Tournament System Idea

I have put some thought into ways to promote the sport of tournament fishing. There are many anglers who tournament fish, or would like to tournament fish, and be able to compete at a certain level. The sport is growing with new and young anglers that would like to compete, but may get discouraged due to their skill level or experience. Yes, you can say that people need to spend more time on the water, but for some, that is not viable. My idea is to create a tournament series with divisions based off skill.

Almost every sport has varying levels of competition through which athletes are able to compete in as they practice improving their skills. Why not translate something like this to bass fishing?

Format:

- 10-12 tournaments in a season
- Two or three divisions
- Individual or team

(For two division system)

Division 2 (Lower Division):

- $40 to $60 entry

Division 1 (Higher Division):

- $120 to $180 entry


Anyone can fish whichever division they choose, but once you place in a division, you are to continue in that division for the remainder of the year.
If you fish in division 2 and place three or more times that season, you are to fish the following year in the next highest division.
If you do not place in the higher division that year, then you may drop down a division.

This format will promote growth in the sport and level competition. Anglers will be able to identify with a division based off skill. They will also be able to compete at a level while improving their abilities.

What does everybody think of this idea?

Thanks

Sounds like a workable idea. That might help with skill sets on both levels.

I think the crappie guys do this in the CAT tourneys and I always liked the idea.

In some ways, it already exists. I focus on club tourneys that have low entry fees because I know I'm just donating 90 percent of the time. Others fish the Platinum trail. But I love the idea of working your way from the bottom to the top in your format.

I would love to see something like that. Great idea

It's like club/travel baseball for youths. I like the idea keeps everything in a even fields

Thanks for the feedback. Would like to hear from more people - good, bad, or indifferent.

Not a bad idea at all... Someone would have to run 2 or 3 separate events... Or would two or three divisions all fish the same day on the same body of water?

Isn't that Idea already in place?

1. Club Level fishing usually 40 to 60 per entry with a membership
2. Trail Level fishing usually 150 up to 350 per entry
3. Semi Pro entry fees are roughly 500 to 1k
4. Pro entry fees are between 3k and 5k per entry.

Just what I thought about when I read your post.

Jody

My thought would be to do the same body of water. You specify what division you are Fishing in and are competing against others in that division.

Similar, yes. I don't think there's a system in place to encourage anglers to compete in their level without dropping down and making essentially "easy money".

When that occurs, like I said, it discourages anglers from competing.

This format also keeps all the levels in one tournament series and makes for an easy transition into higher divisions.

Thanks for the feedback.

good idea just be sure you keep the amounts far enough apart as not to have those at the top come down to the lower level to pot lick the lower division especially if there are more entries in the lower than,there is at the to. because those will chase the lower level if it pays more.

1. Have a championship for both at the end.
2. Maybe break it down into experience and/or money won. ex. less than 5yrs fishing tournys and/or less than say 5k winnings or less than 1k average per year if over say 6-10yrs then upper division is 10Yrs or more.
3.keep entries say $100 for lower lever and at least $250 for higher lever and half of entries for individual tournys.

Playing devils advocate here....What's to prevent a better angler from purposefully competing in the lower classes to take home more cash?

Perhaps make the buy in less in the lower division. That might help prevent the better anglers trying to hustle the beginner.

That is the biggest issue to tackle. People will want to fish against those less skilled because it's easy money. I'm trying to come up with a way to keep that from happening.

Maybe the first year, since there will be no record on anglers performance, have placement tournaments. These will place anglers in their respective division to get the series started.

good idea, just a small question, what about the few anglers that are consistently good, would they be able to start in the lower bracket and jackpot it all season for their first season? Something to think about. Other than that when do we start and will you have them in north Texas?

Sounds like adult softball leagues which are more fun when you compete against teams with similar ability.

that's what clubs are for....I think you're trying to address a problem that's already been solved...

I can see what your saying Kris and to an extent I agree, but not all anglers want to join a club and show up to monthly meetings... Some just want to pay their entry fee and hit the ramp. I could see a portion of anglers, especially ones new to the sport, who are competitive in nature and may not yet have the abilities/knowledge or time on the water as some do.

There ain't a lot of money in it now for local TDs. Throw in that more paperwork and keeping track of points and who has won what etc really might make it hard to get good directors to do it. Throw in the added record keeping at weigh in too and its gonna be a fair amount of extra work for a TD. The other thing I see is imagine you have 100 boats on the water in 3-4 divisions and you are cutting way down on payouts. Also imagine as a beginner level guy you get on a good school of fish and weigh in more than it took to win the other divisions. Does that mean you are better than the experienced guys and need to jump up or did you just have a great day at the right time.

I kinda agree with what Kris said above. It seems like the various levels are in place already.

I've never done anything where I didn't want to compete against the best. May donate some money for a while but that's part of the process.
Imo, if that's not how you think then your just going for a participation ribbon. (And I'll be happy to take your donation)

How long is somebody supposed to donate before they get burned out?

You mentioned that you never do anything where you don't want to compete against the best. So you're saying that if you were to join a local basketball league or softball league, that you wouldn't mind competing against NBA or MLB players?

My idea is to promote growth through competition based off similar skill levels. Similar skill levels are not based off age, but experience. Just like other sports.

The level of technology that is avaliable to us should be used to its greatest potential. As the sport advances, the way things are organized should as well.

Its been tried before. Tbe challenge to setting up a tournament series is to have enough sponsors that you do not have to rely on entry fees for payback.
Once upon a time there was a tournament association in the mid west that had a "Pro" side, and an "Amateur" side. The difference was entry fees and prize money/prizes. It worked for awhile, but eventually went belly up back when it's major competitor was the Red Man Trail. Plus it picked some lousy lakes to fish.

How long is somebody supposed to donate before they get burned out?

You mentioned that you never do anything where you don't want to compete against the best. So you're saying that if you were to join a local basketball league or softball league, that you wouldn't mind competing against NBA or MLB players?

My idea is to promote growth through competition based off similar skill levels. Similar skill levels are not based off age, but experience. Just like other sports.

The level of technology that is avaliable to us should be used to its greatest potential. As the sport advances, the way things are organized should as well.


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I don't think that you have a bad idea, I think you'll have heck trying to get it "fair".

I don't play other sports so it would silly to think I could compete against pros.
I am also wise enough to know I can't hang with pros on the fishing circuit either. There is a system for climbing the ladder (kind of) in place, as has been pointed out.
As to how long does a guy donate? Depends on his level of commitment and finances I would assume. If you sit down and do some looking around, most guys donate despite being cool Internet heroes. I know that's how I feel a lot of times and I luckily manage to cash a few checks every year.
Reality is that some guys might want to be tournament winners and they just don't have it.(for whatever reason) It takes time to be competitive at any level.

I think your turnout will be very low. Just last weekend Budlite on Ray Hubbard only had 13 boats and Bass-Bucks only had 33 boats on Amistad. In the past these would have drawn more. The tournament fishing in the DFW is over saturated.

If Anglers want to try their hand at tournament fishing try one of the Big Bass tournaments like Bass Pro Big Bass it is for amateur fishermen. Yes, a totally different style of fishing. They could also donate their time and boat to fish the Fishing for Freedom tournament on Belton that Cliff Brown put's on it's free to enter and for a great cause.

I understand txduckhunter. The challenge would be creating a fair system and draw the numbers.

BThomas- I agree. There are a lot of tournament trails and not enough Fishing them. My curiosity is whether or not this is due to not having a legitimate divisional competition format. If you take a random sample of 100 anglers who tournament fish, you will find a wide degree of skill levels. Why not shrink the gap with a series that accommodates them by division? Just a thought.

Thanks for the input folks.

Since there wouldn't be much "easy money" in that lower division because the fees are low, I don't think you'd have a big problem with the big boys entering down. Why would they waste a good stringer of fish to win $300 when they could win $1500?

Beginners in tournament fishing have several options. Some of which are to team up with an experienced angler in a team format circuit, join a bass club as a non-boater or boater, or enter as a Co-angler in the BFLs, Costa or Ram Open tournaments. After a couple of years of doing that and if you are any good then move up to the tougher team circuits or to the front of the boat in boater/co-angler tournaments.

What is missing in Texas is a $500 entry fee individual / no co-angler 2-day competition circuit with strong anti-cheating prevention in place with tournament off-limits to protect the working man and the circuit travels the state with rules/schedules/payouts to prevent blatant jack potting.

As long as there is a "I suck at fishing" level, I may have enough ability to be able to enter.

That would be like stealing candy from a child. If it made the better angler feel better about himself. Still not a
100% guaranteed win or in the money.

The lower level would have to have a participation rate of double or triple to make it worth while. Even then the
more experienced angler is not guaranteed a win. They all are fishing against the fish. I mean look at the BASS Opens and see some of the BASS Pros that do not make it into the money and your local on that lake take the Pro's money. It's the angler against the fish and the knowledge of the lake on that day and the angler knowing the specific patterns on that lake.

That would be the lower level.

I have thought on this for awhile now, Brent you have a great idea in my opinion.
When I played in my local club championship (golf) I didn't play against the last years club champion.
Year one I was in the second flight, won that flight moved up to first flight the next year, won that one and moved up to the Champions flight, Took a real firm kicking from the big boys.

When I first started fishing small tournaments I could not understand why I was not as competitive as some of the "sticks" that was winning every week.

I have not yet but it is coming that I will get tired of donating to the same 5 boats every tourney.

The biggest thing you can do is if you are tired of donating is to work harder and spend more time on the water. It does not have to be in a tournament in order to improve. When I am fishing a lot I do better in the tournaments. When I am not getting a lot of time on the water I do worse.

Hard work pays off and fishing against a field of beginners is not gonna make you any better than just going out and fishing every chance you get.

+1

In Phx they had a 6 tournament div kind of like this. They had 6 guys from the local tackel shop sit in and grade each angler
a score of 9 to 11 was pro
6 to 8 was intermediate
5 to 7 weekend warrior
the rest beginner
one tournament for all with separate winnners per div
but anyone can win the big prize. ( new boat )
this was a great idea but the wrong person running it. it drew about 200 teams
entry was about 120 per team (I could be wrong)
big fish and mini Ts per division.
goon fish for all 1 place
if you won a tournamment you moved up in levels
It was a ton of fun. But like i said wrong person running it.
I would love to see something like this again

This is the approach I started taking a couple years ago. Now I spend around 30 hours a week on various lakes. Yes....it helps a lot. It doesn't matter what lake so much as the act of catching fish period. Most lakes pattern basically the same.

I agree 100%, but for a lot of people spending more time on the water is not an option, with different work schedules and hours, etc. I think this system sounds like a good idea, but I just don't know if it could ever be pulled off.

While this theory holds true, the vast majority of fishermen are already fishing as much as they can already.

There are basically 3 groups of fishermen:
Group 1 - guys that spend every extra hour they have on the water.
Group 2 - guys that have extra time to fish but just choose not to be fishing
Group 3 - guys that would love to be on the water more but can't because of family, job, financial obligations, etc.

I would be willing to be my next paycheck that group 3 encompasses 80% of fishermen. So with that said, the "pay your dues" theory won't cut it. These guys need somewhere to compete where they stand a better chance of winning money. You guys can say what you want about "I only want to compete the best guys on the water" and all of that, but if you were handed a check for catching 5 lbs less than the winners, I bet you'd take it straight to the bank. Whataburger, Brookshires nor that Shell station care that you didn't "beat the big boys" for that money. There is definitely a target audience for a handicap type system. If there wasn't, then why even pay more than one place in any tournament. All tournaments are handicapped to an extent because they are paying more than one place.

Mark and Steez, I feel like you guys missed the point. The point is that the majority do not have the time to fish 20+ or even 30 hours a week.
I'm sure that most of those that can't wish they could. A format where beginners compete against beginners, advanced compete against advanced, semi pro compete against semi pro, and pro compete against pro, would level the playing field. Now if a somebody jumps up a level, that's on them. If somebody wins so many times in their level, they have to move up.

Not one person on this forum can legitimately say that they enjoy competing against anglers who fish down, only because the current system allows it. I think what you will see is that more anglers will enter the lower entry fee tournaments, thinking that more advanced anglers will not bother with competing in them. The problem is those tournaments start seeing higher entry numbers and then the advanced angler sees an opportunity to continue their ways.

Yes participation awards are dumb, and those that spend the time should be rewarded. At the same time, fishing down is in my opinion, a good way to ruin the sport. If an organized system, as I mentioned, could be put in effect, then I believe that you might see an increase in tournament participation.

No worries. Its been a great discussion and I respect everyone's opinion.

maybe a poll on this idea would be worth while?? see what ppl think. if there is enough intr=erest maybe a tournamnet div would pick pick it up. Just food for thought

Great idea but the turn out for tournaments right now is at a all time low not counting bass champs. A few years ago media at Fork would easily have 100 per event but the last one had in the 30's. I ageee with the people who stated that the tournament circuits in texas are getting saturated.

Good luck.

I like the idea, but isn't it sort of the same thing as the co-angler/pro divisions.
I know when Red Man first started, the person in the back was fishing against the person in the front, I didn't fish it until they changed it to a co-angler format b/c, the persons in the front have a distinct advantage and two I didn't have a boat and couldn't practice.
I do however remember a tournament where a guy who was guiding and fishing the top 150 pro circuit entered as a co angler, so your format might prevent that sort of situation.

Why not create a 2 day tournament format and flight anglers after day one just like a golf tournament? That way a guy who catches 9lbs on day one still has a shot cutting a check by winning a flight.

Golf.tourneys don't lose entries because they flight players after day one. Make payouts bigger for her flights to discourage sandbagging.

Team ropers and golfers are handicapped. Look at what team roping association is doing and what USGA is doing to create handicaps for ropers and golfers. It can be done with anglers too.

I don't fish tournaments to make money. I fish tournaments to become a better fisherman. Tournament fishing forces you to try different things and focus on looking for bigger fish.

A buddy and I used to fish an annual crappie tournament in Louisiana. We'd prefish several weekends in advance and rarely catch more than 10 fish. But every year for the tournament we would weigh in a 20 fish limit. You just fish differently and you fish harder. That's why I like fishing tournaments.

I know that 99% of the time I am simply donating money, but I just look at it as an investment.

I would rather compete against the best on the lake and come up just short, than cash a check for winning in a lower division.

That's why we have bassclubs.
For people that want to learn,and like competition.The tournament trail scene is too big as it is.

Many have mentioned bass clubs. If you look at the results from a year of tournaments in any bass club you see the same guys at the top. Theres no incentive for them to compete against higher competition if they're able to stay in and win money from the new anglers.

I like the tier system. Love the idea of of spreading the sport to youth, as I am a pretty young guy myself I can tell you the biggest limiting factors.. getting access to a BOAT. I have maybe 40 friends in the high school to couple years out of college range who are hardcore fishermen stuck on the bank or in a kayak. Many of those guys who definitely tournament fish if they had a boat or access to one.

I think another way to grow tournament fishing would be to grow kayak fishing tournaments.

There is a bass fishing tournament trail in California called the BBT Trail (Best Bass Tournament Trail) and it has rules and qualifications similar to what some of you all are discussing and/or wanting. When I heard about this trail a year ago or so - my thought was "only in California". I will refrain from making negative comments about this type of competition as I am aware that there are similarities in at least golf with segregating participants based on ability and then using handicaps to adjust scores.

To give you some understanding of the BBT qualifications:

Best Bass Tournament Trails Qualifications 2016

Participants and Eligibility:
A team may be deemed ineligible to fish the BBT if they have finished in the top 10 in the points race in a Pro-Am event (as a Pro) or a Team event, during that anglers calendar year. Money won from the back seat of a Pro/Am event and or any TOC may also deem you ineligible. Any individual(s) that are found to be a highly qualified team in any one Region may be asked to compete in a different Region of the BBT Circuit. All participants must be current members of the BBT to be eligible to participate. The BBT also reserves the right to ask any team that is found to be overly qualified to move up and fish at the next level, and not participate in the BBT events. Final decision of all contestants being allowed to participate will be at the tournament director’s discretion, and or BBT Advisory Board.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Please note that from my understanding - asking the highly qualified anglers to compete in a different Region of the BBT is to take anglers off of their home waters. If you are too good or become very good then they will not let you fish their circuit.

I think a handicap system would work for growing the sport. But it would have to be a nationally adopted deal that was transferable from state to state and club to club; much like in golf's handicap system. Something that would have to be pushed by the "big guys" (BASS & FLW etc.) to get enough notoriety.


My other question, are we ready for the sport to take off yet?
If the sport took off and grew exponentially, would fisheries and the states biologists (TPWD, DNR) be able to handle a huge influx of tournament related fish kills and fishing pressure? Inexperienced anglers and more of them would absolutely result in a reduction of the bass population due to fish care. It might not be enough to effect a body of water, but it is certainly something to consider.

I want the sport of fishing to be "sustained" but not to grow. The reasons that BASS, FLW, fishing related manufacturers and professional anglers want the sport to grow is primarily money related. As in more $ in their pockets. There are some exceptions of course and I applaud those efforts directed towards conservation.

I know that I am not good enough to win in tournaments therefore, I don't enter them. In theory, having two categories sound good but I know that there would be people who belong in a higher category but choose the lower category to make it less competition for them.

I've done shooting matches where they have an elite category for the hardcore people then the others aren't known until the end of the match. Basically, they shoot the match and let's say there are 75 people, the first 3 win 1,2,3. Then they move to the next group of 25 and have 1,2,3 and then the last group of 25 and have 1,2,3. They get pretty good results in having accurate categories that way because it is near impossible to sandbag to try and make it to the top of the 2nd or 3rd category because they can easily wind up at the bottom of the higher category. There's no declaring where you want to compete. The natural order will dictate fairly accurately where you are.

If there was something like that, I'd put money up and try for fun. It allows the fun fishermen play with the competitive guys and atleast have a chance to walk away with something.

This is good in theory but there's enough trail choices and options for Texas anglers already. If you are trying to compete and enter the market with a stringer format of any kind you're going to find it to be a very tough uphill battle that isn't extremely profitable.

There simply isn't a need and/or enough anglers to effectively support a profitable start up IMO.

You fish a club and are no rookie. Alot of really good tournament fisherman are in clubs because it's fun. I like the idea of trail like the op is talking about. I would just never get to move up.

sounds fun. I think I would be in the new division called I had the bites but just couldn't land them!!! Ill just give an estimated weight on what I could have had!! In all seriousness, I think its a good idea though.

Not trying to beat down the concept because I actually like it. However, let's break down the Texas market a little and see where this could play.

North Texas - Not a chance in hell. More trails and lakes than you can possibly imagine. Strong group of local bass club with events year round will prevent entry to the lower level of this idea. Bud Light, Media, TTO, TTZ (coming in 2017) and a host of one off events, big bass events, couples events and charity events all at the mid level and price point to compete against. Champs and TTT at the highest level both visit here and you're not going to make a dent in their entries.

Central Texas - Maybe. Again, clubs here, TTZ very strong here along with Champs. BLT and others at the mid point and again host of charity events and one offs. This is the best of the crappy options.

East Texas. Basically a two lake option (Rayburn/TBend) and to say that these lakes are saturated with events is an understatement. Again, Champs, TTT, BLT, FLW, BASS, host of big bass events and charity events.

West Texas. If they ever get water maybe you can start there...

Add FLW, BASS, ABA grass roots series across the state and it becomes insane. I'm sure I left off ten trails, apologies to those not listed...

I think what it would take is a decline in some of those trails before something like this could take off.

Yea but i don't try anymore