Non-game fish permit

My apologies if this topic has already been discussed in detail here.

A couple ways i could ask the question but I think I'll ask it like this:

Has anyone with a large bait tank (30 gallon+) - who are using bait to fish with and not sale, questioned about having a non-game fish permit while on the water?

Mine would be 42 gal if you filled it to the top. Soon as you punch it, and the bow rises 15 gallons of that are going to land on the deck so I consider it under 30 gal, not sure if TPWD would agree or not. I have not been approached by them since I built it. I though of drilling a overflow at 30 gal just in case.

I would think you would have to be selling. Call the Game Warden. He will have the right answer!

The way I read it: If your bait tank is 30 gallon plus, you need to have the permit. Guides are exempt.

I had a similar thought.

Might be easier to purchase the guide license. $210 insurance policy. For a bonus, take one person out for a half day trip for $300 once a year and it pays for itself.

Aw dude, now I have to measure my bait tank?

Nevermind, I haven't finished cleaning the hornet nests out of the battery box yet ...

Technically that will not work. Read the fine print and guides are exempt only if fishing with paid customers.

I have never been checked but I did get the permit in January of 2020. Only reason I got the permit was so that I knew I was 100% legal if I have to take a polygraph at the Possum Kingdom Catmasters tournament in October of 2020. Very few people know about the permit, its requirements, or how do go about getting it, including law enforcement.

Holzer, here is your answer (I think):

RULE §57.385 Special Provisions for the Collection, Possession, and Sale of Shad

"No person may collect and possess shad taken from public fresh water without a permit issued under this section UNLESS the person possesses a valid recreational fishing license issued by the department and the shad are not sold or exchanged for anything of value; and possessed in a container or containers that in the aggregate constitute 30 gallons or less in volume. The volume limit does not apply when shad are possessed on the waterbody from which the shad were taken."

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=T&app=9&p_dir=N&p_rloc=183732&p_tloc=&p_ploc=1&pg=8&p_tac=&ti=31&pt=2&ch=57&rl=377

Scenario A: You caught the shad on the lake you are fishing, and have not transported the shad away from the lake:

Since the volume limit does not apply when shad are possessed on the water body where they were taken, the criteria are:

(1) do you have valid recreational fishing license?, and
(2) are you selling or exchanging the shad for anything of value?

So a recreational fishermen could have a huge shad tank, and so long as you caught the shad on the same lake you're using them, no permit is needed.

Scenario B: You caught the shad at water body A and transported them to water body B for your personal use:

You need a permit if your tank is more than 30 gallons.

Yes, possessing any shad in ANY container larger than 30 gallons requires a permit. Dosent matter if it is in a bait tank, or a cooler larger than 30 gallons and your keeping them on ice.

Technically going the guide rout will not work. If you can find the fine print it states guides are exempt only if fishing with paying customers.

I have never been checked but I did get the permit in January of 2020. Only reason I got the permit was so that I knew I was 100% legal if I have to take a polygraph at the Possum Kingdom Catmasters tournament in October of 2020. Very few people know about the permit, its requirements, or how do go about getting it, including law enforcement.

If anyone would seriously like information on how to get the permit send me a PM. Im not on the forum frequently anymore so id rather just send you my number and explain all the details over the phone or in text.

Holzer,

I spoke with TPWD licensing a while back on this subject, and from what I was told...the 30 gallon volume relates to 30 gallons of actual shad...not shad in a bait tank. Fishermen catching bait in baitanks should not need this license. This is for folks catching large quantities of bait for resale I believe.

Wahooo!

Hmmmmm, maybe. I guess it could be interpreted in that way.
I don't recall reading 30 gallon "of bait fish". The literature I recall just said 30 gallon.

I think all in all, it boils down to something that may or may not be enforced for the recreational fisher.
Another interesting outlook would be from a previous post about having it for tournaments. Lots of people could be disqualified if the tournament allows the use of live bait and they have bait tanks larger than 30 gallons.

I do not believe the permit is required for tournament live bait fisherman, Here is a link to another resource from TPWD. And again, when I called TPWD licensing, they indicated I did not need the license. Think 30 gallons of actual shad by volume - dont count the water.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_t3200_1794_license_reqs_nongame.pdf

Macdaddarino,
I must be interpreting the information completely different than you are.
A cut and paste from the link you posted:


Who needs a permit to Possess or Sell Nongame Fish Taken from Public Fresh Waters?

• Any person who wants to catch for sale, sell or offer for sale nongame fish taken from public fresh water
of the state.
• Any person who is collecting shad for personal use and is harvesting large amounts (i.e., container or
containers that total 30 gallons or more in volume)


I'm just trying to figure out if a game warden on the water is going to interpret the rule as it is written above, Or in the manor as the person who told you that it is "30 gallons of shad".

Call the number at the bottom of the sheet like I did...and you will be told what I have been telling you. It is the volume of actual shad...not the volume of the container, not the volume of the container with water. If you leave the lake with over 30 gallons of actual shad, you need the permit.

That's alot of shad...I have trouble just catching 50 of those bastards

• Any person who is collecting shad for personal use and is harvesting large amounts (i.e., container or
containers that total 30 gallons or more in volume)

Pretty vague. 30 gallons in volume of what? Water or Shad?

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing with you.

Please re-read my response. I believe I'm correct in my analysis.

A 30 gallon container refers to the capacity of the container, not the quantity of shad. A 50 gallon drum with three shad in it is still above the 30 gallon threshold, assuming the other criteria are met.

So Uncle Zeek my understanding from the call I made to the number at the bottom of the flyer I posted, it is not the volume of the container. It is the actual physical volume of bait. Since three shad are well below 30 volumetric gallons of shad, no permit needed.

When I used to fish the Texas Striper Association with Holzer, the setup we ran was a 50 Gallon Tank Up Front and a 40 Gallon Tank in the rear. I explained this to the rep on the phone. No permit needed...since the actual shad volume is way less than 30 Gallons total. We would try to do 2 baits per gallon in the cooler months but not go over a bait per gallon of water in the warmer months, sometimes even less than that depending size of shad and how long we were holding the baits etc.

Well, if a case involving this statute hits the Texas courts, I'll post the results. The statute very clearly refers to the volume of the container, rather than the volume of shad.

In any event, the volume is irrelevant if one is fishing on the same lake you caught the shad.

Not to argure, we all have to be responsible for our actions if we don't follow the rules, even if we are honest in our mis-interpretation. However, I wanted to add some thoughts. Just something to think about.




Who needs a permit to Possess or Sell Nongame Fish Taken from Public Fresh Waters?

• Any person who wants to catch for sale, sell or offer for sale nongame fish taken from public fresh water
of the state.
• Any person who is collecting shad for personal use and is harvesting large amounts (i.e., container or
containers that total 30 gallons or more in volume)


I'm just trying to figure out if a game warden on the water is going to interpret the rule as it is written above, Or in the manor as the person who told you that it is "30 gallons of shad". [/quote]

[b][/b]
Please re-read my response. I believe I'm correct in my analysis.

A 30 gallon container refers to the capacity of the container, not the quantity of the shad.

Agree, 30 gallon is the capacity of the container or the sum of multiple containers. However, the subject is shad. So the container/containers would have to contain 30 gal of shad.



A 50 gallon drum with three shad in it is still above the 30 gallon threshold, assuming the other criteria are met.[/quote]

Do you believe 3 shad would constitute a large quantity of shad? There is a helpful chart a bit lower in the regulations which define a large quantity of shad as > 30 gallons. Note, there is no reference to "container" in the chart.

My point was that the statute is clearly referring to the volume of the container, rather than the volume of shad in the container. If you have a 50 gallon container, it's over the 30 gallon size and triggers the need for the permit, assuming the other conditions are met.

Again, there are no cases in Texas involving this law, so if one comes up, it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds.

I interpret the literature the same manner as Zeek.

Here's the language of the 2019 revision: If a person is collecting shad for personal use (for use as bait or stocking in private ponds) and is transporting the shad from the public water body in a container or containers that total 30 gallons or more in volume, they will be required to get a permit. Summary of Shad Rule Changes --Texas.gov.

OK, didn't want to post a response and then disappear. All's good. Tight lines.

Read the bottom "how much are you catching"

It does not state how big is your shad tank?

Hmm? On that note, I can see how Macdaddarino was told at the TPWD office that this rule was designed around the volume of shad caught.
But there is still alot of literature around the size of your bait tank and not the volume of harvested shad.
Well, should be interesting to see how the authorities interpret the rule if they choose to enforce this one.

Nice catch honey hole. Thanks for pointing that one out.

Not to be tiresome about it, but the language of the 2019 revision, as explained by TP&W, cannot be read to relate the term "volume" to the amount of shad, rather than the capacity of the containers. How would you measure 30 gallons of live shad without killing them? Is it supposed that game wardens will tote around 30 gallon containers to perform these measurements?

What’s up, Holzer? My tank is a 40 gal. Grayline. Had it for years. Before the TSA days. Lol. I get my bait at the lake, use my bait at the same lake and never worry about it. I do not feel I’m illegal and with the vagueness of the way the law is stated, a hundred dollar lawyer would have it dropped in a second.

Anyway, man it’s good to see you on the forum. Not much of us old timers post much anymore.