bad news for the Pelican haters

http://www.kayakfishingmagazine.net/gear...ler-review.html

I had heard rumors of this last year among some fellow pattern makers. It actually looks like a pretty well thought out yak. Comes standard with a rudder also. It is also available in a 15' with a standard rudder. retail on the 13 is $999 rigged for fishing with rudder installed and an upgrade seat. I didn't see a price on the 15.

You know Academy will discount once in a while also if they pick this part of the Pelican line up. REI is the only retailer I have found and they don't have ANY in stock or show any coming in right now.

Tight lines, Phill

meh

I wonder why they dont use the pelican brand on it?

Where did you see that price? I'm curious because the Elie version (exact same kayak as the Pelican) is around $999 with rudder. I find it hard to believe that it's $400 cheaper for Pelican kayak.

Elie Gulf 120XE
This will be available Spring 2012. No price yet.

Very interesting!! I would like to see actual reviews once it is released. Get the perspective from TFF yak fishermen.

Lol! Layout has never been the issue IMO. Is this one also a 2 piece clam shell yak? If so I don't want one cause u can get better new and used yaks for very little more. Single piece or plastic injected kayak is the way to go

Maximize that picture of it overturned so you can see the hull (nice shape to the hull btw)
it looks like a clamshell to me. which is a big "no way" for my money.

I got the $599 price from REI, but looking on the web I think he was pricing one of the other Elie sinks rather than what I asked for. I don't see anything other than $999 on the web either. Sorry, I trusted a salesman.

Below is a quote from the Elie site about their hull construction. It appears that the upper and bottom halves are thermoformed at the same time while being heat fused together by the process. While they are owned by Pelican, the hull is quite different and well proven if you believe what is said of them.

QUOTE:
""" THE DISTINCTIVE TST TECHNOLOGY

We are the only North American kayak manufacturer to use TST technology.
Over many years, we have been perfecting the art of Twin Sheet Thermoforming (TST), a high-precision technology that shapes the deck and hull and fuses them together under extreme heat and pressure. This technology also enables us to produce two tone coloured kayaks, similar in appearence to composite kayaks but at much more aggressive pricing.

This and other key technologies and innovations have contributed to us becoming one of the largest kayak manufacturers in the world.

POLY-XRTM

Merge our TST technology and our exclusive POLY-XRTM material to get an ultra resistant boat

Used in all Elie kayaks, three-layer Poly-XRTM material is 30% more rigid than standard polyethylene, thanks to an advanced resin in the top layer. Our designers use less material to deliver the same incredible durability – resulting in a lighter and stiffer kayak that is easier to paddle, maneuver, even lift on top of your car. """

there are pics here
http://www.eliesport.com/about-us/technologies-and-materials/tst-and-polyxr.html

FZ: " u can get better new and used yaks for very little more. Single piece or plastic injected kayak is the way to go"

No such thing as a "plastic injected" yak (that I am aware of since an injection mold of that size would run 7 figures and be almost impossible to inject). I think you are referring to roto-molded yaks that made from hundreds/thousands of little beads or chunks of plastic melted together in a tumbling form shaped like a kayak. That is why roto-molded yaks are famous for hull problems at inside corners and scupper tube joints and for bubbless in the hull surfaes. Thermoformed yaks are pretty much "better" (read as stronger, more uniform wall thickness and shape definition and retention) construction than even the best roto-molded ones, they are ( usually ) just much heavier.

If the hull design likes to tip, it is not because of the construction method, it is simply bad design. It will be unstable no matter how it is constructed.

If these guys are vacuum and/or blow forming both hulls and fusing them with heat (melting them together) it will probably make for a very high quality construction method that will also be far more resistant to the oil canning found on our yaks from even slight pressure while storing or moving. It will not have the bubbles inherent in roto-molded yaks either.

I was looking forward to paddling one until I realized the price point was more than what I thought. Still a step up for Pelican to acquire such a well seasoned company. Maybe there will be a technology design absorption by the parent company.

Just my 2cents worth. Tight lines, Phill

i hope they do a better job fusing them together than they do on the pelican 2 man boats.

Carver,

I believe the term roto-molded is correct.

Pelicans in the past have used polyethylene clamshelled together, as many have already mentioned. This is a cheaper way of molding a yak, but allows for a weak seam, mainly because Pelican didn't use enough plastic and the hull would flex all over, weakening and eventually breaking the seams.

Now, clamshell forming, properly known as thermoforming, is used on several different yaks already, notibly the Diablo Paddlesport yaks and the Kajun Kayak brands. They use ABS, which is a stiffer but heavier material than poly. This gives the yaks a very smooth, shiny finish.

The main, real world difference between the Thermo ABS and the Pelican clamshell poly is that the Thermo ABS is much stiffer, which eliminates hull flex and therefore eliminates the seam issues. Now, because of its stiffness, Thermo ABS boats have better abrasion resistance (think oyster bars or limestone river beds), but lack the blunt force trauma integrity of a poly yak. A poly yak (Hobie, Wilderness, OK, Native etc) will hit a rock and flex, absorbing the shock, and then bounce back out, ideally. A Thermo ABS yak won't flex much in order to absorb the hit, and will be more readily susceptible to hull damage.

The Tarpon 120 Ultralight is made out of Trylon using the Thermo process. This material is even stiffer than Thermo ABS, which allows for a much thinner hull, which decreases weight. However, you must take care of this yak as you would a composite boat.

There's nothing more stiff than a composite yak. But for all the bonuses a composite offers, it gives up large amounts of blunt force trauma durability.

This Elie yak claims this about their material: "Used in all Elie kayaks, three-layer Poly-XRTM material is 30% more rigid than standard polyethylene, thanks to an advanced resin in the top layer. Our designers use less material to deliver the same incredible durability – resulting in a lighter and stiffer kayak..." The lighter and stiffer you become, the more closely you resemble composites.

So in a long-winded fashion, the important thing to remember is that the stiffer and lighter a Thermo yak becomes, the more cosely it resembles composites, and the more susceptible it is to blunt force trauma. As a general rule of thumb, you want to avoid Thermo yaks on rivers, where rapids and fallen trees are commonplace.

Awesome explanation TG, thanks!

X2. The next time I have a question about kayak design I'm going to hit up TG!!!

+3

Thanks TG, very good post.Your last sentence summarizes it all very well.
This next year, we will see some interesting changes on both thermoformed and hybrid constructions . Hopefully many new improvements will drift into kayak construction.

I have NDA's in place that almost silence me totally about anything specific that is not already published by the manufacturer, but,,,

Some clamshell spider sets are already being converted to a RF (think microwave) seam fusing that actually melts the components together making a seam stronger than either half of the shell. Thermoforming can be accomplished by vacuum or blow molding or combining both. RF is being added to the platens to super-heat joint areas for bonding while still in the forming process. The RF can add $30k or more to the already high mold cost so not many are jumping on board.

I spend most all of my time lately developing/producing process and patterns for various large scale roto-mold (and vacuum forming , blow , and injection molding) manufacturers. I just finished producing a life sized cow for roto-molding that will be used to produce a roping dummy for rodeo competitors.
I'm currently developing a hybrid process that sets an isolated area of high flexibility in a portion of a component that is shaped like, and as stiff as, a baseball bat. now it is like a baseball bat with an invisible hinge in the middle. This is a combination roto-mold and Blow/Vacuum mold working at same time in a single fixture and process with three very different materials.
Roto-molding is used for many commercial products besides yaks that offer many more challenges than just the obvious we face. there is a convergence of sort starting to take place within some of the industry with vertical technologies leaping into new disciplines.

The shells of most thermoformed craft were originally done in multiple layers simply to add the properties of the inner foam core which will secure hull integrity even if the outer layer is cracked badly. You still have a crack in your hull, but in most traumas it doesn't leak.(at least on paper and in the lab.). Cheapening of this process by some manufacturers has taken some cores down to a single foam layer with almost zero resilience. They are advertising it as "flotation".

It gonna be a fun couple of years.

tight lines, Phill

My main concern with the Elie yaks is the pricing. Most Thermo yaks are 50% more costly than poly yaks, due in part to the increased material cost and much smaller production numbers in general. I'm not sure how they managed to make a yak listed at $999, with a sale price of $599. I'm not saying that it's a crock, I'm just very interested in how they can produce a Thermo yak cheap enough that they can sell it to REI, who in turn can sell it for $599.

Either the new Poly-XRTM material will revolutionize the market, or someone's losing money big time. Just a thought...

Any one know ...

What REI stands for?

How about you "Know it all"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_Equipment_Incorporated

TFF, the worlds slowest search engine!