Keep 20 guide movement

I am not sure how many of you are on facebook but it looks like there is a big movement with guides only keeping 20 fish instead of 25 per person for trips. This is due to the increased fishing pressure on lakes around here and the negative impact it is and could have on the fishing. What is everyone's thoughts on this? I am all for it and commend the guides doing it and hope all follow along. Guess with time we will see who is really about conservation.

I really think it is a good idea on the hard fished lakes like Fork and Pines. They will catch fish but only put 20 under the knife.

With the pressure that Fork is getting I think it’s a good idea, especially with the size of fish that are coming out of that lake right now.

The limit laws should be changed if research can back it up. I am all for conservation and for keeping fisheries producing to healthy levels. I commend anglers and guides that decide to do this. However I think a guide should make their customers aware of their personal limits before booking the trip. Just my two cents.

If they are doing it on Pines and Fork December thru the end of February they are not allowed to return any crappie to the water. You have to keep all of them up to your limit, then stop catching them. Lots of fish come from deep water and can't get back down, this is the reason for the rules change in winter. I know the game wardens on Pines used to sit on top of the dam and use binoculars to catch folks releasing small crappie. No, I was not the one who got the ticket.

I hear you banker. From what I am seeing most are letting their customers know and if they want to cancel, they are refunding deposits.

Thanks. I kind of figured that this was already being done. Good to know first hand.

Live scope has changed the game. Limits were established when you couldnt see the fish. Its a harvest now.

Have only done 2 Crappie Guided trips, both on Lake Fork. Both times we ended up with 43 fish.

With the size of crappie in that Lake, 20;40 is more than enough fillets IMHO

I’d be all in on that. We don’t eat enough fish to need to limit every time. It’s a good thing too, because we don’t !

They’re talking starting March 1st. I think it’s a good thing. I wish Texas would go to MS limits!

I'm all for it when by myself I keep 8 that's one quart bag of filets.

Good idea to me. Fishing forums and Facebook have contributed to the less than usual results in the last few years. 20 is more than enough.

Many contributing factors IMO. I have seen what a year of record crappie fishermen and limit after limit will do to a small lake. Still plenty of fish but finding WAY more unders and 10-10.75" fish than the last 8-10 years. Still having a good time though still would like to experience LS a few times.

Good idea. It can't hurt. My boat is 11' and up and only keep 15. That's more than I like to clean.

That is great then. It was not stated in the post of only putting 20 under the knife. We still have the whole month of February to get thru though.

Kudos to the guides for being proactive to protect our sport. would like to see the science and biologists back this up even if they are behind the curve. what would happen if the price of livescope/live sonar is $99 in 5 or 10 years? i would like to see Texas building more reservoirs too!

btw - i've had a self imposed limit for years! involuntary limit!

Not a FB user so interested in the reasoning behind the issue.
Was any data/research presented to support the need for a reduction?
Resource being over fished by guides?
Trophy quality suffering?
Why 20 limit only for guides?

Been fishing for crappie a long time and have plenty of opinions. But not gonna stick my neck out and say a limit reduction is a move to support conservation. What's happening on Fork is not the same as what's happening on Navarro Mills or Richland Chambers.

I shoot for 15 , Livescope makes hacks like me into crappie anglers it's got to be impacting the fish populations. If TPW imposed a reduction it wouldn't bother me at all. I can only eat so much crappie in a sitting.

I would really just love to see them handle the excessive harvest by some of our newer members of the community

what's happening on Navarro Mills or Richland Chambers ?

I'd like to see the data to back up where this is hurting the fisheries. Not anecdotal data like "well we used to catch a lot more fish" or "we used to catch more big fish". That's more than likely just the result of the normal cycle of a lake and not due to angler pressure. Every biologist I have seen weigh in on the subject agree that anglers need to keep more fish. Not more than their limit. But they need more people keeping their limit to keep the populations in check. This is exactly why lakes like Fork and LOP have requirements that anglers keep EVERYTHING they catch up to 25 During December and January. Crappie are prolific reproducers. It would take every fisherman keeping their limit every time they went out to even make a dent in the population.

I think it’s a good idea to reduce it to 10; that way I can say I limited out more often!

Haven't fished either one in a couple yrs; but I doubt you will be able to find 20+ full time crappie guides fishing either lake. And I would guess the number of crappie fishermen on NM in a year is about equal to 6 weeks count on Fork in the spring. Just guessing of course, but I think most people would agree those two bodies of water differ greatly in a lot of aspects from Fork.

Personally, 20 per person is plenty. And I'm with the 15 stated above. But before I sound my trumpet like I have the answer, I'd like to see some research data to prove this is a move in the right direction. This might do more harm than good. Crappie fishing is more popular than ever and we all know more people are on the water. So logic would seem to indicate a reduction in limits is necessary. And if that's your belief, set a lower limit. From what I've read on this Forum over the yrs, most people here keep far less than a limit even when they are catching well.

it has to be great for guides too. 5 less fish per person to catch, 5 less per person to clean X 20 customers a week ( low ball ) 100 less to catch A week X 40 weeks a year. Thats 4000 a year per guide X how many guides per lake ??? It is a win win. lake retains fish and guide limits earlier.

Will that 20 per day also apply to the old guy out 4-5 times a year trying to feed his family some fish ?

Makes you think

We have self imposed limit 10 a day on Callender lake. But no fishing pressure like the public lakes

Conservation is a great thing... Kudos to the guides that are on board, however, there are also other things that "may" need to be considered to manage conservation. The number of guides on one lake for one species "may" need to be factored in. Perhaps a lottery system like they have for hunting public land to control numbers.
I too would be interested in knowing the facts of how this will be a good thing or a bad thing for our sport of Crappie fishing.
Seems to be a fair start and certainly a good conversation starter.

Tilt man says “ I would really just love to see them handle the excessive harvest by some of our newer members of the community”
I have a couple of questions. Who is ‘them’? And who in this community is taking excessive harvest? I’ve only seen post with people and their legal limit. The state biologist are going to be the ones with the final say in the matter. I would personally prefer they imposed some sort of slot limit and cut down on the larger fish being depleted. I’m no biologist but the slot for bass seems to work in certain situations. I have to believe that with all the hype and complaining going on over Livescope that it is on the states radar. And with Humminbird and Lowrance jumping in to the mix, it’s only gonna hype it up more.

I think that we should wait for numbers, but I can't get behind nerfing the limits for everyone, when "everyone" isn't the problem.

Well......there are folks that tend to eat everything that swims , when I say new members of our community I mean some people that may or may not come from a land that has virtually no game regulations so when they come here in some cases even buying a license doesn’t even come to mind let alone measuring or counting catch. And since game warden siting on some lakes are scarce they go unchecked. I have even seen them netting and not throwing a single thing back.

The same hype went on when Side Image and Down Image was introduced. Lake Fork and LOP get fished hard yet big, big fish and limits keep getting caught, and Livescope has been on boats for two-plus years now. The Fork will have I believe four big crappie events on it come March. She will be tired but still produce limits. I'm no rocket scientist but I do know that TP&W knows a thing or two. I like the movement that the group of guides has made and will hopefully bring about resolve to the everlasting question with Live Sonar depleting our fisheries. If there is one thing depleting our fisheries it is not Sonar. Does it have an effect, I'm not saying it doesn't.

Like the pro-active movement, but would like to see the numbers and how it really is affecting the population of the lake, I know Oklahoma you can keep 37 any size, and they have great fishery. Hugo has been great for years and they make meat loads all the time. Just be interesting to see what the numbers come back and say. Now and then again in about 2-3 years to see what if any the change from guides will are going to have on the lake.

Guide consensus is a great start with reference to # of fish kept per client. Most clients can't fish or don't know how to fish and the deductive reasoning curve says the limit of fish taken goes freezer burned in short order. Personal philosophy from said idea !!

First let me say, the guides willing to put their neck out there and support this is awesome. Secondly, I do believe data is important. And lastly, I think there needs to be an agreement on what the goal is and work towards that goal. For example, my goal would be that when I went out I had a tremendous chance at catching plenty of 2-pound crappies regardless of the lake. So how do we get that done? Slot limit? Change the bag limit? ect. Whatever it would take to get that type of fishery is what I would sign up for. Blessings to all. B

The issue with the data is that TPWD does not have the funding, time or concern to conduct more surveys. Fork hasn't been sampled since 2017. Maybe now they will, only time will tell.

This is an old school mentality that a lot still have. I think there is alot we don't know about. One thing to remember is that when these limits were set, there wasn't anything close to the technology that we have now so truthfully, they just had to pick a decent number so that no one person could fill the back of their truck up with fish. Back then with the limits in place and minimal technology, was anyone at TPWD really concerned with crappie population being depleted, probably not. I would love to see a study and see what it says. With that being said, I think studies on these fish with electro fishing and netting, etc.. are not fully accurate. Crappie are schooling fish and if you aren't looking in the right place at the right time of year, then those studies are not fully showing the fish population. Guides are chasing and looking at crappie daily and know the average sizes of fish they see and catch so I really think if guides say they are noticing a decline, I trust them more than TPWD honestly.

Fork and pines have those rules because of the depth the fish are caught, they would die anyway. Not because they need to control the population.

And I agree with the guides being proactive and taking steps to protect the resource. Kudos to them for thinking about the future of our fisheries.

Guides started the talk about size limits on Tawak catfish to protect the trophy fishery. They got TPW involved and provided data to TPW. So maybe crappie fishermen can get TPW more interested if "we" let them know we want this fishery studied and resource sustained. The guides and tournament fishermen can supply a wealth of data without TPW having to spend much money. Where do we start?

I don't want to hijack Anthony's post so if we need to start a new one, I'll do that. Your call Anthony.

Im for wildlife conservation and all, support the guides that want to limit their keep. Just trying to put #s down. Does anybody know how many crappie are in Lake Fork as of the last time it was surveyed? If im reading right, the last survey was 2017?

pretty good point

"Guides are chasing and looking at crappie daily and know the average sizes of fish they see and catch so I really think if guides say they are noticing a decline, I trust them more than TPWD honestly"

I signed up for this as soon as Jerry Hancock called me with the idea. Since then, the amount of griping has actually surprised me a bit, although most folks seem to like idea.

Here’s why I’m all for it, and why I’ll be practicing the conservation effort on both of our boats:

1) limits aren’t as easy to come by as they used to be, and neither are big fish.

2) worse case scenario, other anglers will catch more fish

3) 40 keepers for two people on a half day trip is a really strong day on the water

4) a lot of fish we clean get wasted. I can’t tell you how many times a year I hear “we still have fish from last year’s trip”.

5) most of the people who have voiced their negative opinion with this movement don’t book with us (guides) anyways

6) our state biologists aren’t on the water as much as professional fishermen

7) there are still plenty of REALLY good guides who won’t practice the keep 20 movement

8) it wasn’t supposed to be possible for ducks and buffalos to be hunted to near extinction

9) everyone is still free to choose as to whether or not they want to keep a limit on their own boat, so with guides throwing back fish, it should only make their chances better right??



Looking at the fighting online, it seems like a lot of people haven’t gone fishing in awhile.

Ken, no worries at all. You are not hijacking anything. I wanted this to be an open conversation

will the guide prices go down if the fish keeping goes down,...??

Seems that lowering it to 15 would serve a better purpose. Guides do take ALOT of every fish out of the lakes each year, just look at the pics they post. Dont limit it to guides though, make it for everyone. Technology has changed getting everyone on a more level playing field. 15 fish a day is plenty for anyone to have of any species of fish.

What about those that only get to fish a few times a year? I feel like for them, keeping a limit isn't an issue

I'm one of those guides that has joined this. This came after much discussion among the guides specifically on Fork and Pines. Which are the two lakes that get absolutely blasted

I agree with everything Lane said and will add a few more points.

Just because we reach the 20, 40, or 60 fish threshold, does not mean we will stop fishing. When I have just a single customer (which isn't often) and if they catch their limit fast (which isn't often haha) we head off to the catfish hole, or go snatch some shell crackers. No one will be shorted on my boat or any others that I know of for time on the water.

Like Lane said, a 40 fish day is a good day!!

We cant wait on bureaucracy to keep up with technology. It never has yet!

If in the future we are proven wrong, and I hope we are, then great!

Tight lines TFF

7 walleyes are you can keep up north,...I think trout is 5 around here,...redfish are 3 a day,...and bass are 5 unders at fork...

25 does seem like a lot !

And all of those limits were because of research and data. As G3 says, when the bureaucracy catches up, most likely it will change. Until then everyone needs to do for themselves what they think is right and leave others to do what they think is right. As long as you follow the regulations I don’t have a say in what anyone does. The guides most likely will be proven right because of technology. And if they are proven wrong then that is great for the fishery and us. JMO.
Tight Lines and Blessings

I personally don't like it.
Just added another reason why I don't hire guides.
This is why we pay the TP&W to set the rules and regulations of fish limits.
I don't need Tom down the street to tell me how many fish I can keep.
I don't need Peter from up the hill telling me how many fish I can keep.
I may just be in the minority here and I am fine with it.

Ranger1, if you don’t hire guides then I don’t see why you’re even bothering yourself with this discussion. Not one single guide has suggested the recreational sector should follow suit, as this is strictly a voluntary movement by guys who fish for a living and have seen an impact on our fisheries.

It is a open forum and I gave my 2 cents. Nothing more

I don't know why it would? You are not paying for a limit. You are paying for knowledge, experience, a few fish to put on the table, and a memory. There is just as much value remaining at the end of the day despite 5 fewer fish being brought home.

I've been crappie fishing for a long time, and caught my share, but, I haven't kept a crappie in almost five years, releasing everything I catch. But that's not because I think a lake like Fork will be fished out. But, and I want to make this clear...I AM NEIHER FOR NOR AGAINST KEEPING 25 PER PERSON, OR REDUCING IT TO SOME OTHER NUMBER. But consider this, and the numbers are purely hypothetical.....

1. Let's say......that Fork has one million crappie in it (of course there are many millions)
2. 500,000 are females
3. Each female produces 50,000 eggs per year
4. 10% of those 50,000 eggs (5,000) are lucky enough to actually become fish
5. So 5,000 offspring x 500,000 females = 2,500,000,000 new fish are introduced into the lake each year, and half are eaten or die in some way, leaving 1,250,000,000

Depleting a lake the size of Fork would be theoretically impossible, be they large or small crappie.

And remember before you crawl up my leg....I'm neither for nor against any limit size, as I never keep one crappie

I'm just a dumb old Okie and I've never been on this forum but I really enjoy the discussions on it. That being said y'all are where we was on Texhoma years ago, I went out with guides 2/5 time a year & someone in our group always hung a 15/22 lb fish on our trip, now you can load boat with a lot fish but no giants of course there wasn't 100/300 guides on lake with $10,000 electronics. Don't lower limits on fish but on guides

HHmmmm,.......thats a thought.

Thats kinda what i was going for but didnt know the #s. I would like somebody from TPWD chime in on this that puts #s down.

Boy I sure wish my live scope and all my other ff gadgets would make them
bite every time I go out. Maybe that invention is coming soon. JS. FYI they
are starting to stage up in the creeks find your local creeks start on the north side
soon.

Leave it the way it is crappie are good spawners so 5 fish won't make much difference

These regulations are self imposed by the guides for the guides. It does not effect anyone else. They fish the lakes every day and expected to produce a limit each trip. They catch more fish per year than most of us catch in 5 years. Recreational fisherman are lucky to fish once a week and I suspect 90% of the time they do not catch a limit. They are not asking recreational anglers to follow their lead. The only group who should have any gripe at all is those who hire guides. If they don't like the lower limit they simply need to find another guide. The action of the guides do not effect me one bit so why should I bitch about it. I have no problem with them trying to protect their lively hood. I benefit from there actions.

Well said.

Actually, it does effect everyone else. If they have any impact on any fishery, rather good or bad, it effects everyone who fishes that fishery.

Sure, they think it will have a positive impact. And great if it does. But what if it has a negative impact?

EDIT: I really think it will have zero noticeable impact.

PRESSURE does more to change the way a lake fishes than anything short of tpw grass killing monkeys....just PRESSURE.....

All joking aside 20 fish is plenty I think and I think it would help to create more quality fish in the lakes. Heck sometimes I only keep 10 fish so for a guide to set the limit to 20 that’s plenty. Good luck and let’s go get em because it’s getting close to that time.

Hey Screw This
If I am paying my good money for a guide to help me catch as many fish as the law allows so I can enjoy the fish fries for family and friends and he wants to back off the number SCREW HIM!

Well the pressure is on the guide to Keep UP with catching fish. That is the way it should be!! If it was easy they would have kids doing it!

I bet you don’t even use a guide often or never have.

My thoughts are similar. Unfortunately I had to sell my boat for financial reasons. Ohhhhhhh do I miss being out there catching crappie. Been without it for 2 years now. My wife and I REALLY miss eating the crappie I brought home. We would have crappie meals in some sort or fashion at least 3 times a week. I am a meat fisherman. When I’d go out I would keep around 10 to 15, knowing I’d be going out in another week. Or in my case when the wind wasn’t blowing too badly. Ohhhh the meals my wife would cook. And so I’ve been pondering lately on getting a guide for me and my wife so we could come home with 50 fish that would last us a while. But doggone it if I want to pay $350 + Tip and bring home 40 fish. And yes, I know a limit isn’t always guaranteed, but I’m making a point for the thread here. When I deer hunt, I’m hunting for meat, Not Horns. When I crappie fish I’m fishing for meat, not Knowledge, Experience, or Memories. So, as a boat owner, I was very responsible not to catch the limit, just cause I could. But now that I don’t have ANY way of getting out there to fish, I might like to pay a guide to go out and catch as many as the limit allows. We haven’t had crappie for two years. Wow, I would love to get back out there.

As far as the guides go. . . Bully on them for being pro-active! I just would want the guide I hire to help me catch the limit.

That’s a little disrespectful don’t you think after re reading it. I would look myself in the mirror and ask myself why would I say that. I’ve been in the trenches in their boats and learned more than I could imagine and if they want to go 20 that’s a respectable number and plenty of fish means more for you when you come along in your boat silly. Sir I honestly don’t think you know anything about what the guides go through or even hired one. It’s kinda like the guy that grips about the president elected but didn’t vote. JS

Here is a radical idea, How about the guides don’t fish? Just guide ?
I have been on some guided inshore fishing trips where I felt like I was just paying the guide to fish.
They were more interested in fishing than teaching or helping the client.

My favorite captain in Key West wouldn’t fish at all, but he would work his butt off to make sure you caught fish.


Mo

[quote=Mo]Here is a radical idea, How about the guides don’t fish? Just guide ?
I have been on some guided inshore fishing trips where I felt like I was just paying the guide to fish.
They were more interested in fishing than teaching or helping the client.

My favorite captain in Key West wouldn’t fish at all, but he would work his butt off to make sure you caught fish.


They work their [censored] off at least the ones I’ve used. Some was just instructional we didn’t catch a limit
but he taught me a lot and wasn’t going to charge me full price and there was one point where he said we can turn in and re book. At the end of the day had a blast showed me ins and outs of the electronics etc. Guides
are under rated. Again 20 is plenty I think and I’m going to start doing the same. JS

I don't understand why y'all are bitching if you don't like the 20 fish the guide has put on his boat don't go with him it's his boat he has the right to do what he wants. Quit being so greedy what's 5 fish good grief fish for the fun of fishing and the fellowship you have fishing with a stranger and the memories you make while doing so life is to short to bitch about 5 fish

Well Jigmaster that would be a bet you would lose! And I like to tip well for the ones who do a Great job

Well folks we now see who’s hoarding all the fish now. Lol
Again sir your comments was very disrespectful in my opinion and
Honestly guides don’t care for your type on their boats from my experience.

Well if you are a guide I will make damn sure I never use your service.

I do not see that good but I do see a whole lot of sand bass so hey why you griping about crappie

Olefisher, This is about crappie. Sandbass are not really the concern

There a a good number of crappie in our trips also. The breed of fish does not change my stance that if I hire a guide he is working for me to catch as many fish as the law allows,

Greed greed greed it's all about me me me me

Yeah why are you on the crappie forum sir. ?

There is nothing wrong with the







'guide
' just keeping 20. It will not stop me from keeping my 25 !!!!!!

Sir honestly you are reminding me of my next door neighbor with all do respect. He grips about the president elected but doesn’t even vote. That’s just my opinion. JS