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Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13876536 02/06/21 05:46 PM
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I trust TPWD.. They do some really good work.. If they agreed to spraying it's for good reason..

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Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: Big1Bass] #13876598 02/06/21 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Big1Bass
I trust TPWD.. They do some really good work.. If they agreed to spraying it's for good reason..



TPWD isn't the whole problem. The problem lies in the contract verbiage. These guys are paid to spray x amount of gallons of herbicide. If they are contracted at 1000 gallons and they spray the whole area and only use 700 they still have to spray that other 300 gallons. So they just dump it wherever.

That is the problem.


Originally Posted by lakeforkfisherman
I can backlash toilet paper.
Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13876672 02/06/21 07:51 PM
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That sounds like a waste of tax dollars. However goverment always spends money stupidly. If you don't need it spend it somewhere else. The years they need more spraying done it could be add to those years. Its kinda like when you see the state working on the highway, there will be 10 people there and 2 working with 8 leaned up trucks watching.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: Jarrett Latta] #13877106 02/07/21 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett Latta
Maybe it's time to form a group for Rayburn and do our own spraying. That way it can be monitored with oversight and better input from tpw/fisherman. We are in this to cut down on salvinia, not "spray as many areas as possible to get paid more".

I'm in. I cant stand these people just spraying widely around to use up whatever they are told. It needs to be done with some sense, and lately its lacking in that department big time.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: Littledog] #13878287 02/08/21 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Littledog
So nobody is gonna want to hear this . . . (and be assured that I did not vote this way)

The previous administration did many great, common sense things.
One of the things was to roll back a bunch of dumb stuff in the Clean Water Act.
However, when you do that, you sometimes cut your own legs out for the rare occasions when you need them.

The current administration hammer is more . . . lets just say open to big government and as such will likely re-instate those
provisions that allow citizens and environmental groups to take legal actions.

There are several environmental organizations who will benefit from this. (WaterKeeper Alliance, Warriors for Clean Water, etc. for example)

Texas anglers (Bass clubs, Tournament organizers, Weekend anglers, Kayak clubs, etc.) need to form a non-profit organization and seek out partnerships with these environmental groups. (believe it or not)
They'll need a war chest to fund the legal actions that will be needed.

. . . or we can just ignore it and be good little sheep.




We need to organize like the duck hunters have, and throw fund raising dinners and tournaments to fund the legal battle that needs to happen. BASS has done some good work, but I think it’s on a shoe strings budget. I think they do have some relationships and influence that could be useful. We just need to fund it. Let’s start replicating the DU banquets.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13878344 02/08/21 04:30 AM
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Corps used to have someone very involved with the spraying that did a good job of making sure they were treating the right areas. It may not be like that now. Anybody that thinks we should stop spraying Salvinia or that cold weather will keep it in check has no idea how it can take over a lake. SRA seems to have gone overboard on Toledo but I don’t know what the answer is. Several years ago you couldn’t get anywhere for the stuff. I used to think the Corp did a good job with rayburn but that may be changing.


Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13879199 02/08/21 10:40 PM
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Greetings all,

TPWD’s Inland Fisheries’ local fisheries management office and aquatic habitat enhancement office were made aware of the spraying by U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ (USACE) contractors at Monterrey boat ramp last Thursday. Todd Driscoll and I visited the area around midday on Thursday, via TPWD airboat. We did find salvinia mixed inside of the buck brush around the boat ramp. Since the buck brush is currently in leaf-off, no leaves, this herbicide treatment will not have any negative impact on the buck brush. Additionally, the use of Tribune (diquat dibromide), a contact herbicide, will only impact the area on which the herbicide lands. This is an EPA approved herbicide for use in aquatic environments (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld9UM000.pdf).

TPWD’s Inland Fisheries local fisheries management office and aquatic habitat enhancement office will meet this week with the USACE and the Lower Neches Valley Authority (LNVA) to discuss the current vegetation management plan and suggest modifications that would maximize fish habitat while still achieving adequate control of giant salvinia. We’ll post more about the plan after the meeting.

I’ll address a few things from previous posts. First, both USACE and TPWD herbicide application contractors are contracted by hours not gallons. Additionally, both USACE and TPWD can modify contracts as needed. We pulled contractors off both Caddo Lake and Toledo Bend for a couple of months after the big freeze in January 2018 because there were few plants to treat and what was there was dying. Unfortunately, not all of it died as we still have salvinia in both lakes today. The rest will address questions and concerns regarding the Aquatic Vegetation Management in Texas: A Guidance Document (https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066.pdf). This document is applicable to all public waters in the State of Texas. If the public has access to the water it is considered a public water, from the smallest of community fishing lakes to the largest reservoirs. Any vegetation management activities occurring on a public water body need to have an approved aquatic vegetation treatment proposal in place before conducting control activities. This includes all waters treated by TPWD or other government agencies. All herbicide-based proposals go through a two-step review process. The first review is conducted by TPWD’s fisheries management biologist overseeing the reservoir as well as the controlling authority for the water body. It is during this review that the proposal is approved, denied, or modified based on conformity with the state plan (the Guidance Document) and fisheries management objectives as well as reservoir operations conducted by the controlling authority. If approved, then the proposal is forwarded to individuals on the herbicide notification list (https://tpwd.texas.gov/landwater/water/environconcerns/nuisance_plants/notification_list.phtml). Herbicide activities may begin 14-days after these individuals are notified, typically by email now.

The state plan or Guidance Document was developed by TPWD in coordination with the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ, previously TNRCC) and the Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA). Regulations and rules pertaining to vegetation control in public waters can be found in Appendices A & B in the Guidance Document. TPWD is required to possess a pesticide discharge permit from the TCEQ and all TPWD employees that treat aquatic vegetation have a pesticide applicator’s license issued by the TDA. The contractors are required to be licensed by TDA as well.

Appendix A: https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066_AppendixA.pdf
Appendix B: https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066_AppendixB.pdf

As many of you have stated, it would be nice to have a biologist on each contracted spray boats but it’s not practical nor is it necessary all the time. TPWD’s Aquatic Habitat Enhancement team is comprised of six individuals and oversees the management of nuisance aquatic vegetation on over 50 public water bodies, covering the entire state. Many of the individuals on the contracted spray boats are conservation minded and are concerned about fisheries management, several of which have degrees in biology, ecology, and/or fisheries management.

I hope this answered a few questions or clarified a few things. As biologists, we understand how bad giant salvinia can be to a water body, but we also realize that eradication is impossible on many lakes and attempts to eradicate salvinia can destroy beneficial fish habitat and negatively impact fisheries. We appreciate your concerns on this matter, so please contact me if you have any further questions or feedback.

John Findeisen
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Inland Fisheries Division – Aquatic Habitat Enhancement Team Leader
900 CR 218
Brookeland, TX 75931
409-698-9121 ext 235
John.Findeisen@tpwd.texas.gov


John Findeisen
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Inland Fisheries Division - Aquatic Habitat Enhancement
900 CR 218
Brookeland, TX 75931
409.698.9121 ext. 235
Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13879518 02/09/21 01:37 AM
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John, how do we get hydrilla removed from the invasive species list?

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13879593 02/09/21 02:33 AM
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John, is it safe to assume all the land owners and owners of the park home rental places that are spraying/using sonar around Fork have state approval? Also who why do we see boats spraying around fork in areas with no salvinia, hyacinth or hydrilla? All the pond weed around alligator got hit late last summer and was mostly gone except for a few spots by end of oct.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: big mike] #13880012 02/09/21 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by big mike
John, how do we get hydrilla removed from the invasive species list?


i 2nd that

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: John Findeisen] #13880273 02/09/21 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by John Findeisen
Greetings all,

TPWD’s Inland Fisheries’ local fisheries management office and aquatic habitat enhancement office were made aware of the spraying by U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ (USACE) contractors at Monterrey boat ramp last Thursday. Todd Driscoll and I visited the area around midday on Thursday, via TPWD airboat. We did find salvinia mixed inside of the buck brush around the boat ramp. Since the buck brush is currently in leaf-off, no leaves, this herbicide treatment will not have any negative impact on the buck brush. Additionally, the use of Tribune (diquat dibromide), a contact herbicide, will only impact the area on which the herbicide lands. This is an EPA approved herbicide for use in aquatic environments (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld9UM000.pdf).

TPWD’s Inland Fisheries local fisheries management office and aquatic habitat enhancement office will meet this week with the USACE and the Lower Neches Valley Authority (LNVA) to discuss the current vegetation management plan and suggest modifications that would maximize fish habitat while still achieving adequate control of giant salvinia. We’ll post more about the plan after the meeting.

I’ll address a few things from previous posts. First, both USACE and TPWD herbicide application contractors are contracted by hours not gallons. Additionally, both USACE and TPWD can modify contracts as needed. We pulled contractors off both Caddo Lake and Toledo Bend for a couple of months after the big freeze in January 2018 because there were few plants to treat and what was there was dying. Unfortunately, not all of it died as we still have salvinia in both lakes today. The rest will address questions and concerns regarding the Aquatic Vegetation Management in Texas: A Guidance Document (https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066.pdf). This document is applicable to all public waters in the State of Texas. If the public has access to the water it is considered a public water, from the smallest of community fishing lakes to the largest reservoirs. Any vegetation management activities occurring on a public water body need to have an approved aquatic vegetation treatment proposal in place before conducting control activities. This includes all waters treated by TPWD or other government agencies. All herbicide-based proposals go through a two-step review process. The first review is conducted by TPWD’s fisheries management biologist overseeing the reservoir as well as the controlling authority for the water body. It is during this review that the proposal is approved, denied, or modified based on conformity with the state plan (the Guidance Document) and fisheries management objectives as well as reservoir operations conducted by the controlling authority. If approved, then the proposal is forwarded to individuals on the herbicide notification list (https://tpwd.texas.gov/landwater/water/environconcerns/nuisance_plants/notification_list.phtml). Herbicide activities may begin 14-days after these individuals are notified, typically by email now.

The state plan or Guidance Document was developed by TPWD in coordination with the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ, previously TNRCC) and the Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA). Regulations and rules pertaining to vegetation control in public waters can be found in Appendices A & B in the Guidance Document. TPWD is required to possess a pesticide discharge permit from the TCEQ and all TPWD employees that treat aquatic vegetation have a pesticide applicator’s license issued by the TDA. The contractors are required to be licensed by TDA as well.

Appendix A: https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066_AppendixA.pdf
Appendix B: https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_pl_t3200_1066_AppendixB.pdf

As many of you have stated, it would be nice to have a biologist on each contracted spray boats but it’s not practical nor is it necessary all the time. TPWD’s Aquatic Habitat Enhancement team is comprised of six individuals and oversees the management of nuisance aquatic vegetation on over 50 public water bodies, covering the entire state. Many of the individuals on the contracted spray boats are conservation minded and are concerned about fisheries management, several of which have degrees in biology, ecology, and/or fisheries management.

I hope this answered a few questions or clarified a few things. As biologists, we understand how bad giant salvinia can be to a water body, but we also realize that eradication is impossible on many lakes and attempts to eradicate salvinia can destroy beneficial fish habitat and negatively impact fisheries. We appreciate your concerns on this matter, so please contact me if you have any further questions or feedback.

John Findeisen
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Inland Fisheries Division – Aquatic Habitat Enhancement Team Leader
900 CR 218
Brookeland, TX 75931
409-698-9121 ext 235
John.Findeisen@tpwd.texas.gov


John, thanks for chiming in. I know you guys have a tough and often thankless job. Many of us do appreciate the work you guys do, but we don’t often express it. As I’m sure you can understand, we as anglers are hyper sensitive to the treatment of aquatic plants, that in the past have been detrimental to certain fisheries. Lake Austin being the most extreme example. The lake was ranked number 8 by Bassmaster in 2014 for the top 100 lakes in the nation and to my knowledge hasn’t been ranked since the grass has been eliminated. What can we as anglers do to encourage more mutually beneficial management of hydrilla and other “productive” aquatic plants, rather than the complete elimination?

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13880471 02/09/21 09:08 PM
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Good response flippin, I've been thinking of how to word an email to John. Not to jump all over them but to explain that based on observations of fishermen it doesnt appear the management of spraying is close to up to par. Maybe we are talking different chemicals but many times these sprays do much more damage than to what they touch. Maybe due to over application of them. The fact about them being notified about the spraying and not knowing before hand says a lot. I do appreciate John coming on here to make a response but flippin asked a great question, how can anglers encourage better management and not eradication.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: ETXfisher91] #13880522 02/09/21 09:48 PM
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I know we are just a bunch of dumb fisherman but here's what I've seen. Six years ago Indian Mounds area on Toledo Bend was full of hydrilla, haygrass, a little salvinia and tons of bass. My best day there resulted in dozens of fish caught with my best five going 34 pounds. Later that year we all saw the videos of them spraying for "just salvinia". In fact when people questioned the spraying we were told it only kills the floating grass on the surface. Go there now. There's no hydrilla to be found and very few bass to be caught. It's like cutting off your leg because your toe hurts. I'm sick of seeing these great fisheries ruined. I don't think it should be up to one biologist to make the decision to ruin a lake.


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Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: the skipper] #13880668 02/09/21 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by the skipper
Good response flippin, I've been thinking of how to word an email to John. Not to jump all over them but to explain that based on observations of fishermen it doesnt appear the management of spraying is close to up to par. Maybe we are talking different chemicals but many times these sprays do much more damage than to what they touch. Maybe due to over application of them. The fact about them being notified about the spraying and not knowing before hand says a lot. I do appreciate John coming on here to make a response but flippin asked a great question, how can anglers encourage better management and not eradication.


I will acknowledge that I've been one of the guys to jump all over them in the past. I'm very frustrated with their plan to stock 500 carp in Conroe over 10,000 sf of Hydrilla. Seems very excessive. Whether it is true or not, it feels like a substantial portion of our fishing license dollars are going to keeping our lakes 100% free of hydrilla, so some jackwagon doesn't foul the prop on his $150,000 wake boat, instead of ensuring that we have the best collection of fisheries in the world. Now I know that P&W stocks millions of fish each year, but if we had more and more productive habitat, they may not have to stock as frequently.

Ken Smith's interviews with Todd Driscoll made me realize that a lot of these biologists are anglers too. It's why they wanted to pursue their career path... So the question then becomes what do we as an angling community need to do to empower these guys do an incrementally better job at managing our fisheries. Do we need to do a better job of organizing and contacting our elected officials re: hydrilla not being classified as an invasive? Do we need to raise funds for a specific purpose? What can we do to keep grass in lakes like LBJ, at a reasonable level from a habitat standpoint, but ensure that it isn't choking off access to home owners' docks.

Re: Spraying on Rayburn [Re: flippinskeeter] #13880992 02/10/21 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by flippinskeeter
Originally Posted by the skipper
Good response flippin, I've been thinking of how to word an email to John. Not to jump all over them but to explain that based on observations of fishermen it doesnt appear the management of spraying is close to up to par. Maybe we are talking different chemicals but many times these sprays do much more damage than to what they touch. Maybe due to over application of them. The fact about them being notified about the spraying and not knowing before hand says a lot. I do appreciate John coming on here to make a response but flippin asked a great question, how can anglers encourage better management and not eradication.


I will acknowledge that I've been one of the guys to jump all over them in the past. I'm very frustrated with their plan to stock 500 carp in Conroe over 10,000 sf of Hydrilla. Seems very excessive. Whether it is true or not, it feels like a substantial portion of our fishing license dollars are going to keeping our lakes 100% free of hydrilla, so some jackwagon doesn't foul the prop on his $150,000 wake boat, instead of ensuring that we have the best collection of fisheries in the world. Now I know that P&W stocks millions of fish each year, but if we had more and more productive habitat, they may not have to stock as frequently.

Ken Smith's interviews with Todd Driscoll made me realize that a lot of these biologists are anglers too. It's why they wanted to pursue their career path... So the question then becomes what do we as an angling community need to do to empower these guys do an incrementally better job at managing our fisheries. Do we need to do a better job of organizing and contacting our elected officials re: hydrilla not being classified as an invasive? Do we need to raise funds for a specific purpose? What can we do to keep grass in lakes like LBJ, at a reasonable level from a habitat standpoint, but ensure that it isn't choking off access to home owners' docks.

I totally agree. I agree with Chris to, weve all seen what the spraying really does but I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say that the total eradication is most likely due to over spraying and not managing the applicators on the boat. I also agree that it's become an industry and politics have become involved. When those two things happen good intentions go by the wayside. It's time anglers take action and figure out a way to stop this stuff.

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