Kayak definition

I'm not a kayaker and the draw to compete is kind of behind me, but I'm curious about something. If you allow trolling motors in a kayak tournament, what separates a kayak from a bassbuster type boat. Kayaks are starting to have raised seats and the distinction between them (in my mind) is becoming smaller. So what would keep a guy in a boat like mine from competing?

Here are pics as an example.... The second shows how the trolling motors are tucked up in the hull. It can draft as shallow as a kayak but probably isn't as fast. Would a guy in one of these who showed up with a paddle be considered eligible?

(And that's the creator of the boat, not me)

I don't see why not and it looks like it would be pretty fast. When some of the new and improved fishing yaks came out recently I joked that I was holding out for the 18' version with a fishing deck and live wells. Yes that line is starting to blurr

That's what I'm thinking. This thing is 10 foot long. So are some kayaks. It's roto molded and constructed,like a kayak. It has raised seats as some kayaks now offer. If you just read the rules of a tournament I would think someone might have a hard time saying this doesn't qualify.

And by the way, I have learned tons of rigging ideas from you guys here and most of the things I have planned for this boat have come right from these pages.

"human powered" is the difference. Yes manufacturers are making "kayaks" (they're not) with trolling motors. I doubt they will ever be accepted in most major kayak tournaments. Your boat is sweet but it is a john boat, if you want to paddle it, then game on

The key is "human powered!"
If there is a kayak tournament that allowed trolling motors, and I could see this a possibility then they would have to allow a pond boat and any boat as long as it was powered only with the trolling motor.
In that scenerio even the bass boat guys could fish, just don't start up the big motor.
Here is an excellent write up by one of our own on the subject!
http://www.paynespaddlefish.com/2014/09/should-trolling-motors-be-allowed-in.html

Well the kayak tournament on Fork posted on this page brought this to mind. In it they said they allow trolling motor and pedal powered kayaks.


Rather than derail that thread I thought I'd make a new post. The human powered definition makes sense but once you guys allow torqueedos or other trolling motors it opens up a lot of gray area I think.

I guess that is where freedom of choice comes in. If you go into a tournament knowing this and plop down your entry fee, then you live with the results is the way I see it.

If one thinks a pedal "kayak" does not have an advantage over a paddled kayak then you are just kidding yourself...try them both and you'll see. Why do most kayak tourney anglers opt for the pedal boat? because there is an advantage. Now strap a TM to a $500 kayak and that advantage goes away...doesn't set well with the crowd that just dropped 3-4K on a small plastic boat would it? I agree with Jimbo that one should read the rules and make thier own personal choices.
I certainly hope tourney directors of all these Kayak fishing tourney events can make better choices that even the field of play instead of widening it. IMHO, a strong kayak fishing event should have catagories of varying skill, equiptment used, and age/experience of the competitor. Pre fish times should end several days prior to the start of a tournament. Also, the current CPR system is great for inexpensive , fun tourneys but has no business being used in tourneys that pay any significant amount of money. There is just too many flaws such as stashing fish, re-catching fish for photos, photo chopping, etc, etc.

Every kayak or kayak hybrid has it's advantages and drawbacks. There is no need to list them all, the line seems to firmly be drawn in the sand at Human Powered. If Slayers and Hobies held that much of an advantage over every other kayak that's all you'd see winning events. I think some of the top kayak anglers in the state use paddle yaks (Steve G, Bobby L, Brandon C, Guillermo G)

Winning tournaments and doing well comes down to an anglers abilities, whit, instincts, game-plan when it's a human powered event.

Once you allow electric power it's just a john boat tournament

Matt your list of great paddle kayak fishermen is a good one. I think everyone knows that if those guys had pedal power they'd be even more dominant. The question is, would the guys who've only done well with a pedal drive be able to duplicate that success in a paddle yak? Not trying to start a brouhaha but well we've never really seen that now have we ;-)?

And responding to the OP... I just can't see how you're gonna disqualify that little bassbuster with a TM if you're allowing, say, a nucanoe with a TM...

Here's the thing though. If someone wins that fork tourney in a paddle yak then all bets are off I guess. I mean the pedal guys have been citing the examples of Steve G, Guillermo G, and Brandon C as proof that pedal power isn't a distinct advantage. Maybe the TM guys will have someone they can point to themselves?;-)

Hooked on Kayaks, interested in hearing your ideas for something other then CPR tourneys. Not to many other options that I could think of.

Pretty sure Steve and Bobby are pro staff on brands that don't have pedal kayaks. Besides, those 2 could catch fish standing on a log.

For kayak fishing tourneys to grow into any kind of big money/spectator sport, live weigh-in must be done, either at the end game or on the water. Use of catch boats or contestants paired with a judges using verified scales may work. With advent of drones, something good may happen there. I was always in favor of an immediate upload of photos using cell phone cameras so a leader board could be used thus increasing spectator interest.
Currently, I would recommend displaying the time caught in the photos is something that should be done immediately in all CPR tourneys as a secondary means of ID. Also, writing on the hand should be disallowed...some sort of special ID system should be used that is issued at the captains meeting on the day of the event....something dang near impossible to photoshop

Speaking of spectator sport!
I used to fish club bass tournaments years back and it was exciting to see guys bring in their catch and a lot of people gathered around (even non members) to watch.
I hung around (didn't participate) a kayak tournament weighin (check in) and it was the most boring thing I ever witnessed, and I didn't even stick around to watch who won.
The only folks getting a thrill from it would be the contestants and even then, those would only be the leaders.

I don't know how you would possibly keep 3-5 fish alive on a kayak? Guys in boats with aerators specially designed for this have trouble, and you'd like to implement it into kayak tournaments? I personally think live weigh-ins are just as boring. Anyone who has ever seen 100s of floating bass after a PB tournament like I have would think this is damn near impossible. If that is the style tournament some guys want, then go fish a PB trail, not a kayak tournament.

I believe the system isn't broke, I don't believe cheating is rampant. I'm all for evolving the sport for the better but at a certain point I think it's just too much for a kayak formatted event.

What does Webster say? http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Kayak

This subject has been tossed around more than once. I personally think the purist consider a true kayak to only be human paddle powered. Others say that a kayak can be powered by other means like motors, peddles, sail, etc etc. When $Money$ is on the line, I think the classes should all b seperated out. If you want to paddle your bass boat in a paddle only tourney, then, more power to ya

These fishing platforms we generically label "kayaks" have evolved so much i call them yaks because most of them only resemble the original true kayaks.

Curious as where you saw 100s of dead floating bass after a bass tournament? I have fished countless tournaments and ran more than my fair share and have yet to see more than a handful of fish that didn't make it after a large format event. Not trying to derail the thread, just haven't heard of immediate mortality rates that high.

I've seen it on Amistad and Kentucky lake, Robbie Milam witnessed this as well

The current CPR system is broke for the obvious reasons and not to be trusted for any tourney that is not purely for fun. I would know, I created the system for KATS many moons ago and have seen hundreds if not thousands of submitted photos.

Said the paddler from his john boat.

All kidding aside, I now believe letting electrics into the game is where we are headed. For the same money folks spend on pedal craft they can get electrics, for the about same amount of money you have an advantage over pedal craft. For the same amount of money you will be more efficient and your crotch won't be sweating.

Look at the real bass pros and what they are going through with sponsorship, its all about the money and what it cost to be out there. In our game, with the right trailer, we can get four guys traveling across the country for not much more than the price of one. Everything else is just fishing.

As far as weigh ins, they are all boring for most folks. I say less focus on live weigh in, just give out the prize and get on with the dancing girls. Give the tv audience what they really want to see. Fishing and hot babes.


No one goes to the pool party to swim.

Kentucky Lake outside of Paris Landing. Both the Triton Owners tournament and Rayovac were fishing the same weekend we were there. The last day of the tournament Matt and I went down to that part of the lake and they were everywhere.

Displaying time caught is great idea!

As far as growing into a great spectator event, there needs to be a reason other than fishing going on at the "weigh in site" to attract crowds who have no interest in fishing. Maybe something like an art show, flea market, barbeque, pool party all rolled into one. You have to get the whole city, lake, and surrounding area involved. Made for tv.

The only reason I would want or have a pedal yak was if I fish exclusively in big water. I would feel better in one of those than what the OP has especially in a rough water kick up. Like I said, the lines are blurring in what a kayak is or isn't. I think it should be broken into groups i.e.paddle yaks in one and pedal in another and as far as TM power is concerned then the bassbuster crowd start their own thing and such powered yaks enter that one.

The most important thing I have taken from this discussion is that.....LOUIS GOES TO SOME KICK A$$ POOL PARTIES!!!

Story of guy winning bass boat tournament from kayak. Or I guess his Hobie PA.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/jan/24/outdoors-tony-souza-bay-bass/

If I were fishing tournaments and was serious about winning, I'd fish out of a pedal Yak.
In the mean time I think I'll start Fish-N with Louis!

I maybe just plain oblivious but I believe that the kayak community as a whole is one of the most honest groups out there, going to be cheaters in everything and eventually they get caught. As far as paddle, peddle or electric I fish from a paddle kayak and won a few tournaments last year against some great people in paddle and peddle kayaks my honest opinion is the guys that have peddle kayaks have the ability to cover more water BUT in doing so I think they miss the opportunity to cover areas more efficiently. My paddle kayak makes me chose an area that I have to work due to time constraints of a tournament I don't want to be 4 or 5 miles across a lake trying to make it back to weigh in on time . I may very well be wrong here but I believe that with trolling motors or even peddle power you get the run and gun mentality sometimes and it may cause you to miss some great opportunities . Would I like to have a peddle kayak with the nice seat to fish out of oh heck yes I would but I am afraid I would miss a lot knowing me ,I fish with some great guys that have peddle kayaks and they are awesome fishermen plus I fish with some guys that paddle that are just as awesome. I think this is a debate that will always be around and very well may come down to having to make different divisions in tournaments but for right now everything seems to be working .

Hey Louis, what do you think about this?

I completely agree that Louis is right on the money about making events more of a spectacle for the whole community.

That picture was taken at my former workplace Joe. Every Sunday our employer held a pool side party at his beachside resort to drink free wine and watch whatever local professional sports game was on tv.. Miami Dolphins, Heat. The folks that showed up had no idea the main idea was to attract them there so they could be giving an invitation to tour our time share resort. It worked incredibly and every Sunday more folks would show up than you could ever have gotten there advertising wine and free tour of resort. It made quite a marketing impression on me.

So maybe I overstated my point for how it relates to kayak fishing but until we attract more ladies and folks that aren't really interested in watching guys in small plastic boats fish, we must think outside the box to get viewers for a tv audience.

You only have to look at the most watched part of the Super Bowl, the halftime entertainment and commercials, to see its not just about the football or in our case, the fishing.

Too much paddle drip, Matt, but you're headed in the right direction. I'm sorry, yeah that's much better, I couldn't see the blade on the other end. Thought you'd just lengthened your one bladed paddle.

I think what will eventually happen is when the tournaments become more and more popular, and the prize money increases, you will see relaxing of the rules, and more tournaments allowing trolling motors. It will then eventually evolve into seperate classes in the more organized tournaments.

Many tourney directors are already throwing the question out to get a feel among yak anglers about the use of TM's. The majority seem to be "a definitive NO" with a close following of "I don't care". There really seems to be no one pushing for it other than I am sure some directors are thinking ahead for the time more factory electric boats may be offered and in an effort to attract, please and retain sponsors are starting the discussion. My personal opinion is that if you make it allowed, then there is no real advantage or disadvantage for an angler as everyone can decide to TM or not. No different than the use of or level of a FF that an angler can use. But with that said, I think a TM changes the entire complexion of what a kayak is - it's hard anymore to define a kayak with the many advancements but IMO the "self powered" aspect is the easiest distinction. Allowing separate classes could be an option since it's a touchy subject although I think we will find that there will be no significant advantage/disadvantage either way.

For a single or series event to grow, it should be inclusive, not exclusive. If "kayak" manufactures are making motorized "kayaks" and add on kits are offered, then the public demand is there and they should be allowed to compete either in the general or a sperate catagory (assuming the above statement is the goal. Some, like Hobie's world championship, want thier event to be exclusive). Assuming that only disabled or elderly people use motorized kayaks is incorrect. Fishall50's comment that anyone that wants to take advantage of the inclusion rule is spot on. Ask yourself this question "What if the kayak community shunned the use of pedal craft in events"?