed.

The key is to learn and recognize the programmed traits in the fish and then act accordingly. There is no such thing as a trash fish, IMO...only poor managers who place the fish in an unworkable environment.

I like red ear in the cross. The GG has it along with green sunfish and bluegill. As I mentioned, copper nose 'gills will also cross with the others and makes for an interesting fish. It is a bit strange looking, but grows out nice.

Attached is an example of the copper nose cross I accidentally created. It is an interesting fish. You can see obviously the copper nose and also the green sunfish traits and to a much lesser extent the red ear influence.

These have grown out very well...but I'm the first to admit, I don't have the skills or knowledge to produce these under controlled conditions...if I could I would sell them for sure and at a very high price, LOL.

Thank you Banker for your kind remarks...but I am not "professional", i.e. I do not offer for sale my fish related services, nor am I in any way driven by motives other than pure science. I am a scientist, actually rocket scientist by profession.

I love fish and strongly dislike those who make blanket condemnations of fish, often because of the profit motivation, and those who use them.

In my opinion, after some study, I do believe the GG is a cross between green sunfish, bluegill, and red ear using a back cross technique which to my knowledge has not been copied by others who have tried. The GG creator, although often an overzealous marketing zealot (e.g. hogzilla!!), showed me some genius in what he did with the GG's.

Few people notice but he strongly recommends the stocking of Gambusia aka mosquito fish with his GG's. Now, this isn't about mosquito control, although again the marketing gene kicks in here in the program again, but it is about providing the perfect food source for raising big sunfish.

Genius, pure genius. I have had Gambusia naturally for years in my ponds and never associated the two, i.e. Gambusia with big sunfish, until I read about the GG program. The light bulb went off and I recognized immediately why he recommends that. Big sunfish need those small minnows/bait fish to achieve maximum growth. Tilapia also works extremely well to provide a source of numerous small baitfish.

It is all about management, learning what traits the fish have programmed, and acting accordingly.

Weather you are a professional or not your knowledge is very much appreciated and very much respected.




Side Note: I have been reading up on the Peacock Bass. At one time they were supposed to be stocked in Florida waters. Don't know if they ever wore. Don't hear anything about em.

Thank you.

Yes, peacocks are now resident in the canals around Miami and Dade county. There are guides who will put you on them. I've wanted to try for them but just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. Peacocks are a great fish...and if you are in Miami area, you should give it a try.