Bad news for FLW regarding departing major sponsors.

Bassfan.com has an article today breaking news on major departing sponsors leaving lots of big name pros scrambling as well as bad financial news for the organization as a whole. Hate to hear that.

http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?ID=5085#.VGbaO4hOKK3

Somebody else will have to step up to the plate now.

The fishing industry will suffer until pricing is adequate, fair and reasonable across the board. Sad deal.

Explain

No explanation needed....however, until the prices for tackle, boats, fishing related clothing etc...becomes reasonable as far as pricing is concerned; more and more PRO'S will continue to struggle to stay afloat. That's why the fishing industry NEEDS and RELIES on major sponsorship deals. It's a trickle affect. Plain and simple.

Peter

I don't understand why any company outside the industry would sponsor fishing. When was the last time you were in Wal-Mart and said "hey I'm going to buy some pop-tarts cause that guy has that boat wrapped"?

Bass fishing will survive just fine with tournaments. Tournaments NEED bass fishing. This will take care of itself. Bass fishing as a recreational activity is not even remotely dependant on what a pro can or cannot afford to stay out there. Most people that bass fish really could care less about tournaments.

I have said it for years that KVD can walk into the busiest mall in America and unless an announcement was made maybe 10% of the people there would even have a clue who he was.
Bass fishing is not looked at by the masses as a sport and quite frankly its nota sport to me. Its an activity. In the scheme of professional sports its not even a blip on the radar and is looked at as a fringe deal if anything.

If there was serious money to be made by hosting/televising bass fishing events then it would be happening. ESPN tried and realized it was not gonna work. There is a reason a lot of fishing shows come on in the wee hours of a morning. If they gathered ratings you can bet sponsors would line up to advertise on them and that alone would let the show afford some primetime airtime.

Fact is its the pros in a sense that have helped to make the sport cost a little more. I always find it odd that these guys that swear they are starving can rig a $50,000 boat with twin Power Poles, 4- HDS12's and all the goodies that go with a boat. Not that many are getting them free much less free gear. Most times its being pulled by a truck or SUV that was not cheap either.
The rumors of FLW's demise have been around for years. They keep on going on. Its just business.

I don't hate tournaments in the least. I love them and enjoy fishing them and following the big trails. I support and respect anyone trying to make it at that level as well. I just am a realist. This dream they tried to sale us about bass fishing some day being as popular as NASCAR is over. It ain't gonna happen. Look no farther than the PAA to see just how tough it is to make a go with a start up in that business.

+1

it is a great salesman that tells a large co that is not in the fishing business if you sponsor me I will make your business better . major companies had excess money things have gotten tight the things that don't increase the bottom line are the first to go. there are a lot of folks that used to get memo boats their deals have dried up because there is not as many boat companys to compete for the anglers.

The prices are already reasonable. There's options out there for everyone. If all someone can manage is a aluminum boat and lower priced equipment those options are available. If you have more disposable income and can afford the $50k boat and higher end equipment then that options available too. The fish don't care either way.

Secondly, every sports property relies on sponsorship both endemic and non endemic. This isn't a fishing specific issue. Sponsorship spending has actually increased in the last few years as businesses have recovered. Sponsorship will always be an important part of the marketing equation for most brands. The dollars will just go to the better properties or at least the one's who know how to sell.

That is precisely why tournament bass fishing has experienced such stagnant growth over such a long period of time. Everyone in tournament bass fishing likes to think that every one else in the world pays attention to it, but that is not the case. The big push a few years back for non-endemic sponsor deals for pros similar to the likes of NASCAR, GOLF, etc... was never going to work because in the grand scheme of things professional bass fishing presents a niche market with a very low, if nonexistent return for non-endemic sponsorship dollars. It was a good deal for pros while it lasted, but for the companies themselves the exposure they were receiving vs. the marketing dollar expenditures were simply not a good investment. The non-endemic sponsors are realizing this now and pouring those marketing dollars to other channels that provide them with a more equitable return.

Let me start by saying that your point makes no sense. You can buy used boats, or bass trackers etc pretty cheap, you can buy 50 dollar combos, lead weights etc pretty cheap. Now if you want to play pro it's gonna cost money. I fish in the same shorts I mow in in t shirts most of the time. Now I do run a ranger, it was not cheap but I have reached a point in life in can afford it. Prior to that I ran a cobra used, 10 k, a used skeeter 6 k, a used nitro 4500.

The reason sponsors are dropping is that it is a waste of advertising dollars. How many boxes of cereal you think Kellogg's sales by sponsoring a team??? None that's how many. They can run a few commercials on the cartoon network and come out much better. Fishing and tournament fishing is a small niche. It's a horrible spectator sport, it is on goofy networks, at odd times because nobody cares about watching, other than the handful that fish. It's not even live, hard to commit to watch something that you already know the outcome for. It also takes to damn long, just like golf, which is in a huge down turn as well, people just don't have the time to commit to it. The flw has another issue, it's a ranger deal, the companies that should be in it with teams, skeeter, bass cat, pheonix, etc don't get their boats on tv because the final day they fish from the team boats. It is up to the industry to support it first. At the end of the day it is a deal where the competitors are basically going to compete for their own money, the organizations are basically bookies taking a cut and getting tv deals and small sponsors where they can.

Fishing isn't a niche, it's actually a very large category and so is hunt. Non endemic brands do well here and love to engage outdoorsmen. It's a big category. There's more non endemic companies in our space today then there's been in a long time. BASS and MLF are proof of that.

The simple fact is that with BASS, FLW, MLF and the PAA all after those dollars someone has to win and someone has to lose. The sport will be better for it regardless.

Compared to golf, nascar, football, basketball, baseball, soccer, etc it's a niche, I would rate it well below poker also. Main stream just doesn't watch it. My wife will watch a lot of stuff, last day of masters, superbowl, America in world cup, she would not watch 2 seconds of the classic. Be realistic, it is what it is.

I would add that the only reason some of the stuff is on tv at all is the explosion of networks that need programming.

This for sure I can't believe this hasn't happened before now......even though bass fishing is a big deal to most folks on this forum and the folks that we all run and associate with in the general public it isn't even a blip of the radar.
Cost cuts may be coming but we will just have to see......that will be coming in the form of lower oil prices. If OPEC drives oil prices where I think they are going it will get a lot cheaper yet. If they do what they did in the early 90's when oil was @ $17 a barrel they are headed some where south of what it currently cost to get it out of the ground here in the US in an effort to take back market share. I don't think we will see $17 a barrel but something $20 to $30 below where we are now.
Will boat priced get cheaper because there raw material will be getting a lot cheaper? Personally I think so and I understand there are differing opinions out there but the reason I say this is I get a strong feeling with by watching how some MFG's are constantly changing their product lines/business model annually to try to sell more boats they aren't where they want to be in profitability and may be just treading water for the most part to keep their employees working until things improve. If they can get back to where the average bass fisherman can afford a new rig they can sell more boats and still maintain a desirable and better profit margin than that they are experiencing at this point. I also base this opinion on something that was said and posted in a speech by one of the top gurus @ one of the marine manufacturing association meetings a while back, he stated roughly that if they didn't find something different and cheaper to manufacture boats from in the near future the boating industry in general wouldn't survive the current situation......my two cents

This logic assumes that brands look at this as an either or investment against those other sports/properties and they don't. There's an outdoor spend, a mass sports spend, a grass roots spend, etc etc

The actual programs or activations may be different for say a company like GEICO than they are for Pepsi but the category is important to their overall business. Spend a little time researching the size of the fishing/hunting industry and how much revenue it generates and you'll know why the brands are here.

The market is good, the economy (business wise) is good. The sky isn't falling. Everything's going to be fine.

My two cents

A lot of this has to do with the tournament trail. A company wants to become a sponsor so the trail says "ok, you will be sponsoring Joe,Todd and Cliff for 'x' amount of dollars. But we also need more money if you want to put banners up at the tournaments. We also need more money if you want to have a commercial run on the air time we have purchased to air each tournament."

Then they tell the anglers that the cost of each tournament entry fee just went up from $4000 to $4500 or $6000 to $6500. So all the sponsor money ends up going to the trail.

Who is the real winner here?

Your lumping in hunting and fishing, and specifically tournament bass fishing. Hunting brings guns into play, the gun market is massive, I appreciate reaching the audience but football and nascar will get you the same audience basically and a lot more of them. Advertising is about trp first and I'm guessing the trp on all fishing programs combined is very small.

I think as long as an organization put the best effort they can in putting out the best product possible in all regards then things will take care of themselves. I have always liked the fact that there are 2 large organizations competing. I think it keeps one another striving to improve.
I think as long as BASS/FLW tries to give their fans the best show they can and give their anglers the same courtesy then all will be fine. Focus on what bass fishing is to the fans today and improve that. Grow the best product you can and in the future if expansion makes sense then go for it but for now I hope they focus on what they have right now.
Like Mark said this will all work out the way its supposed to. I don't think tournaments as we know them will stop any time soon.
Business is working like business does. Gains, losses, spikes and declines along with constant reevaluation and adjusting.

As an FLW angler I see everything a little different. I've been blessed to fish several Bassmaster events as well.

Years ago Walmart pulled out of FLW. Everyone said FLW will be gone in no time. Sponsors come and go. FLW anglers grip about not being able to "brand themselves" and wear their sponsors on tv the final day. So FLW listen to the anglers and allowed them to wear whomever on TV. In turn those companies that had guaranteed air time no longer do. They no longer want to pay big money for nothing. It's a catch 22. I prefer FLW to BASS in the way they treat the anglers more fair across the board. Both are great organizations with the best anglers in the world. My only complaint to the FLW fallout was the timing.

I give up... glad you're not in charge of the industry outlook and marketing spend for the companies who are here.

I believe it will all be fine and B.A.S.S. along with FLW will continue to offer great tournaments. Just my opinion based on past experiences.

With the cost of boats, electronics, tow vehicles talons, rods, reels, baits, and everything else, there just ain't no money left to buy a box of Rice Crispys. As long as Walmart is running they will be fine as a company.

Mark,
You are wrestling a pig in the mud. You are getting muddy and the pig likes it. Some people leave their blinders on without having any idea of what they are talking about. Very disappointed in some of Mark Perry's comments.

I respect that but I ask what is there to be disappointed in. I support the guys out there trying to do it. I personally don't have the talent so its great to see some local guys step up and hear the stories and get to see it through their eyes. If you expected me to blow smoke about how I think bass fishing will be the next big TV sport I am not gonna do that. Its not as viewer friendly in terms of TV as a lot of other sports. I also think they need to continue to improve what they have and really get the format down that reaches fans, anglers and sponsors as evenly as possible. Once that is a possibility then start to grow it on a large scale. To me that is common sense. Have solid, sustained growth for a couple of years with NO changes to formats and such then start to push it on a larger scale. The first foray with ESPN failed so I am saying learn from that and go forward with that knowledge. If the product they put out is top notch a lot of good things can happen from that base.

I enjoy the coverage now and see some areas I would love to see a better job in. They are getting there and I think working hard to do so. Saying I have my doubts it will ever be a large scale deal for the masses in no way disrespects the organizations or the anglers. I just am not gonna sit here and give rah rah answers though. I am but one guy with an opinion. Your may differ and that's fine. That is why we come on here and interact. I have and will continue to support BASS and FLW and hope both area around for many years.

Fact is its the pros in a sense that have helped to make the sport cost a little more. I always find it odd that these guys that swear they are starving can rig a $50,000 boat with twin Power Poles, 4- HDS12's and all the goodies that go with a boat. Not that many are getting them free much less free gear. Most times its being pulled by a truck or SUV that was not cheap either.
The rumors of FLW's demise have been around for years. They keep on going on. Its just business.

This quote is entirely untrue.

Not saying all are complaining but some that do have the latest and greatest. I'm not hating on them in the least just saying the money it costs a company to have a true pros staff or any other staff for that matter gets passed on to the consumer. Every business is like that so its not like its a slap to anyone. Just a statement.

It can hard for the regular guy to feel sympathy in those cases. I never said I don't because I have seen how hard and expensive it is to do it through friends that have done it. Some spend every cent they have to stay out there. I can truly relate and respect those chasing that dream but no way you can honestly say that having a pro staff does not cost a business money. If it did not then sponsorship would be easy for a lot of the guys to get.
That was my main point. Its not a blame game, it was a statement about the situation. Any costs INCLUDING pro staff costs are business costs and that helps dictate pricing.

Yep have to agree FLW will survive this they've been around for a long time and if I remember right they were what was formerly know as the Redman Tournament Trail so these folks aren't rookies at this by no means.......They need to locate sponsors that are a little more in line with the fishing industry. The cell phone industry, pickup trucks, candy, and Walmart I can see as a legitimate sponsors they all sell products fisherman are going to use. As much money as I spent on Lance crackers when I went fishing they ought to be a sponsor..........

Mark, my point is that probably 75% of the Elite pros are struggling financially however you find it hard to believe that because they have the latest and the greatest that they must be doing just fine. Do you have any idea where these guys sleep while they are on the road or what they eat just to save moneywort make it to the next tourney. Btw, I am clearly speaking for myself and no one else. As you know I spent a lot of time on the Elite tour this year. By biggest awakening was that these guys have very unique passion for fishing. At the end of the season a lot of them go home to "guide for pay" on their home lakes hoping they can save enough money for next season. You know this to be true because one your's and my friend tried it for two years. I respect everything you say with this exception. I have known you a long time and hope this will be received for what it is. Most of these guys barely make it.

IU think I am doing a poor job at trying to say what I mean on that part of it. No worries at all and I think we are just not getting our points across as good as in person. My words are not a knock on them and in no way is it relative to all of them. We have known each other long enough that nothing is being taken as anything than two guys talking.

You are correct there Mark.

I guess you think something is wrong with my opinion, why don't you point out where I'm wrong. You can be butt hurt about it, that does not change the fact that it has as much main stream interest as ping pong, give or take.

I'd be willing to bet that Jones knows a little more than 99.9% responders on this thread regarding this topic.

Lol. Truth!

I don't think it's anything that FLW has done wrong; sure there are things they can improve, but they put out an excellent product--their TV tournament presentation/production and magazine are just as good if not better than BASS. What the FLW lacks is marketable star talent like KVD/Martens/Ike. Scott Martin is the FLW's biggest name, but I don't think his personality communicates well with many fishermen. Ehler, one of their most skilled, young competitors will be mostly on BASS tournaments next season.

What I see is the massive popularity growth of the NFL, college football, and now European football dominating the sports market. All the other sports seem to be in a TV viewership downturn (especially the highly sought after demographic for advertisers 18-35 years old)--baseball, tennis, bowling, golf, basketball, hockey all have struggling TV Nielson ratings. NFL preseason TV ratings were better than some of the Baseball World Series numbers.

Other factors--the drought--I know several people with the discretionary income to purchase an expensive boat aren't doing so--lots of unusable ramps west of Tawakoni. They are finding alternative ways to get on the water on vessels that can be manually carried or pulled to be launched from any shoreline.

Bass fishing is a niche sport. It will only ever be so big or have so much sponsor or prize money. A lot of people who fish care nothing about tournament fishing. Few who don't fish or have someone connected to it care anything about it. Very small numbers relative to other Sports.

It's always going to be a struggle out there to make a living. A lot are going broke or spending money from other income sources.

Many people equates marketing to strictly television. True, television is the prime media vehicle, but strategic marketing is another another animal. The fishing industry is collectively a $12Billion Industry. Boating being the biggest ticket item should share the lions portion...I don't think so. Is fishing a rather narrow market opposed to other sports, yes, but how do you account for the interest in todays fishing which is five times greater than it was a decade ago? Is it marketing? What is it that has attracted businesses to advertise in this "niche" market? Just as the consumer has options, so does the companies advertising. Is get too far fetched to suggest that a company might be able to reach the same demographic as NASCAR at a less expensive advertising dollar alternative? So, as stated, the sky is not falling. Times a changing, but the outdoor lifestyle will always be an advertising venue. My two cents!

This for sure even though fishing is 12 billion dollar part of our economy you have to section this piece of the pie out literally because of general interest and run with that in my book. It all boils down to people who are actually going to see the brand names in public both in person and on any type of media......
As for the 75% struggling tournament anglers I buy into that 100% from my own experience. I fished club and lower level tournaments and I had to do with out a lot things that most folks would consider common necessities to stay out there on the water.........It cost me just as much to roll my rig every weekend as does these guys. I still had the same repair bills as well and I did it with almost zero sponsorship. My dad owned a car dealership while I was out there and every once in a while I'd get him to spring for my fuel...........

It's closer to 50 billion in the US. The last big report was from 2011, there will be another one coming in 2015. You can take these numbers and add another 5% or so and you'll be close to where we are today. This is of course taking into account all sport fishing of which bass is the largest segment.

http://asafishing.org/uploads/2011_ASASportfishing_in_America_Report_January_2013.pdf

Stop selling yourselves short and use the right numbers.

Lots of good points made on this thread. I don't think it's prices related to fishing. For those that care to fish from the bank with an eagle claw hook and a zebco still have that option. That's about as cheaply as you can fish.

I tend to think sponsorship dollars leaving any sport (activity) is simply a matter of return on investment. These companies have marketing departments than spend many dollars on researching how effective their advertising strategies are to consumers. Have you gotten a survey request lately for something you bought, or somewhere you went? Every week for me. I would have to think that research has proven to these companies that their sponsorship/advertising dollar can yield a better return somewhere other than fishing.

Fishing has been compared to Nascar in this thread. Nascar has had a steady decline of viewership and attendance since 2008. (Hence multiple changes to the championship format to try to regain that attendance and viewership). If Nascar, is struggling to attract sponsorships, imagine the effect of the economy on fishing, which in popularity is minuscule compared to Nascar.

Professional fishing to me, except for the relatively few pros who have lucrative side deals that keep an income coming in for them, regardless of their finishes in events, is a low return on investment "profession".
Say a guy cashes a check...just a check... In every bassmaster elite event. 7 regular season events. He makes 35k if he's in the bottom 40 plus and 70k if he's above that. I'm excluding top 20 finishes because how many guys have numbers of those finishes? Not many. So if he is so good that he makes 70k in winnings. What are the entry fees? 4500 per event @ 31.5k, if he spends 1000 per event in expenses. You see where I'm going, the guy has made a grand total of 31.5 K for a year of professional bass fishing If he cashes a check in EVERY event. Pay the mortgage and groceries with that income.

You forgot to add in the compensation that the pros get thru sponsors, product development fees, income from use of their image or naming rights, etc....If you're going to look at the expenses then you need to look at all their revenue not just winnings.

The fishing industry is far from the edge of the cliff.

Would you care to make a guess as to what that number would be for 30-100th ranked pro?

The entry fees are more than was stated earlier and there are 8 events.

I know what they are for your traveling partner......LOL

Do you now?

Only the finest hotels and 4 star restaurants for that guy though.....

Lol. That RV has had some serious meals cooked in it!

I wished Mark It will be better this year since he put me in charge of accomadtions.

I watched an MMA fight or two in there at a Champs deal I think it was. I admit though I always was jealous of that van setup he had back in the day. That was genius and made fishing a lot more convenient I bet.

Oh great....so ya'll will be staying at the In and Out hourly express motels and eating at waffle House all year....

BTW
These are my opinions and not you know who. He would scald me for this. I am done having fun.

LOL. I'll take up for you.

I respect those guys talent and the knowledge they have shared to make fishing more enjoyable. But fishing for your own money at that level is a total turnoff to me.

This brings me back to something I heard Rick Clunn say at a weigh in down @ Richland Chambers several years ago @ a BASS Invitational, It was a late spring tournament and he had already won $60k @ that point. He said he had spent more than that in entry fees, traveling expenses, etc. He said you had to have good sponsors to make a go of it that winnings won't pay the bills............

I have a pretty extensive background in rodeo, both on the competition side and on the business side. Bass fishing lines right up with rodeo as far as marketability. We all think it's a major sport, but out there in the real world, people do not recognize it as such. Rodeo and fishing always have been and always will be supported from within their own industry. Yes, each year there's a new sponsor or two that comes in and tries to get a piece of the pie - Jack Links, Kellogg, etc. At the end of the day, we all know that if it comes to buying that new rod/reel or supporting a sponsor, we are gonna buy our toys first. As with rodeo, fishing is expensive. It takes a lot of income to support this "habit". That doesn't leave a lot of extra money to spend as goodwill to the sponsors that are in place. Ya, if Little Junior eats Kellogg Frosted Flakes, then dad is going to continue buying them for him, but dad is going to buy 'em whether Kellogg is a sponsor of the industry or not. Dad isn't going to splurge and buy the Kellogg Raisin Bran just because they are a sponsor.

The other side of the coin is sponsorship exposure. Of course, we all think those logos the pros wear and are on their vehicles reach millions and millions of people. They may reach a lot of people, but it has to be the right people. Yes, it's reaching Little Junior and his dad, but we've already addressed the problem there. They are saving up just to support their own fishing habit. So this means you need to have brand exposure to new, financially stabile households. This type of viewership, generally speaking, doesn't watch fishing on tv nor do they subscribe to Field & Stream. Again, we believe everyone loves fishing or loves rodeo because our whole life centers around that particular industry, but it's just not viewed as a major past time in America.

Lastly, it was said above that hunting and fishing is a $50B industry. While that statement might be true, the subject at hand is about sponsorships of Bass Tournaments. That cuts that $50B down significantly. An equal comparison would be saying by being a sponsor of Minute Maid Park you are partaking in the trillion dollar industry of MLB when in actuality you're only centered in a very small piece of the equation.

Very, very well stated

Of course I understand what the 50 billion makes up. I simply added the link so people could start using real numbers.

This is perfect. Let's look at rodeo. If you're a sponsor of PBR are you sponsoring all rodeo? Of course not. Are you reaching everyone who's ever rode a bull or a horse or who's into riding or likes clowns? Of course not. You're sponsoring that segment and that property. Is there a connection to riders and to the demo? Of course there is. Do those who watch PBR consume products? Buy trucks? Go fishing? Hunt? Of course they do. PBR isn't for everyone and it's not Major League Baseball but it's a great property with TV, digital and event assets/activations that reach a unique demo. It's up to the companies who sponsor to determine if that's who they're wanting to reach and if aligning with PBR provides them the access and the ROI they're looking for based on the sponsorship spend.

This is no different for Bassmaster, FLW, MLF, PAA, etc. Not sure why people are having such a hard time understanding that sponsorship can be very effective regardless of the size of the property/event. Just because it's not the NFL doesn't mean it's not attractive to a brand.

That's the punch line here. The sponsorship of Bassmaster, FLW, MLF or Bass Champs for that matter, is reaching EXACTLY who the brands are attempting to reach; anglers who are affiliated with or passionate about that particular tournament organization and the sport of bass fishing.

I do agree with you about the majority of the PBR sponsors touching the right target audience. The problem lies in the fact you're not actually comparing apples to apples. We all know tv time is the media source that carries the most weight in a sponsorship agreement. The PBR actually has a prime time spot for their broadcasts and about 30% of them are broadcast live. These 2 factors tremendously increase the viewing audience. It also increases the number of "outsiders" that watch the program - either by accident or intention. Either way, it doesn't matter, it's still effective. People like to watch bull riding for a chance to see a 1500 lb bull step on a cowboy or him hang up to him and get knocked out. That's the America we live in today. If you don't believe that violence sells, look at the top 10 movies for the past 5 years and see what they include.

Comparing apples to apples would be the comparison of rodeo to fishing. From a financial standpoint, it can't be broadcast live, so it's basically like watching your favorite NFL team's game that you tevo'd from 2 months ago. Only the industry diehards will watch it. Will those "outsiders" still watch it as they come across it while they are flipping through the channels? Sure they will, if the bull riding is on. They will continue flipping if it's calf roping or barrel racing. Bottom line is rodeo and fishing are boring to the average American.

Comparing fishing and the PBR are about like comparing badmitton and MMA - they are not in the same category of fan entertainment. Also, even with the level of danger and excitement the PBR offers, their financial situation isn't as strong as most perceive it to be. They are struggling as are a lot companies are that are in the entertainment sector. Until America's disposable income increases to the point it was in the early 2000s, money will be spent on necessities rather than luxuries.

Let's see.....

Who in this thread has actually negotiated major sponsorship deals with B.A.S.S., MLF and FLW? Who has sat in on symposiums hosted by those organizations for the benefit of endemic and nonendemic sponsors? Anybody here deal with sponsorship/marketing decisions for one of the most successful companies in the world across EVERY sports/activity segment across the globe??

That's what I thought.....

As an old cowboy and a tournament fisherman It's hard to disagree with that>>

Lol, beat me to it.

Lol. I can only laugh.

Lol, good talk guys.

"This brings me back to something I heard Rick Clunn say at a weigh in down @ Richland Chambers several years ago @ a BASS Invitational, It was a late spring tournament and he had already won $60k @ that point. He said he had spent more than that in entry fees, traveling expenses, etc. He said you had to have good sponsors to make a go of it that winnings won't pay the bills............"

If you are talking about the Megabucks tournament, he had only won 30k for the year in B.A.S.S. but by that point, he had already won over 100k in tournament winnings including FLW. SO.....how was it a loss?

Ok, so I am going to ask since Mark Jones is the expert, please explain why with so much money floating around, and an industry that is thriving so many of the pro guys are basically broke? And with all this money floating around why are they playing for there own money even at the highest levels. With all this sponsorship money why make the stars come out of pocket with 40-50 k in entry fees? Not trying to argue please educate us as to this.

I don't know how these guys do it, my guess is that the ones that are not at the very top of the food chain, either own their own business, have rich parents, wifes, won the lottery or they have a way of bringing in income that is not too time consuming, which as we all know, that is extremely rare.

I am just a working man, that loves fishing, and I have spent alot of money the last few years just on the stuff that I have, which wouldn't be a fraction of what the pro's have. And I do it for the love of the sport, and not the tournament sport, I don't fish tournaments, the sport to me is man vs fish, and the challenge of course is to catch the biggest fish. I look at it like Trophy deer hunting, and I think that's what I love about it so much, but everyone has their own views on it, and their own reasons for why they love it. But no matter how you look at it, it is an expensive sport/hobby for guys like me, so for the ones trying to make it own the pro circuit, it is like an impossible dream to me.

Flw ain't going anywhere sponsors come and go and to the people talking bout the pros that are just getting by that is the career they choose they could always go back to a real job if it's that hard out there

Although I haven't dealt with any sponsorship deals with BASS, MLF or FLW, I've handled my share of sponsorships with several being 6 figure deals with major organizations.

So yes, I'm qualified to take part in this discussion. Thanks for asking.

Very well said......I'm just an average working stiff blue collar tradesman that actually makes a pretty good living doing what I do. Before inflation that we have had since 2008; 43.5% when you add gas and groceries back to the equation which our government convinient leaves out, I could afford to play this game. I know that it has effected a lot more folks than me by the boat traffic I don't see going to and coming back from work. I travel one of the main corridors that folks travel to access our lakes; mainly Fork, to get to work every day. Back when gas was below $1.30 a gallon it was nothing for me to see 6 to 12 boats or more on my daily travels to and from work. These days I may see 2 or 3 boats a month. Some folks got smart and stored their rigs down @ Fork but still ther ought to be more traffic if things were like they used to be. I DO think in the next year we will see improvement if the oil market keeps falling..........my two cents

Lol, I never claimed to be an expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

You've changed the topic of the thread discussion now away from sponsorship a little but I'll give it the ole college try. First this is in no way taking a shot at BASS or FLW or any other sanctioning body but I do believe that a Tour can exist where the professional anglers don't have to pay their own way. That's my personal stance and I realize that BASS and FLW are "for profit" businesses and respect that 100%. They are in the tournament business to make money and they aren't charities. If you were them would you walk away from the entry fee revenue "in hopes" of garnering enough additional sponsorship to cover it? Probably not. But it can be done.

MLF has taken some steps towards this with their partnership between a select group of anglers and Outdoor Channel. It's by no means perfect and the jury remains out on MLF but they've no doubt got their hands on something pretty cool and we shall see what they evolve into.

However, in my opinion there's enough sponsorship money out there to support a tournament organization without the pros having to prop it up. It is the fundamental argument we've all seen for decades.

Although I don't share his opinion on 99% of what he writes, Hale White (fish strong) wrote this back in 13 and a lot of it has merit and the answer to your query lies somewhere in here: http://fishstrong.com/open-letter-to-paa-8-reforms-for-the-future-of-bass-fishing/

Feel free to disagree and tell me I'm comparing apples to oranges...

Thanks for answering my original question.

Whatever happened to that World Series of bass deal wasn't it suppose to b the next big thing too

Thanks Mark for answering. I had an elite pro tell me about a tournament where if he didn't make a check not being able to make it home for a lack of gas, selling stuff on eBay to make ends meet. It is just a wierd deal when someone qualifies through the opens and there is a question whether they will even accept the invite because of the money issue. It's a different deal but what golfer has ever turned down a tour card, just does not happen.

It's not a good scenario for many of these guys but they're all grown and they make those choices. I understand how hard it is. I sell every day and it's gruesome at times but it's my profession. I can't imagine what it's like to be an angler trying to compete and manage sponsorship sales, appearances, etc. Kudos to the guys who've learned how to manage the whole process. It's definitely more than just being good on the water.

The whole mess sounds like it could destroy a man's love for fishing.... Bet that ish isn't going to happen to me. Why do it if "75% are struggling"? Maybe some shrinkage will be good for the "sport"!

For those of you that keep referencing bass fishing as an expensive activity it's because you make it expensive. The bass don't tell you to scoot around the water in a high end bass rig, with HD's, twin power poles, fish calling equipment, lighted led decks, and high end end rods... You get it in your head that it's what you need along with a boat and garage full of baits. Don't blame the bass fishing industry

When is your first qualifier for FLW?

VERY good read---Long but good
The last two posts by Mark Jones and whatsaweighin IMO sum it up very well

FLW will stick around, it's the individuals that will suffer. But it's simple economics, if you can't afford it don't do it.

Them bass keep telling me buy that expensive gas. Since I don't need to be listening to them, where do you buy yours that so much cheaper?

The best part in all of this is the sponsor dichotomy that is High School Fishing - all this about the popularity of the sport and it's sponsor troubles and then wait wait we have to 'hook' the next generation on the insanely expensive sport of competitive bass fishing and the sponsors are standing in line to get on board for these events ....

what is it they say ? "follow the money"

Tell me about it!

This post has certainly gone astray. Started out about FLW itself and now has denigrated to BASS and individual fishermen. Only on TFF is every one a genius!

Very good point. This HS fishing deal has no lack of sponsor interest. The sponsors have realized there's more bang for their buck at this level at the current time. Those parents are spending the money to keep Junior fishing and will do what it takes to keep him "catching". I love it. If Junior is excited about fishing, then he's more than likely not hanging out late at night on the weekends with Little Johnny being a hood rat.

"Follow the money" is what all sponsors strive to do, but sometimes it's not as obvious as it is right with HS fishing. Not to mention, it's a fraction of the expense to sponsor a HS event versus a FLW or other professional event.

Tubby, everybody was speaking of why it's a tough marketing sell to sponsors. You brought up the plight of the individual. You seem real sensitive about this. Tell us your thoughts. We appreciate what mark Jones does, it is a discussion, we are not all experts, now there are some business people on here. Some of us have extensive experience dealing with marketing, sponsorships, tv, radio, print, etc. You and crankenstien keep pooping on every opinion on this thread. Nobody says the flw is going away, the article mostly discusses the problems the anglers are going to have. It's about marketing and the reality that the pros at the top if the sport are financially hurt by what is going on. I could care less. Both flw and bass are a pyramid scheme created by some marketing.

If you could care less, why do you keep popping up in this thread. You obviously aren't following very close, I was not the one to bring up individual pros. Mark Perry statements are what got me fired up. I am not going to allow you to "bait" me into further discussions because apparently can not see the bigger picture.

Explain the big picture. Here is my take. It's a pyramid scheme. The guys at the very top are doing well, the owners of the deal obviously make out or they would not do it. The problem beyond that is you still need a field. If the field goes broke beyond the 10 guys at the top you can't sustain. Now they some how or another they get people to buy in to this thing they have created and keep it going. Tell me your big picture?????? How is what I have layed out wrong. You stay butt hurt over opinions and that is fine, bring some thing to the discussion. That's all this is is a discussion. I think your mad about it, maybe you participate, idk. Your not happy with the deal but have not offered anything beyond. We are just talking here.

Kim Kardaho could walk into my office right now and I wouldn't know who she was. Does that matter that I don't know her from a guy named Adam? She makes millions.....

The rest of the 300 million or so people in this country do, especially the 18-30 year old demo. That's the difference.

^^^

Kim in a mall = recognition.

KVD in BPS = recognition.

Let's make a good Apples to Apple statement.

If you are trying to sell bass fishing to those outside the game it matters in a huge way. When arguably your most popular and dominant player is unknown to the masses its harder I would think to get the attention of the advertisers you are trying to reach.

But on her way to your office, she would be noticed multiple times. She's not a millionaire because she's recognized. She's a celebrity therefore she's a millionaire. KVD could walk into your office and you'd recognize him, but you would prolly be the only one on the premise that would.

Mark's point is even The God of professional bass fishing isn't a celebrity outside of our small circle. Same way Trevor Brazile isn't popular outside of the tight rodeo circle currently. Trevor is the rodeo version of KVD and then some but I bet you've never heard of him. Even though we think our industry is big and all that, in the grand scheme of things, it's far from main stream.

You aren't going to sell some city slicker, makeup wearing liberal women in NY anything about a fish. Never will.

You must Market to those who want Marketed too. BPS for instance. I promise if KVD was there, there would be a line of kids waiting to meet him.

When Bossier City BPS opened you should have seen the line to see that NASCAR guy. Grown men standing a mile in line with their toy cars ready to be signed. Line went back past the over head bridge....and continued as far as you could see.

Had the NASCAR guy been at the mall in NY, you think the line would stretch over a mile?

We all know why she is "infamous"....maybe KVD needs a video?

I did mention "except for the few pros that have lucrative side deals". I hope they all have deals because if you look at FLW tour standings for the year only 9 anglers out of 179 made more than 100k. From the 50th place down and several above that position were negative sum deals after entry and expenses.



I agree the fishing industry is definitely not on a cliff. Just feeling the effects of an economy where companies are carefully spending their advertising and marketing dollars.

That is why I was saying but probably not doing a good job at saying it is for both organizations to get the core group of fans rabid over it again. Get your product to the point your fans are back to being passionate about it as well as your anglers excited and then focus on growth outside the fishing world. Right now I think if they could find ways to really kickstart the current fanbase then they could build off that momentum. Make your weigh ins "can't miss' type spectator deals, get the Classic and Cup back to being vacation destination deals again, but most of all find a way to get your shows in better timeslots and such. I know its a huge task and not as easy as I am making it =sound. I also realize all that costs money but right now I think the lack of enthusiasm from longtime fans is hurting the efforts too.

I don't have the answers and I am just giving my opinion. Chances are its way off base but its what I see from my vantage point. I am thankful for both groups and in a way they keep one another honest. My hat is off to any buisness trying to make it work in this day and age.

Bring back the "Grass Roots" of fishing.(I use that term loosely, to mean making fishing and tournaments more affordable) Where kids grow up wanting to be a pro like KVD. Right now, Dad is telling his kid, we can't afford a boat, it's a rich mans sport. Kid walks away from his dream and the future of our sport it lost.

Right when I got out of school and got a job to afford to fish is when the price of Cotton went up so fast. Now's it's so ridiculous I think it hurts the sport. I know I grew up wanting to be a PRO, but after getting into it and the price doubling in the 8-10 years I fished tournaments, it grew well out of my $$ means and too fast. I got into it before Side Imaging, when Everstart and Opens were under $1000, and boats were about 30-40K new.

Middle class is loosing the battle thus having less money to spend on fun things.

Heck my health insurance is going up 23%, I for sure can't afford to fish now days. See my post in OT, if you would like to say how much yours is going up for 2015?

Anyone think we need another Ray Scott type leader with these groups? I think sometimes people relate a lot to a face as opposed to just an acronym. People like him are not easy to find but sometimes I wonder if each league did not have a type of commisioner if things would go better in some regards.

In football, soccer, ect they only seem to make the problem worse. Makes you wonder.

that is true to. I guess I am thinking that possibly make it more personalized would attract some fans but you are right about it usually messing things up. Hard to find someone everyone would like anyway.

It is just going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out. Hope most guys are going to be able to find the money on such short notice to play the game this year.

That is a short notice. Bankers are going to be busy next couple weeks.

Bankers that want to get fired.lol

Every organization/business/company that intends on being successful better have a strong leader behind it and in some cases when it directly involves the public, that leader better also be someone that can kiss the babies, hug the wives but be able to stand his ground, too. It appears those characteristics are very difficult to find in a person nowadays.

A downright good person running the company and running it honestly is better than any commercial or sponsorship you can buy.

Who the heck cares it isnt going to stop me from doing something I like. Thats one reason I dont do but about 2 tournys a year they take what everyone originally started fishing for in the first place away that is because they love to do it. Even Todd Faircloth told me that at the Skeeter Owners last year so yall can have it I will just keep doing it because I love it and its fun.

Wow a lot of incorrect assumptions and info in here about pro bass fishing, the bassin' biz, and the hows and whys of advertising/sponsorship. Too much to get into, but will say that right now pro bass fishing is a lot tougher/thinner than most people assume. On the other hand, it's never going to go away because it's so solid...unlike, say, the Buffalo Bills....

Where are the Bills going..

The best thing I see right now is the growth of the college and High school events.
That is the WAY to grow the sport.. I feel for years we lost a lot of new blood.. Not now.

This was way before then in the mid 90's in the days of Ray Scott. Another thing that I remember about those tournaments is Ray would always ask folks to leave if they didn't want to be on TV. Seems he had a guy show up in the spectator crowd @ a tournament with his girl friend and he asked if Ray would make sure he wasn't in the actual TV footage because he didn't want his wife to find out he had a girl friend on the side.........

There is little to no value for non-endemic sponsors in the sport of tournament bass fishing. The market is too small and too specific... i.e., niche. While I've never made any major marketing deals with FLW, BASS, or PAA, I did sit through 6 years of college to learn how such things work and I do work for a company that pays me to market their products on a fairly large scale. I've also been a hard-core tournament fisherman for 20 years, so I have a fairly knowledgeable perspective on the industry.

Marketing is marketing, doesn't matter what you're sellingbut the key is to know who you're selling to. The goal is to identify the audience, develop sales tactics that engage that specific audience and cause action, and provide channels or avenues to move product. It is very hard to sell cereal, dog food, cell phone service, or cooking utensils to bass fisherman because frankly we are more interested in more endemic products. I.e., rods, reels, lures, polarized 580's, flourocarbon line,rain-gear,etc... Now tow vehicles like Chevy, bug repellent, and other goods that are semi-related to the industry probably do see value with continuations of sponsorship/marketing. In addition, stores like Wal-Mart, Bass Pro Shops,Gander Mountain, Cabelas, and Academy that sell those items would see value as well.

There are very few endemic products that you could market to the entire "fishing industry" using the "real" numbers that you stated above Mark. Fishing and its related equipment is species specific for the most part. How many tournament bass fisherman are in the market for a 50 wide Penn? How many catfisherman are interested in buying a $16 dollar lucky craft jerkbait. Can you see how that doesn't work?

Basically, as a company, you are limited to polarized glasses, raingear, some terminal tackle, and fishing line if you wanted to market to the entire fishing industry as a whole. The actual term is called fragmented or segmented and is synonymous with wasted money for non-endemic marketing campaigns.

I'm not saying FLW or BASS is going away anytime soon. They will be able to continue to grab non-endemics who are looking for a fresh avenue or vehicle,then after a few years of little to no yield on investment they will part ways. Organic companies will continuously support the tournament industry as they always have because they will continue to see returns as their products are directly related to the industry. The problem with this model is you will see little to no growth and pros will still be fishing for their entry fees (even if those entry fees are paid for by a sponsor). Let's be honest, if ESPN can't make it cool, it probably doesn't have much of a chance for growth.

Chevy team now confirmed gone too.

http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?ID=5088#.VG6aqv9OXIU

Christie maybe not fishing FLW either.

http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?ID=5083#.VG6cBP9OXIU

Are the wheels falling off Fishing League Worldwide?
It is going to be interesting to say the least.

That about sums it up...well explained

They should get someone to pick up the tab. Always do.

I disagree with the little or no value arguments. These pros are walking/driving billboards. If they don't see them on the lake or on tv they are seen wearing/driving basically a big neon sign ad for their sponsor. Can't count the number of times I've at least looked into a product after seeing a wrapped vehicle driving down the highway.

Your fist sentence has no basis in fact. You have no idea what a particular brand/company considers value and how they would evaluate a sponsorship. There's many different objectives and ways to measure their ROI or effectiveness. Non endemics can be very successful here.

As I've said before, sponsorship is rights based and is NOT 100% advertising, sales or marketing. It's supports all of those functions of course and resides on the marketing side of the house but it's a completely different animal.

I agree with this statement especially when it comes to products that are not fishing related. I look them up all the time but care less about fishing stuff...

When I see TUTT on Rayburn or Toledo I always start craving Marshmallow Fruit Loops and Brown Sugar and Cinnamon pop tarts... no joke.

Right on the button Mark. If what he said was the case there would be no marketing/advertising.

I know its been brought up a few times already but I was Joe Wheeler, AL and there was also an Everstart/FLW event where we were staying. My wife couldn't help but laugh at some of the sponsors and many are the ones dropping. Like Straigt talk/kellogs/Mars. She wondered how M&M or cereal could really help you fish (other than eating but food is food). I have peaked at various tackle the "pros" use but never once said oh angler XXX is sponsored be kellogs and say you what I really have to buy Fruit Loops cause of it!

WOW !

That's funny. The recent actions of major non-endemics seem to support my argument. But you keep thinking every time Moynaugh jacks a ledge fish on a football jig on Kentucky that people will remember to go and buy that brand of dog food that's on his jersey.

I will agree with you in that FLW and BASS will be around and aren't going anywhere simply through the support of their fisherman. And once again, new endemics will take their place thinking they can do something different but its not gonna happen.

But your theory on the reasons non-endemics sponsor/market products in the tournament fishing scene for value other than moving products is not logical to me. Every facet of a for-profit company's marketing department is angled at moving product and increasing sales, otherwise... why the hell even do it? Please don't answer with "brand awareness" because that's no different than marketing and the goal of that is... you guessed it, moving product.

I wish it would work but the bottom line is this; if it could have worked, it would have by now. There are some awfully talented marketing gurus that work for these companies that obviously thought their resources are better levied elsewhere. They are going to have to change the way the game is played, and there just aren't enough crashes, fights, or Kim Kardashian's in tournament bass fishing to attract the type of target market responsible to make enough difference in sales to justify expenditures.

That's my 2 cents, you can take it or leave it.

Let me see if this makes logical sense to anyone....

Sponsorships are a numbers game...Especially when it comes to non-endemic sponsorships. Companies venture into foreign industries in hopes of increasing their exposure thus bumping their product sales. In every industry there are non-endemic companies. If there is adequate exposure in that industry then sales will increase. Trust me, Kelloggs did gain sales from their sponsorship. It just simply wasn't enough of an increase to justify the money they spent.

Companies that have nothing to do with cars sponsor NASCAR. Why? Because they are exposed to millions and millions of people via tv and live attendees. When you touch that many people, your sales are going to increase. If it's enough people you touch and sell, then the sponsorship is worthy of renewal. The fishing industry doesn't have that kind of exposure. The numbers game is still played, but it chump change compared to NASCAR.

Of course, the variable is how much does the sponsorship cost? If all sponsorships were priced the same, the sponsorship game would be easy to figure out. A company would easily be able to determine where to spend their advertising dollars. Being that it's not, companies have to shoot in the dark sometimes and that, my friends, is how they end up in non-endemic markets.

It's obvious, in this case, non endemic products were not successful(according to the article). Who do you blame for that? Sponsorships are not ONLY rights based. If that was the case, why such a LOUD wrap(see pic below)? Notice the rest of the SPONSORS....not really...WHY? Geez, maybe it's because we have more money than them and so we not only had the RIGHTS to do it but our MAIN GOAL was to ADVERTISE and make cheddar, lettuce, frog skins, dead presidents...etc......this sponsorship deal is a pay to advertise and put your stamp on everything you want as long as the money is there...Sponsorship and advertising go hand in hand...BTW, You can't make a statement about it being a "different animal" for the sake of proving a point and not describe that animal.....enlighten us with what you mean....I've got a feeling that it's pretty much advertising and marketing.

You lost me at making cheddar...

I think he was referring to Shin Fukae. Doesn't he run the Cheez-It Wrapped Ranger?