La Perla Ranch...new Lake Jalisco progress report.

Hey guys, back when Jordan Shipley wrote his story on La Perla, the thread grew quite long, and there were tons of questions, especially after the Bassmaster article came out. One of the questions was if I had bought or was buying fry from the Share Lunker program, and at that time, the answer was no. My plan was to go with the outstanding source of pure Floridas my biologist John Jones has access to.

Alton Jones had introduced me to Allen Forshage several years before. Allen runs the State Share Lunker program, and Alton was trying to be a matchmaker, believing that merging my nutrition/forage ideas with the State's advanced genetics work would be the perfect match, but Allen had told me there were no plans to do any more contract lakes with private landowners, and considered the chance a real long shot. He was intrigued however by the long growing season, the nutritional program using forage ponds, and the chance to work with the magical waters of the Rio Grande watershed.

Several months ago, after the article came out (no connection), Allen called and said that if I would sign a 15 year contract with the State, he could make it happen. I have to admit, I swallowed really hard. 15 years is a long time. I will only be a few south of 70 by then, and we have already proven we can grow giants on our own with the genes we can purchase.

Meanwhile, Jalisco is turning into something incredible after more than a year of digging, and will be boosted nutritionally by 50% of bass habitat supplemented by forage ponds as opposed to La Perla's 12 %. The future for this lake looks out of site, even without the special bass fry from the State, so the decision weighed very heavy on me.

I almost said no, but in the end, could not turn away from the unique opportunity historically, personally, and scientifically that saying yes to the contract could mean. I signed that sucker and sent it back. Bass fishermen are a crazy bunch sometimes. What we will do for a fish!!

Two weeks ago, proud papa Allen Forshage came down with the Operation World Record fry. Along with him came fisheries caretaker Raul, who was there also to show my La Perla guides and myself how to setup and use our certified scale and holding nets, in preparation hopefully for a donation of our own Share Lunker qualifier back to the State once we can catch one that is in season (they cannot accept a shocked fish...I already tried).

When the Jalisco water hit the holding tanks, Raul exclaimed with glee as the chase began the moment the two waters converged, with the little 5cm buggers running down my Jalisco zooplankton. By yesterday, they had already graduated to bigger game, as all over the lake, I saw them chasing the fatheads we stocked at 15x the normal rate.

So there you have it. I don't have much time to get on the forum, but between me and Jordan, I will try and give you progress reports from time to time in an effort to make you all feel a part of this grande Texas Experiment. We hope to make you proud of us, and proud to be a Texan.
Gary

Just curious, the fry come from donated fish from this year?

The fry came from ShareLunker 553, a 13.67 pounder caught from Lake Athens by Frank Kirk.

So we are donating fish to stock private waters now?

He said he had to sign a 15 year contract which I assume means they are buying them?

Pass the butter and salt please

So is this now a public lake?

So does the angler who donates get a kickback?

I am grateful for your efforts. I hope this turns out better than expected by far.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be public to anyone for a grand or 2 per day, per person and then another $200 per ounce over 10 lbs for every fish caught over 10 lbs.

I'd like to hear the explanation of how Texas Sharelunker fry end up in a private lake.

Best wishes to you. I hope you can make it happen.

Deep pockets will get you anything....

They are already getting paid 1. free mount and something about a 2. lifetime license(someone help me on this one). could be the demise of the SAL program but i hope not.

I did a little research and I guess since the SAL program isn't funded with "public monies" they can do with them what they want.

Good Luck

They don't get a lifetime license, only the biggest of the year does.

I got a free mount and some clothing in 2007

So seems a private lake that charges 7-8k for 2 folks to fish 2 1/2 days is getting fry that most Texas lakes don't. I'm guessing I'm wrong but thought the point of the program was to grow big bass for Texas fisheries so Texas could possibly produce a world record. Implicit in that is better fishing for Texans and those who come to fish Texas lakes and spend money in the state and grow the local economies around those lakes. I'm not sure how this move helps other than one Texan. But maybe someone from the program will explain their plan for this private lake and what's in the contract.

Not really. These fish are offspring of Florida strain genetic bass paid for by Texas state funds which are either funded by tax payer dollars or fishing license revenue or both. Remember, Florida stain bass are not indigenous to Texas waters. The donated SAL or her offspring does not merely become property of the SAL program simply because it was donated.
There was a very similar legal battle in the state of Oklahoma over horses. The Oklahoma State University Veterinary Medicine Equine ranch was taking privately donated horses, breeding them, then selling the offspring for profit which went back to the Vet Med ranch/ school. Courts basically said you can't do that since they are a state funded institution.
Not trying to start a big debate, but this is BAD business for the SAL program. Sorry.

High fence fishing?

Hopefully a world record in Texas!!

Boy, this post didn't go where the OP wanted it to! Come on in Jordan, the water is hot.

I thought the SAL program has been sponsored and privately funded since it's inception?

I am not of the opinion it's "bad" to do what they are doing, but I do not see the good in it either.

Hopefully we are not using tax dollars to boost private waters most of us will never have access to fish.

Isn't Toyota paying for the share a lunker? If you guys didn't already know that they were selling their bass fry then you were living in lala land. Have any of you ever heard of lake X? The states own private super bass lake, who do you think is paying for that one?

UH, is that the lake where strike king films that dumb show, strike king team journal, to advertise their stuff?

+1

Get the record first then we can complain about who paid for it.

Can't wait to start seeing the results from all of this. Instead of complaining im gonna take the high road and hope that we learn something from this and it makes our fisheries better. Rock on!

http://www.laperlaranchresort.com/La_Perla_Ranch/Fishing.html

Yes, I believe the SAL program is funded by sponsorship dollars. However, the Florida strain fish they are using for breeding stock were not.

Cam has a place you can catch guaranteed double-digit, only $5k. Show up when the street lights come on and say the password. It is a tight spot and is considered sight fishing, so make sure hooked in mouth!

But the donated fish was property of the person who caught it, who then donated it to the hatchery, the hatchery is selling fry to others, the money they make probably enables them to keep hatchery going.

Tax money keeps the hatchery going and pays their salaries

Have you guys that are upset thought about rebelling and just stopping paying your taxes?

There are a lot worse places tax money could be and is wasted! If this means the world record comes from Texas and not California, I am all for it!!!!! I appreciate Gary taking the time to tell us about this project, I find it to be an interesting read and wish him the best!

As the Doug stated earlier, the SAL program is funded by private donations!

Money rules the world....always has....always will.

I'm just not sure a high fenced world record will mean much to anybody else.

I think about that all the time!

My goodness... doesn't anyone read the newspaper anymore?

http://lufkindailynews.com/news/dailysen...cd555b2a7c.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/more-sp...orld-record.ece

It don't, just like nobody else outside the state of texas (and probably most texans) don't care about high fenced, farm raised, genetically freaked trophy bucks.......

Unless your the land owner! I think it would be an awesome hobby to raise trophy bass and bucks, I ain't got no $$$$$$$$

+1,000,000

Since the beginning of time man has been trying to grow a world record bass in captive waters. Hasn't happened yet. Every time someone with a private lake catches a 13-14# fish they start talking about World Record potential. Even though a 14# bass is a GIANT, it is still a LONG ways from a world record. That being said, more power to Dr. Scwartz and his efforts. I would love to see a record class bass come from Texas waters, don't care if its public or private.

La Perla Ranch....What a crock of [censored]. In search of a world record, so lets build a fence, build a lake, feed them 24 hours a day with no pressure, use fry to develop a super bass and then call it a world record and by the way we can get some washed up ball players to help market it....

This totally defeats the purpose of world records....There should be 10 asterisks next to anything that comes out of that lake.

Good thing the SAL program doing the opposite of it's intentions, instead of creating world records, they are creating a bunch of 13 lbs fish.....

Just curious, does the IGFA have seperate records for public and private waters like TPWD does or does any gamefish count?

it is more un-American to not pay your taxes.

it is great to not like big government or unfair taxes, but it is your job to pay 100% of them until the law changes. do everything you can in your power to change the laws or give up your citizenship and move away.

Yes they do and the current Private Waters Texas State Record is 15.74

Ken, I know your company has paid some mighty big $$$ to entertain clients at Lake X. I wonder if TPWD will be able to sell trips to Jalisco while Dr. Schwarz will not be able to? Or is it going to be no fishing pressure, period? Perhaps TPWD learned through the Luminant project and the other 6 lakes that the only way to grow the WW LMB is through intensive forage management and -0- fishing pressure?

Where to begin?

So the IGFA doesn't distinguish between them then? I think it'd be great for Texas bass fishing to have a world record....regardless of what waters it came from. Though.....I'll just be happy if/when I break the 10lb mark!

I am sure glad that I am not a bitter person and my attitude is not based off of what others that are more financially blessed do with their money. The man has money and is doing something he enjoys and dreamed about and also said he will be donating SAL's back to the program which in turn means that those fry will be making it back into TEXAS fisheries. Dang fellas just be happy for the man cause all of us as fishermen know that if we had that kind of money we would all have one of our own awesome lakes built just the same. If the man spends millions and puts in the time and money to build something like this he has the same right as every other business owner to try to make a profit from it and then it is up to you whether you want to pay to fish there just like any other activities you do. Congrats to La Perla and I hope it turns out great.

Texas distinguishes between public and private water records. IGFA will not accept fish from any waters used for commercial purposes (fish farms, etc.) So long as no one is charging $ to fish on Jalisco, then a world record MIGHT be accepted. This is IGFA's language..." No applications will be accepted for fish caught in hatchery waters or sanctuaries The catch must not be at variance with any laws or regulations governing the species or the waters in which it was caught."

Well said!!

Not to mention just the scientific information that will be able to be gathered from the studies and genetics.

Well said sir!

Sounds like La Perla, Jalisco, and Camelot Bell are out then.

I think it is very interesting to see what is possible with Large Mouth Bass and to see what can make fisheries the absolute best. Just like what they did with deer food plots, we have learned a lot about deer nutrition and I am able to take those teachings and improve my land. Hopefully Jalisco will help TPW improve their knowledge. I hope they learn something that is transferable and the create another lake that is as good or better than lake Fork. Imagine if we had 4 lakes just like Fork in Texas. And if TPW can learn something from Operation World Record and make them better. We could have awesome fishing all across the state.

You guys are hilarious, I'm sure this guy is paying a pretty penny for those fry and it also sounds like they decided to embark on a partnership because of the environment he has created for growth. They want him to be able to kick a couple of SAL's back into the program, which will more than compensate for what he has received from them.

If the tax dollars are going towards this, I can think of a whole heck of a lot worse places it could go. Will I ever get to fish this lake? Doubt it. But if my tax dollars I pay have to go somewhere, then as far as I am concerned, I'd like to see them going to fund something that has to do with fishing. As far as people complaining about a "high fenced" record. Who cares? I think it is awesome what they are trying to do. I find it interesting we have people willing to put in the time and money to do the research to figure out how to grow bigger fish. In the end, this could benefit us all. If you don't like what they are doing, don't open the thread. I, however, will continue to follow the project.

People will always find something to complain about. Heaven forbid this guy grows some trophy bass in a controlled environment, footing the bill for lake management and the forage he's feeding them while TPWD documents rate-of-growth and water variables along the way. I am sure the naysayers haven't thought that the owners cost will outweigh the states cost 100:1 and they will both have access to all the information gained. I want to see this place put out some 15+ lb fish!

I understand both sides of this. I operate a private fishing club, and a fish hatchery. Not that it matters but I am also a fisheries biologist with 35 years of experience in Texas.

First, this is not new, the state has (illegally) stocked private lakes and ponds since day one (after laws were changed making this illegal). Politicians, wealthy donors, TP&WD crooks, er...um commissioners, judges, wealthy favor givers, you name it, they got free fish from the state illegally. Of course this is not very well publicized, for obvious reasons.

Second, at least in this case it is above board and publicized, not a secret political payoff as is usually the case. I appreciate that as a taxpayer and license holder. Although the time and labor to make such a long trip across the state by a high ranking middle management person (hatchery manager) was costly, the few fish produced and taken there were likely not.

Third, as a biologist I appreciate and am interested in the results of this, very old and well worn technique of raising fish to feed other fish in ponds outside the lake. Not new, go read the "Koon Kreek Klub" thread, they've done it for 6 or 7 decades. I operate a 5 acre tilapia hatchery to feed 120 acres of bass lakes on my place (I'm the operator/sharecropper not the owner). There is even a name for this type of aquaculture (this is not really sportfish management as much as it is fish production) it is called "integrated multi-trophic aquaculture." In this case the "product" is a large bass on the end of a string.

Last, I doubt if this will result in any "world records" as there is much more to such a thing than food and water. At the same time, the "experiment" will indeed yield information that may ultimately lead to a world record. Personally, I believe that "fishing" and "world record producing" are mutually exclusive operations, especially in a small lake.

I'll watch this one and the others with great interest.

There is nothing that would make me prouder than to see Texas produce a legit world record largemouth bass - from public or private waters. Many well intended folks have tried through the decades and haven't come close. I respect Dr. Scwatz and others for their efforts but a 13.9 pound bass is not even close. Personally, I believe the heat of the region will work against La Perla even though they have an all they can eat shrimp cocktail buffet. It will take more than ultra deep pockets.

I believe the ONLY reason the bass in California grow to such mammoth proportions is the mild climate and trout. I don't believe a bass will live long enough to get big enough to make world record weight in 90+ degree water temps for several months every year.

Camelot Bell has produced numerous fish over 15# but they are not even close either in my opinion. Guys, a 17# bass is as rare as moon-rock. A 22# bass is more like the Unobtainium found under the Tree of Life on Avatar...

The key there is that TPWD does not sell fishing trips to Lake X or any other lake they manage. They accept "donations" to the fishery center and allow the donor to participate in an annual harvesting day once or twice a year.

I believe they learned several key things from the Luminant project with regard to what to do and not. While I'm not at liberty to discuss them on the open forum, I am sure Allen Forshage would be happy to share his thoughts with you directly.

Pretty much...yep.

Those lakes in Cali have another thing, almost zero spawning and recruitment of young bass into the population. The deep bowl shapes of these lakes provide very little spawning habitat and the oligotrophic (nutrient poor) nature of these lakes does not provide well for survival of any bass fry that may hatch out.

The "forage" is primarily rainbow trout stocked into the lakes for local fishermen. Trout are extremely nutritionally dense, have no spines, are fusiform in body shape, and easy for a bass to eat a big one.

So this these lakes do not need to be eutrophic (nutrient rich and green or weedy) like most of our lakes, nor do they need to be productive in the way of foodstuffs, as these come from outside. So the water is also very clear.

This is a very unique situation, not easily duplicated.

That's something I've never heard before. Makes sense if you think about it. My limited experience out there was anything but a dink fest.

Very interesting.

Plus they have an established gene pool that is far superior to anything we have here in our lakes, public or private.

Never thought about it but that makes perfect sense. Only fished two lakes out there (Casitas & Castaic) but they were far from fish factories like what we are used to here in Texas. If you got bit it was a good un....

Huh? There were 20,000 Florida Bass fingerlings taken to California in 1959. Cali really blasted onto the big bass scene in 1973 with a fish from Miramar that was 20+ and the second largest bass ever caught in the US. (I still have the Sports Afield magazine with the story). That fish was a pure-strain Florida. All of these giants out of California are Floridas so I'm not sure what superior gene pool you're referring to.

They also have much cooler summers.

I could be wrong but smaller lakes that have consistently contained giant bass would be passing on superior genes. They aren't spawning with 2lb northern strain males last time I checked.

So TPWD basically dooms one of the best public big bass lakes in the State by dumping a bunch of triploid grass carp in it, killing all of the vegetation which will in turn ruin water clarity and forage base, then sell offspring from fish donated from that program (and more than likely that lake) to a private landowner to grow genetically superior fish in a stock pond that you will have to pay to fish? Is that basically what's going on... or am I way off base? Sorry, just trying to catch up.

Man they are just trying to do something special. Fry from one big bass isn't going to effect any of us. Would be interested in following the progress .

There were 750,000 3" to 4" fry from the program stocked in Conroe in 2013 ( if this is the lake you are referring to ). With the grass that was just getting flooded at the time of the stocking last year and the grass that's now flooded there's a good chance that a large number of these fry survived and will grow quickly. These were just some of the hundreds of thousands that were stocked in several Tx. lakes that included Rayburn, Conroe, and Toledo B.

There's a big difference between hydrilla and flooded shoreline grass.

nwest, which 'program' ? 750k fry.

This does show what money can do! I'm only mad I won't be able to fish it and TPWD doesn't make it public. I don't blame him for using his land and money to do what he's doing. I would to in a heartbeat. It does sound like TPWD should explain what's going on and the details of what they are doing not only here but with the "illegal" stockings and for that matter, all stockings. After all, we do fund them, we should be able to see where that money is going.

Well isn't it just nice to see state resources used to enhance a private fishery. On contract no doubt.

Jealousy is a b-tch in America, if more Americans would be innovative we'd get out of this 6 year slump!

BTW, I am by no means against LaPerla, Camelot Bell, or any other private land owner who wants to stock a private lake and charge whatever they can from people who want to fish it. I hope they are successful!
I am against using public funds from us as taxpayers, which I pay a lot, and revenue from fishing license holders to fund the stocking of Florida strain bass into public waters, then turning around and selling the offspring of those fish to a private landowner who will charge a fee to catch those offspring. Whether they donate fish back or not is irrelevant. Why buy SAL offspring? If your private system is so good, use your own offspring or buy from another private land owner. Im sure Camelot Bell would be interested in selling some offspring. They already have 15 lb + bass swimming around in their lake.
I have always been a promotor of the SAL program. I will not be a supporter if this type of business practice continues!

Why are so many people on the site so negative?

Hopefully when they get a few years of data gathered, it is made public. I would love to know the growth rates of these fish with their superior genetics and their management principles.

Low water and heat probably. Its like cabin fever in reverse I guess. Some of it is innocent questions and some of it is the same old, same old.

This is to everyone that is so against TPWD selling the SAL fry to La Perla ranch.... Im not sure how many fry are produced every year through the program but i would like to know how many fry La Perla will be receiving in relation to that number? Im sure someone can take the time to figure that out but I would be willing to bet there is plenty of fry to go around. Perhaps I am wrong though.

Regardless, I am glad to get an update on La Perla. Keep it coming!

I think a few are jumping to conclusions here. No one posted the details of the contract and what it covers. Lots of assumptions here as far as what is going on. I hope the owners post some more and include a few more details if they can before I choose a side. Lots of scenarios may be going on to require a contract and not all are bad.

and a lot of it is sarcasm

Do you think they will really come out and say "we tried but these fish don't grow any faster"? That won't happen. In the Lufkin article that biologist said this will show if improved forage base will grow larger fish. Well duh you idiot, more food equals healthier, bigger fish. A few sentences later he then says this lake will do good because of the improved forage base for bigger bass. So why in the heck are we not improving public waters? I'm ok with trying for a world record but don't give dumb excuses for why these fish and efforts aren't going into public waters. And who thinks nobody will fish this for 15 years? You know they won't wait to see what's there. Heck, what are they going to do if the man wants to fish HIS lake, take it? Na

I think it's good, they get some revenue in which they can spend the money on the program.

At the same time they can compare side by side if you will growth rates and size distribution from two different programs with similar genetics, and could possibly lead to some better genetics in the future for sal program and lake management techniques that could trickle down to public lake level.

Sure not all of the things they do would be feasible for a public reservoir but some information could be useful.

It almost seams like we are in a backwards trend over the last decade as far as true trophy sized fish are going.

Sure every now and then a giant is caught somewhere but for the most part it seems like most fish are stuck under 15lbs. When was the last time a 16+ was recorded in any kind of frequency?

The 90's were a glorious time for Bass fishing in general, look at all the lakes that kicked out giants in that time frame, we need something to bring fresh blood into the program and this might be it??

In my opinion it just shows how desperate the state is since they can't figure out how to grow a state (or world) record on their own. The whole program is a flop.

I'd rather see the LaPerla accomplish this on their own and I think they had a better chance before they got involved with the states SAL.

Mark, there was a post in this thread to a Dallas news story that had a few details I found to be very interesting. One of which is that NO ONE can fish Lake Jalisco for the next 15 years! That is a long time to privately own a premier fishery, invest a whole lot of money, and not receive a dime of income from it. Dr. Schwarz is taking on a massive project here, and he's spending his money to try to put Texas in the record books. According to the article, he received 7,404 fry.

I don't personally have an issue with it. Largely because he is dedicated to giving at least one fish back to the program. Could be viewed like a loan. TPWD gives him some now, he gives some back later. Just expedites the process for us to find out if his plan will work. And I'm optimistic!

If everyone is really interested in the terms of the contract, send TPWD an open records request. I'm sure they will be happy to provide a copy.

Alex, I don't believe your misstatement was intentional, but just to clarify, both articles stated he received approximately 7,400 fry, which is a few thousand, not a few HUNDRED thousand. There is enough rampant speculation in this thread already. A misstatement of the few available facts will likely only add to the criticism of a situation only a limited number of people know the actual facts of.

Sorry about that. I fixed it a few minutes ago. Probably while you were typing.

No problem. I was editing my post as you were correcting yours. I simply wanted to be clear that I did not believe your mistake was intentional.

All new management strategies should be derived from research programs in controlled settings. That is the only way to compare input to output. With any type of wildlife, it is extremely difficult to control all the factors that might contribute to changes in the population. Because of this, it takes many years of data collection to statistically confirm theories.

With that being said, how would taxpayers feel about footing the bill for TP&W to build a few lakes sufficient of sufficient size to mimic natural conditions (i.e. reproduction, thermocline, etc) that the public would not have access to for oh lets say 15 years? Here we have an individual who has the same (if not greater) love of LMB that every one of you who are bitching has, but actually has the means to help the future of fishing in Texas. How many of you would dedicate that much to leave a lasting legacy in this sport? Isn't sacrificing 7% of this year's crop of fingerlings worth the possible outcome? Money that TP&W may have spent on travel expenses for a few trips to stock and monitor Jalisco Lake is much more well spent than giving my license fees to some tree-hugging social club that wants to provide contraception for black panthers or some other nonsensical idea.

I personally think that we won't see any more "glory days" on public waters until a few new lakes are built. There will be good years and good fish here and there, but not the kind of consistent trophy production that rewrites the Texas top 50. The first decade or so in the life of a reservoir will always be the most productive due to the vast amount of biomass that is available during its infancy. That is what it will take to fully realize all that TP&W has learned in fisheries management...

Guys, come on, read what I said, I have no ability to sell one dime worth of fishing trips for 15 years! The State is in control, period, because that was the terms of what they proposed to me, take it or leave it. Furthermore, this is not a reward for some rich fat cat...I did not pay anything for the fry, but I have had to pay for building the lake they are going into, and for taking care of it for the next 15 years, while they do their studies and whatever else they may want to do. And do not presume to understand what kind of financial burden that has placed on me and my family to pursue this crazy dream, or to know how wealthy I may or may not be. Will they raise funds for the State program by selling some fishing trips on down the road when it gets really good? I don't know, but they have that right if they choose to, because they are in charge, and not me. Will they even do some charity fund raisers or take a lucky John Q Public lottery winner on the trip of a lifetime? I don't know, but they could if they wanted to. The bass were stocked here as part of a research project the State was interested in to measure the potential of prime nutrition, and that is it. What I am doing is unique because of the long growing season down here, and because of the lake and water resources the ranch had been blessed with when I purchased it. Don't make this into something beyond what it is: the joining of forces of a guy with a great water quality and nutrition program, together with the State's genetics experience to see what we can do to make this state proud, and to learn what we can.

And to compare it to hunting a high fenced small piece of property is ridiculous, and goes against all that each of you know about bass fishing. Come on guys, think. Bass won't come to a corn feeder, in fact they won't even move to a water release site where prawns and shad are pouring into the lake to feed them. I know, I tried! Bass are ambush predators who are not out rushing about in search of food. Bass can't be patterned with digital cam tracker cameras, and bass can't be bagged from 400 yards away. Bass have to be presented just the right lure, in just the right way, from within feet of their locations or less, and enticed to strike, which is no certainty, especially in the older ages. Perhaps most significantly, bass are not spatially limited to the surface of the ground, but instead are vertically dispersed throughout the column of water depth in addition to the same horizontal dispersion we see in deer, and except for when you might catch them on beds, you can't even see them most of the time! By the time you add in their much smaller size, I can just tell you with 100 % certainty after having had an opportunity to go after both species, that locating and then catching a specific monster bass on the 90 acre intensively managed Lake La Perla, is like finding a needle in a haystack, as compared to locating and bagging a monster buck, on even a 10,000 acre low fenced ranch.

I posted this because way back when Jordan Shipley posted his story about La Perla, I was asked if I was buying Share Lunker fry and I said no. Now I have ended up with them through another route that worked out for me several months ago. I wanted to share this change with you for transparency purposes and because I thought it was something you should all be interested in as Bass lovers and Texans.

I also believe you should be proud of the Share Lunker program, as it has made a huge impact for Texas fisheries. I don't have to donate any of my own Share Lunker qualifiers in the future from my other lake back to the program, but I will, because I believe in the importance of the program. I also believe that in the end, more of her offspring will survive predation by coming back into the lake as fry, than would have made it on their own by staying in the same lake from the egg stage on. I say this based on what my private fisheries biologist who is not connected to the Lunker program has told me for years about stocked fry versus fry raised in the lake by fish.

I believe it is a win win scenario then when a Share Lunker is donated, as other lakes benefit when a portion of the fry are stocked into various lakes around the State, and the donor lake benefits on the basis of what I explained above. As I understand it, over the years, a very small percentage of the fish have gone to a few contracted lakes on private property for research purposes as was planned from the start. I have been told that there were no plans to do anymore, until they saw the opportunity with me, and so, here we are. I had hoped to include you in the unfolding story, so those are my thoughts.

Yeah, I am shocked at where some of you are running with this, and not sure if I will continue to post given how crazy some of this speculation has gone. We will see where this latest text leads to, then decide. I was very touched by the warmth and kindness of the readership in response to Jordan's initial post months ago. Many of you asked for me to keep you posted as we moved along. This change has taken me aback.
Gary

Amen Ken A., I totally agree with all you say. Ever since the article came out in Bassmasters, people are just assuming my lake is crawling with easy to catch giants, and the world record coming down is eminent, but the evidence Ken quotes and the results throughout this country says that for me to even threaten the State record, much less the World Record, is a million to one long shot. I have seen a huge change in my fish once I started boosting nutrition with the forage ponds, and I am excited about that, but who knows what is possible? I am simply driven to do the best job I can, where I am, and to enjoy my days on the water with the adrenal rush that a fat, healthy bass population provides like nothing else.

And Ken I am so glad you mentioned California. Lake Dixon, where Dottie was grown, is I believe not much bigger than La Perla Lake. Furthermore, the big bass there are grown on primo nutrition provided by rainbow trout that are stocked by human hands. Where is the criticism for the California lakes who have modeled this process? Why is that not looked at as being like shooting fish in a barrel, or killing a tame buck in a small enclosure? The fact is, the less hungry a bass is, the harder it is to catch, as witnessed by the mind boggling hours anglers spent to legally catch and not foul hook Dottie.

It seems that ever since I posted our fees, some people have changed how they view us, but the truth is, I have yet to sell one trip. I followed the advice of my biologist who felt that this was what it was worth, and would help us keep the pressure as low as we can. I am sorry if it makes us seem exclusionary or elitist. This was not my intent, and I am not that. I am just an addicted bass fisherman like the rest of you.
Gary

Horseplay, I would agree with you if this was the case, but where, in anything I have written, or in anything the Outdoor writers have written, does it say that I paid for these fish, and that I will be able to charge people to fish for them after they get big???? Show me! Please people, read the words from those directly involved, and not of some speculator before you criticize. This is one of the main reasons I wrote the report, to prevent ignorant speculation, and mistakenly turn people against one of the most incredible programs to boost bass fishing this State has ever seen. There is no reason Horseplay for you to change your loyalty to the Sharelunker program. It has not done anything wrong or violated any statute or objective for the program.

And private pond owners buy fishing licenses and fishing tackle too, and there are tons of us in this State. Just because we may not spend our time adding to the pressure on public reservoirs does not mean we are not part of that public you mention. We too have a vested interest in this program, and could argue that the limited numbers that have been stocked on private property is totally appropriate for that reason alone, not even counting the research advantages of a more controlled environment. Not trying to be rude back to you Horseplay, just to cause you to think.
Gary

I applaud you sir in your efforts. Pay no attention to the naysayers. Thank you in advance for lending a helping hand in making
Texas fisheries some of the best in the World.

God Bless you for that Shawn...I needed that....and with that...maybe now I can get some sleep...big case to operate on at 7AM.
Thanks Man,
Gary

Dr. Schwarz:

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to provide more details regarding your arrangement with TPWD and your goals for the projects you have undertaken.

Unfortunately for you there are those here that don't let the lack of actual facts (or their not reading and comprehending the actual facts) stand in their way of making super-hero-like leaps to conclusions. I am hopeful you will not be so discouraged that you become reticent to continue to provide updates on the progress of La Perla and Jalisco. It is unlikely I will ever have the opportunity to fish one of your water bodies, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the particulars and results of your projects. I find it all very interesting. And I can dream...

I wish you GREAT success in these endeavors, and I certainly believe whatever the results, the fishing community as a whole, and Texas in particular, will benefit greatly.

Hey MPowell,

I lied. I could not sleep. The issues here and the question over the size of Lake Dixon made me keep turning over and over in this bed. So I went to Google, looking,....again,.... and this time, I finally found it. Dottie's home, Lake Dixon in California, is smaller than La Perla lake, and even smaller than Jalisco if the forage pond acreage is added to the total, which I believe is a no brainer to do. CALIFORNIA'S FAMOUS LAKE DIXON IS 70 ACRES, and in 2014, they stocked 27,000 pounds of trout! They do at least that amount every year, exceeding my prawn contribution in weight to my La Perla Lake bass, but about equal to what I will be able to do at Jalisco for the State's bass. Granted those trout are for their customers to fish for, but they are also what grew an almost WORLD RECORD fish.

MPowell you brought me to tears...for real. Thank you. There is no reason to have embarked on this insanity of a pursuit but for the love of the chase, and for the desire to make people proud. It appeared all of that was going up in smoke with this chaotic internet stuff. It still may, but your words and those of the last poster were hugely needed, along with the other prior supportive posts, but it is incredible how much a critic hurts if you do happen to care what people think. "Like water off a duck's back" never worked for me.

My wife would have already left me over this Field of Dreams if she were normal, but thankfully she follows Gods word and sticks it out. I thank God for her. I also thank God for the Share Lunker Program, for all who have helped support it, and for Allen Forshage who has dedicated his life to it. He makes my passion for Bass and for making Texans proud of me look like "Ned In The First Reader." Drop him a note of encouragement too if you get a chance, all of you who believe in what he has done. He is a heck of a lot tougher than me, and more hardened by the years of dealing with critics, but he still cares, and he still hurts. I believe that Texas needs him, and I believe that Texas needs this program.

Now MPowell I am going to try again to do this and get to sleep: 2:47 AM and 3 hrs to alarm sounding. (By the way I am going to kill Jordan Shipley for introducing me to the Texas Fishing Forum!!!)
Night,
Gary

"...and by the way, I am going to kill Jordan Shipley for introducing me to the Texas Fishing Forum)."



...And I will if I can, I promise. Not because of these issues, but because I don't have the time for another passion!

Yep,still awake. 3:40 and counting. My divorce may be imminent in spite of a Godly wife!).

i always look foward to your progress reports. keep up the good work.

Dr Schwarz,
Follow your passion, sir. Please don't concern yourself with what is said on this forum. As you can see from the number of my posts, I don't say a lot. But I do enjoy following what happens on this site. It's kind of like watching Honey Boo Boo, Lizard Lick Towing, Duck Dynasty, or any number of the unreal reality shows...its just kind of interesting to see what is going to get posted next by someone with little knowledge of the facts or the same convictions of the original poster and some of the content seem to come out of far left field. I grew up in Pennsylvania before starting and retiring from the Army. Hunting was my family's life and we often saw the TV shows about south Texas and had the same "ignorant" opinion about big deer being caged, fed extremely well, and then released into a small pasture for the purpose of filming the "hunt." It wasn't until I spent most of my career in and out of south and central Texas did I realize what you and others have done for the hunting industry, providing incredible research opportunities for improving deer management, and providing the chance for a Dad to take his kids on a hunt of a lifetime...me and my boys have benefitted from your efforts. I'm sure you experienced critics at the beginning of Tecomate also.
So, do what makes you happy, what your Family can support, and what you feel is right. It may take years, but if just one 12 year old kid can look at his Dad with wide eyes and a huge smile after catching a great bass because of your efforts, none of the criticism will matter. Something good will come from this (and inevitably there will be some setbacks), so we should all just give it a chance. And we will fish La Perla before my boys leave the nest...the memories will be worth the cost.

From their Florida Bass hatchery program, and sorry I was mistaken on the 750K, the actual number was 517,886.

Ok, thanks nwest. I thought you were referring to fry from the SAL program and OWR.

Gary,

Keep on keeping on. You blazed a trail for all of us who were interested in improving habitat and nutrition for whitetails. Now you're using your resources to attempt the same with LMB. And forget the high-fenced fishing naysayers. I get that for fishing Camelot Bell (40 acs.) all the time. Folks who have never fished there simply can't believe that one can go to that fishery and not have 10 pounders jumping in the boat. "It's not fair" and is "shooting fish in a barrel" and "anyone can catch fish in that setting" are just a few of the gripes. I've been skunked out there more times than I care to admit. They're Florida bass and they are finicky. But when they're on, they're on and there are lots of huge bass to be caught.

If you had listened to the negativity when ya'll began the Tecomate experiment, you would have never attained your goals. You did attain and surpass those goals. So, though those words may hurt, I know you will not let them deter you. I believe your partnership with the state will yield valuable research data and huge fish. I wish you nothing but the best as you embark on this 15 year journey.

Fouz

Look at the SAL data of all the fish caught since the program started. SALs are caught less frequently, and are smaller on average. Compare all the SALs caught from 1985 to 1999 against all the SALs caught from 2000 to today, less SALs and the SALs have gotten smaller.

I created an excel spreadsheet and sifted through the data and it is definitely factual information that is public. If I can figure this out then surely SAL program can recognize this and they are probably looking for an alternate way to produce the fish since genetics hasn't produced it.

Gary,
I think what you are doing there is fantastic.
Can I go fishing with you sometime? I'll bring a new bottle of Pappy Van Winkle 20 for us to enjoy!

This might have more to do with the age of the lakes now, when was the last lake built of any size?

I see how it is, When you bribe me all you off is Mad Dog 20/20 and Banana Red, not even the Grape...


On a serious note:

Don’t let anyone keep you from doing what you want to do. I think it’s a great thing you are doing, and can not even begin to imagine the time and money that you have invested, little alone giving up control of it to allow the state to do their testing and research.

Also I want to thank you for posting and keeping us updated on the progress of your two lakes. It’s almost an unfathomable to think about what you have put into this, and I personally would love to see some pictures of the work. I can’t imagine what the set-up is like and then to have the prawns, and other production lakes, it must be flat amazing!

I don't post much either, but I am truly fascinated by what Gary is doing. I wish there were more updates with Tecomate. Gary get on TexasBowHunter.com and give updates there

I like the updates now, but I can not wait to hear about the statics that come from this research. I hope that TPW will share, and allow you to share the information gained.

I am interested in knowing how old share lunkers are in other lakes, and how old your 13lb fish are. Are the fish able to live longer, is that due to food, fishing pressure, etc. Lots of information to gain from this, just can't wait to hear it. Maybe one day I will own enough land that first off I can hunt and have food plots, and 2nd build a great pond. Nothing huge, but maybe some tid bits from this lake will help me learn. Maybe introducing a ton of crawfish is better than shad. Maybe crawfish habitat is important on a body of water. I dunno, but I am excited to tell you the least.

Please, please, keep updating us.

Can I sneak in after dark.? Please

Not really an area you wanna be wondering around at after dark....

Once

Gary,
Thanks for your reply. Let me clarify a little. It doesn't matter how you obtain the SAL fry, it is a conflict of interest for a private land owner to use State funded resourses if you are going to eventually charge a fee for someone to fish your lake. Maybe I am wrong in my assumption and I apologize if so, but I cannot imagine you or anyone else investing that much time and money to not eventually try to recoup some of that by charging a fee to fish? If you want to be transparent, then show everyone a copy of the contract. I'm sorry you get offended that people ask questions or demand answers, but I would hope you would do the same when your on the other side of the fence so to speak. If I got upset and quit posting on this forum the first time someone disagreed with me or had a different opinion, I would have been gone a long time ago. This forum is a great place to learn and have discussions.
Again, I hope you are successful with what you are trying to do in growing trophy bass!

Well that's all I ever see you drink!
I got some Sloe Gin for you next time! But it is vintage.

Dr Schwarz

Thank you for taking the time and consideration to update and inform TFF members like myself on your progress with your lake projects. Every time I drive past your gate on 83 my imagination runs wild thinking about those Bass of La Perla that lay just beyond sight. Good luck with everything you are doing and thanks again.

Basically, anybody reading this forum just got a multi-million dollar education for almost free. That in and of itself is worth the price of admission as a Texas Fishing License holder and TFF member.

I was going to mention in many of the um, er...uh, interesting dealings I've been er, privy, to over all these years, there was some "quid pro quo" involved, and the state, TP&WD-if you will, all fishing license holders by extension, usually would get something in return for whatever it was they were um, doing "research" with. This here case goes so far beyond that it is difficult for me to comprehend. All this one man, a Dr. Schwarz, gets is to be part of a very interesting research study. Not one of those 1/4 acre pond or ten gallon fish tank studies, a real life, real lake with real controls and real uncontrollable things as well, scientific study. And not just be a part, as it looks to me he also gets the honor and privilege to pay for the entire kit and caboodle. So, as far as I'm concerned he is owed a debt of gratitude by all those in pursuit of both knowledge and bigger bass. That is how I feel about it as a Texas license holder, as a businessman in the outdoors, and as a biologist. Win, win, win.

Saying all that, the scientific observer in me takes exception to one or two things Dr. Schwarz and his biologist (I know who it is) seem to have learned that is a bit off from my long term observations. Perhaps a topic for further discussion at some other time....

I hope and pray the addiction to TFF takes aholt of Dr. Schwarz like it did me and we get to learn a lot more things like all those above as the project progresses, first hand.

I also do believe, contradictory to some of the above, that LMB can be "trained" to stay and feed (bite a lure) in certain locations, under some circumstances.....once my job depended upon that....

I just want to know why would the La Perla have ever agreed to give up their lake for 15 years if that's what the contract really said. Seems stupid to spend that much money for nothing but a "study" in return. There has to be more to this than any of us know (excluding La Perla & state biologist).

Fishbreeder, obviously bass will stay where they know the food is coming from. There's a teenager on here that feeds them by hand and even has names. He has been doing it for a couple of years.
I would love to fish these lakes and I am happy for Dr. Schwarz. That said, I can't see where TPWD should be involved other than info sharing. Unless this lake will be opened to the public later. Ofcourse, I feel the same about lake x. TPWD could gain some knowledge but lets be honest, what don't they know. The more you feed, the more they grow, besides that, the more cover the merrier. They aren't going to start growing prongs to put in lakes. I am interested to see what the guy can grow and I hope he grows the world record. It would be pretty cool, although really hard.

Well you got your altruism......then again, I try to think both like a biologist and a businessman. Yes, surely there is money involved and potential for profits at some point in such a "scheme." Nothing wrong with that, I also work for money. Land values may increase after 15 years and a lake with a reputation for gigantic specimens not found elsewhere, or indeed, if a world record LMB were produced, they payoff could be huge, you must think like as businessman, not a biologist or fisherman to see it.

A scenario....so the project works beyond anybody's imagination and after 15 years you got a lake with a some sea monsters in it. Call up an old buddy at PRADCO and ask him, "Which bait you wanna push? We can get you a gin-u-wine 20+ bein' caught on film on that bait for 'bout 'um say $half million$....."

I've told the tale of the first scumfrog tv commercial I helped make with Keith Warren a hundred years ago before they were released for sale.

Say a rich old Japanese businessman dreams to catch a 20+ and matters not how much the cost.....I have seen koi sell to the same type dude for that $half million$ why not a 20+ every bit as rare as a top koi?

The commercial opportunities as well as the road to get there are only limited by your knowledge and your imagination. Granted a 15 year planning horizon is kinda long....but stuff likes this takes a long time.

I truly hope they raise the record and that I live to see them (all involved, including TP&WD) cash in big time. If that is what they want.

In a place some may have heard of near West Columbia, where abovementioned tv commercial was filmed, we did find a way to congregate and hold, actively feeding (biting) LMBs where they were especially vulnerable to capture by hook and line.

Oh, and I really like rainbow trout as cheap bass food....

I know those fish at Lakes of Danbury would line up by the dock when the truck came to dump gizzard shad or crawfish. It was a solid hour of bone crushing explosions with giant gizzards flying out of the water like mad. After the melee subsided, one could throw a zara spook and have the time of their life for another hour or two. It was something to experience.

Haha fish breeder I think I need to sign you up as my business adviser!

Seriously, to each and every one of you who have posted since my long night the other night when I texted so much and laid my guts out there, thank you so much. You have lifted my spirits and encouraged me more than you will ever know. I want to respond specifically to as many of you as I can, but no time now. I got in late last night and could not keep my eyes open, but I will answer all of these sincere comments and questions later.
THANK YOU!
Gary

Yea they are pretty easily trained. Just watch mike longs live trout stocking videos from cali. Amazing sight to see when those 12" rainbows are first dumped in the lake and are delirious. Easy pickings for giant bass.

I have a buddy who periodically feeds a big fish chunks of ham off the dock at his pond. Its pretty crazy to watch

Great now the guessing will stop. We'll know what's in the contract, will the lake be fished, what dos the state expect to gain and what does the ranch expect to gain.

might be old news but Arms Bait Co,Proctor,Texas( Harold Arms(deceased)-business still operating) raised fingerling bass,hybrid bass,ect on high protein pellets. Trained to come to feeder,moved to holding ponds,continued training to come twice a day to 40% protein pellets then moved to private waters where they were further fed--like Fouzman mentioned " a feeding freezy"--weren't really hard to catch but fun. fast growing and stout

The fish at Camelot Bell came from Harold Arms while he was still living.

Fouzman-don't the fish have genetic markers???

My name is Frank Kirk. I'm the guy who caught the 13.67 from Lake Athens SL#553 .
What started out to be a big deal for me personallly has turned into something much less. Had I known that some offspring from my fish would end up in the hands of some rich guy I would have released her. I have been accused of getting kickbacks and have had sportswriters call wanting an interview. What I'm going to do is return the mount and other stuff and wash my hands of sharelunker. This whole deal doesn't smell right.

Which fish?

I'm just curious, don't want to cause any trouble. But how many figerlings went back in to Lake Athens from the SL#553, and how many would have survived to that same stage if she would have bred in the wild? Are those numbers out there?

edit:
Just looked up an article posted early, said 18,000 offspring from 2 SL's were released into Athens. How many would normally survive (to the stage that TPW released them)?

Also have any OWR fish that have been stocked in Lake Athens? Article says 850,000 offspring has been released in Texas. (not sure if that is from just the one OWR fish they took from one of their contract lakes)

Please don't turn this into another SAL thread.

Gary is trying to keep us abreast of what's going on down south.

Thanks Gary.... Looking forward to hearing some of the details when you get a chance.

Thanks for sharing!
I'm waiting for 16 lb plus as a possibility- then I'm there if possible.
Pretty much size matters. Sounds like very soon fish that size or bigger will be possible. I just don't fish any public or pvt water without that size possibility- sorta limits my choices.
Keep up the great work!!!

Will you adopt me??

One of the most absurd things I have ever read on here.

be sure to post a picture when you do.

absurd to the idiots and/or non-Patriots. Personally, I'm very proud of the United States, there are things I don't like and vote accordingly, but I support this country. If you don't, leave.

I guess our founding fathers were idiots and/or non-Patriots

find a new land, find a new government, that is different. if you are living within the United States, a United States Citizen, and receiving any benefits funded from tax dollars, then it is your American duty to pay 100% of all taxes due. If not, you are no better than meth head scum stealing things from others.

See, it's like watching NASCAR hoping for a wreck or watching a gator hunter get his hand bit off. We went from getting an update about the efforts to raise world class bass in Texas to questioning patriotism to comparing someone to a meth head scum. You just never know what you might see next on the TFF...it is definitely entertaining to say the least.

Start a new thread. Whack this one.

Your argument is solely based on the premise that it is our duty to obey laws completely, just because they are the law. This goes against everything that I stand for as an American. I'm not advocating not paying taxes, but to say that we should just stand idly by and accept whatever the government tells us because it is our patriotic duty is fundamentally different than the mindset that our founding fathers had, and the mindset that I have. Just because they had an ocean between them and their intrusive government doesn't mean they would stand for an intrusive government in Washington D.C.

Rob never said anything about standing idly by. He said "do everything you can in your power to change the laws."

Now you kids quit arguing over subjects unrelated to the OP's thread, or Dr. Schwarz may never come back!

thank you man, maybe he missed that 2nd part.



I think wires got crossed. trust me, I hate taxes, I'm paying a multiple of what I feel my fair share is, but it is my duty to pay them 100% until the laws change. while I pay all my taxes, I'm also part of groups like Americans For Fair Taxation and Club for Growth. I also vote for people I think will make the changes I want.

sorry, back off this tangent.

Would doing everything in your power to change a law include breaking it to make a point? Like not getting up from your seat on a bus... Or dumping tea into the harbor... I guess those people are no better than meth heads and not patriotic.

But back on topic, I support the decision to sell or donate the fingerling to La Perla. TPWD benefits from this in many ways at a minimal cost. The scientific research gained from studying the success or failure of the extreme measures that La Perla has gone through will be more beneficial in the long run by far than any impact that those fingerling would have had by being released directly into a public lake.

I didn't miss anything.

I personally am Thankful for his time and effort to keep us up-dated! I regret the actions/words from some on this Post but it is their right, I hope that he and Jordon will not be discouraged in the near future!

Y'all have tried to spin this thread in a direction that never ends, politics!


Back to Dr. Schwarz's project,

Thanks for the updates, please keep us posted on your progress.

This thread has continued to get goofier every day! If some dude wants to invest his money in a body of water in hopes that he may have created a bass world unlike any other - why the crazy amount of judgement? Thanks for your interest in the sport!

Money is king - if you don't have it the share a linker sat fork and Athens and so many other lakes are free to catch - Go Catch Em!

Ok guys, I am going to try and answer all of your questions as well as I can, and I am going to start with you Horseplay, because I owe you an apology. When I went back and reread my opening of this thread to tell everyone what we had done, I realized it was not clear in fact if the fry had been purchased by me or not, so my bad on that.

I did not pay for the fry. I did not receive them out of favoritism, cronyism, political connections, loyalty, friendship, or any other reason related to pay back for something I may have done in the past. I am not some rich guy. I did not receive them for anything I promised to do in the future, other than agreeing to turn over control to Texas of the new lake I was building for myself. I was sent the fry because Allen Forshage became convinced by what he saw that the interests of the State of Texas, and the bass fishermen of Texas would be furthered and enhanced by entering into a cooperative relationship with me on a new lake I was in the process of building for myself, Jalisco. It was as simple as that. He was and is convinced that the potential gains and rewards back to the State and to bass fishermen will far out way the costs of doing it.

Allen has invested his life into the SAL program. He is driven to make a difference for the fishermen of Texas and for the State through the achievements of the program. It is his purpose in life and his passion. His legacy will be forever attached to and dependent upon the programs success or failure, and as you know, there have been many successes. However, after the great start for the program, the momentum has slowed over the past ten years. He was and is convinced that Jalisco can supply a needed shot in the arm. It is not in his best interests to do something stupid, self serving, for special interests, or that will not potentially benefit all.

As for me, the decision was not easy. Yes Horseplay I can eventually sell fishing trips there, but Dude, 15 years is a LONG time, especially for a guy my age. By the time it is up, I will long since have either survived and held onto the ranch and projects, or failed. Any income I could generate by then from the fish will be too late to save the ranch if my income declines for any reason. Another place I made a mistake was on my age calculation I put down, because I won't be almost 70 when the 15 is over, but 80!! The cost of finishing the building of the Jalisco project and the costs of doing all that I do out there will not be easy to pull off, and if something happens to me physically to where I can't work, I will not be able to hold onto the ranch. Yes I can sell the property, but the new owner will have to live up to the contract. The revenue that I stood to generate by sticking with my plan as talked about in the Bassmaster article, had I kept control of Jalisco and stocked it with my own pure Floridas I have access to, would have really helped and provided a safety net.

The problem is, I have a sickness. I am driven to do things that have never been done before. I can't help it. I am not normal. Whether it involves my oral surgery practice, my deer program, or the bass lakes, I have to push. If I can see a mountain to climb, I have to try, even if it makes no rational or economic sense. So.....I signed it.

And now, in honor of Horseplay who asked for it, here is my contract that I signed and then sent to the State. I could not find my copy of the one they faxed back with their signature, but trust me, this is it, and Allen has given his blessings to me to release it.

Next, I will talk about what it means, and answer more questions.
Thanks,
Gary

Guys,

Just let the man grow a world record.

Sheesh.

This isn't a conspiracy theory.

x 1,000.... this thread has gotten pretty ridiculous. Doc, do what you want, this is America. I wish you all the best and as a proud Texan would love to see the world record come from here.

I hear crickets from the bashers...

I am curious, Is there a contract in place between someone who catches a SAL and in that contract does it talk about how and where the fry will be released. I mean I don't know I have never caught one, I mean is it a hand shake deal that a SAL fry is released back into the lake in which it's parents came from?

It has been discussed over and over about the SAL helping or hurting Texas Bass Fishing. I know just by watching how this deal has played out there is a lot less 15 pounders showing up these days, Maybe the drought or maybe the lakes are old and cannot produce, I don't know but maybe we are interfering to much with Nature and that's throwing things out of whack. This project may answer a bunch of these questions.

I wish nothing but the best for this project and it does achieve the goals set forth. I hope this will lay a blueprint to make bass fishing better in the state in the long run. 15 years is a long time. Hopefully you will see results in 9 and if it works out like you think and you have 18 pounders swimming, That property just doubled in price and there will be just a few years left for a investor to pay a awesome price for that place. I do hope you keep us informed of the progress and I truly wish you the best of luck of this project. If I hit the Lotto in the next 10 years I will pay you triple your out of pocket cost. Man I could only dream of a Chug bug dancing around a bush on a April morning under a partly cloudy sky.

you are advocating breaking United States laws and you call me absurd? Ohh my, I now see you are mentally diminished, I apologize for picking on a handicapped person.

Well now I'm really confused! So the lake is now being controlled by the state? So, there won't be anymore prawns fed to the bass? None of this makes sense, you build a lake and make it worthless to yourself for the next 15 years.

Wow...All this private lake bass talk is great for business.

I would be embarrassed to tell how many hours I have spent discussing bass genetics with some of the leading biologists and lake managers in the country. What I have learned is what seems simple, is not. Controlled fish growing studies are few and far between, as trying to replicate forage, water quality, environment, artificial food, predators, habitat, harvest and a dozen other factors are impossible. We would love to know how tweaking each of these factors affect fish growth. But the reality is that the factors change many times over even in short studies that might last only a year or two. Can you imagine a study for 15 years? Lots can go wrong or things can go better than expected. The map to grow trophy bass (14 lbs and larger) is fraught with so many choices, circumstances, and luck that it makes your head spin. This does not even take into account, will those giant fish ever bite a lure.

I am absolutely floored by Gary Schwartz transparency and honesty and thrilled that he was willing to share this on a public forum. Moreover, his commitment is second to none. What a great opportunity it will be for Alan and his team to learn and possible change the way we look at bass genetics and lake management practices. Thank you! Thank you! and Thank you!!

Serenity NOW!

Rob, you guys create another thread in the OT or Bunker to hash this out. Please!

My GOSH!!! The level of detail Dr. Schwarz and Mr. Forshage just shared with this community is...honestly, unheard of.

Take the negativity not specific to the subject elsewhere, please.

Those of u who aren't into dry land farming and huge, native whitetails may have never heard of Dr. Gary Schwarz prior to this thread. The man changed habitat management for wildlife all over the south. The ancillary benefit was white-tailed deer with heavy, chocolate antlers weighing 230-270 lbs at 6 years of age.

The Dr. was able to support much higher deer densities and recruitment than surrounding properties. The results are unrivaled. The man will eventually be inducted into several Texas Hall's of Fame.

Now then, if I had no knowledge of what I just wrote, I might be piZed as a license holder, too.

Do your own research before casting aspersions.

My comments are mine only and were not approved by Dr.S

Sorry Grout Scout, it is confusing. The State is expecting me to continue doing all of the things that increase the nutrition for the bass, only one of which is the prawn thing. I will be sending photos and explaining all of that as we go along, but what attracted them to do this with me in the first place was what I do to increase groceries for the fish, and as long as there is breath and economic life in me, I will continue to do that.

However, I can't remove any of their bass on my own without their approval for 15 years, I can't commercially fish it with customers, and I can't even recreationally fish it unless I am with them when later on as the population begins to need thinning, they have scheduled days for that. Even then, they are not required to include me, although I would be extremely disappointed if they did not.

I tend to agree and I'll start my two cents with a question.

How did you feel or what was your thought when you heard that the world record was tied from a fish from Japan?

Second question:

How would you feel if the record was broken with a fish from California?

With regard to growing trophy fish what works in Florida, California, or Japan will be totally different to what will work here in Texas. It is also apparent that efforts to date here in Texas eg. SAL program while very positive to improve our fisheries are not producing 20+ pound fish.

So then it is very appropriate to shift gears if you will to and create a closed system(s) with fewer variables in order to understand what water, climate, forage, and genetic alleles combinations are necessary to product the desired result.

La Perla apparently your distress from the naysayers indicates your true intentions. Personally I would not allow myself to be goaded into posting contractual agreements. Just stay with your purpose for you know your intentions and therefore should not need universal acceptance.

Please continue to update on the progress for it is a learning opportunity. Thanks and good luck.

JT Evans

I don't think its right, no way. I'm meeting with sharelunker guy tomorrow but
he was very defensive over the phone. The release I signed was they could retain
1% for "studies". So, 1% of 150,000 is 1500 not 7000,or is the new math. I know money will
win in the end, but if it looks bad and smells bad, guess what. Figure it as bass per acre
this Jalisto made out vs. the lakes that got fingerlings.

You didn't answer my question. Can I go fishing with you?

I wonder if there are any documented surveys of private or public waters in Texas that have yielded any fish over 20 pounds?


I heard a rumor of 2 OWR lakes that had 20+ pound fish around 2011, but nothing documented.

Fouzman, who are you?? Do I know you?? You were actually my next person to respond to because of your excellent post where you gave your personal experience from fishing the current best place in Texas to fish at from what I hear, Camelot Bell. I am having Outdoor writers who are good, smart, people that are being critical by comparing what I am doing at the ranch with bass to ruining fair chase for Whitetails, and it just blows my mind and frustrates the heck out of me.

What you described at Camelot is exactly what I have seen on La Perla Lake....when it is on, it blows your mind, and when it is not, you pull your hair out and wander if they all died. The importance of nutrition in my mind is in fact similar between deer and bass, just as it is important for athletes or race horses. That is the duhhhhhh point that some have mentioned which should not require rocket science to prove...and yet it has not been quite all worked out and figured out how to make it primo better. That is what we are trying to do.

BUT.......TO SAY THAT CATCHING A GIANT BASS ON A 30-100 ACRE INTENSIVELY MANAGED PRIVATE LAKE IS lIKE KILLING A TROPHY BUCK IN A 100 ACRE HIGH FENCED RANCH IS JUST WRONG, it is ignorant, and it just proves to me that the person saying it has never tried to catch a specific bass in such a place, but rather is drawing conclusions from a mental expectation of what it would be like, and not reality.

Anyway, you humble me very much sir, and elevate me much more than I deserve. I am anxious to learn who you are, and how you know so much about me. Anyway, thank you for those kind words.

To all, I have to go to a meeting for a few hours, then will pick this up again with more.

Frank, welcome to the forum!!!

It is a bunch of [censored] what they have done with the fry.

Talk about transparency! Cant fault the man for explaining the entire process. Personally I don't see the big deal now that I have read over everything. If we don't take chances every once in a while we may never know the true potential of growing bass. It would be one thing if the entire sal program was being used to stock Jalisco, but a few thousand fry? guys need to calm down and realize its a risk that could potentially bring a wealth of knowledge and insight into the program

I have wondered about this myself. I also wonder how many of the SAL fry released into public waters actually survive predation from other fish. We will never know the answer to that but if its a small percentage then it defeats the purpose.

Gary,
Thank you very much for the transparency!!! I truly have no problems with you or what you are trying to accomplish.
I was also curious as to the details of donating a SAL from the angler. Im glad fkirk joined in the discussion to enlighten us on his experience. Im also disappointed as he is that he was not notified after the SAL program changed their agreement and did not notify him first to get his approval. He did in fact catch the SAL and donated it to the program with the understanding what the future plans for the fish and her offspring would be. SAL program owes some more explanation on this matter.
I do continue to have a problem with TP&W and how THEY choose to spend our tax dollars. Im all for continued research for growing bigger LMB. Unfortunately, I do not believe we as taxpayers should allow the State to contract with private individuals who may eventually benefit from this. You and I both know that you cannot duplicate what you are doing with private waters in a public water system. So why the research in a private system? Genetics is the key. Unfortunately, Texas needs to remove ALL LMB and start over to get bigger LMB and possibly a world record. Once Native LMB genetics are removed, then they will see the results. We also know this will never be done. The other option, is a new lake in a fertile land area stocked with pure Florida or better yet, California LMB. Give it an off limits of ten years, then limited fishing pressure. Texas has had such a long term success in growing 13 lb+ fish, that now they believe it is not good enough. Come fish with me in Oklahoma some time. You will truly appreciate what Texas has to offer! I fished lakes in South Texas for 13 years and it was amazing! Even I got spoiled on Falcon and got disgusted catching an 8-9 lb fish. I always wanted a 10 lb+ or it wasn't good enough. Fish in south Texas grow very quickly in the warm climate. They also die prematurely. Here again, genetics is the key. They need a LMB with superior growth genetics which also has a longer lifespan genetic potential. Also, the climates in North Texas and South Texas are very different. The same genetic makeup will not work in both places.
I wish you the best in your journey!

La Perla boss man, what confuses me is what do you get out of this? It seems like a losing situation for you in my opinion. Sure you get some baby bass but whoopty doo, you are missing out on a lot of money from potential clients. I just don't see why you would have agreed to this partnership. 15 years is an awfully long time to be a lab rat.

Hey Man... can someone send me the Cliff Notes? thanks

Talk about sore behind...

If you didn't want the fish used for scientific purposes you never should have turned it in to start with. Get over it.

So he should be ok with a broken contract?

He was okay with 1% for studies.

Gary,

Do you know if TP&W has plans to donate any of the fingerling produced from the fish in Jalisco to other bodies of water? I realize that it would create stress on the fish during transport so I may have answered my own question. You do not have to answer publicly. I was just wondering. Good luck and continue to fight the good fight!!

Thanks,

Shawn M.

I am sure he turned it in for the free mount, regardless of what would happen with the fish. Not one user on this thread can honestly say they would turn away the SAL program if they agreed to these terms. This research will one day benefit the entire state of Texas on either how to or how not grow world class LargeMouths. If it works it will be remarkable for fisherman across the state, if not TP&W will try the next plan on the list. Just give the man time to work and hope for the best. Thank you Dr. for dedicating your time and efforts

On the topic of state wildlife resources, I wonder how many on the forum realize the number pf private landowners that have permits to take threadfin shad out of public lakes. The particular operation with which I am very familiar occurred at Fairfield. On almost a daily basis during the shad spawn, threadfin shad were removed by the truckload (literally) and transported to a private ranch in East Texas. I never understood why this was permitted, though the owners were well connected. I never complained about the fishing though, which was amazing. Several folks now have these permits, but good luck to you if you decide you want one!

Cliff's Notes:

TP&WD Owns the fish (whether stocked by TP&WD or not?). TP&WD CAN (at their discretion) repatriate all the fish when the study is over.

I won't get into my opinions, but that little fact was interesting to me...

Honestly, none of this concerns me. I'll hook up my 17 year old Nitro to my 8 year old Navigator and go fish Fork because that's my love, my heart, often my salvation.......

Gary and his family seem to be great folks with huge contributions in whitetail management. I've been a huge fan from watching "The bucks of Tecomate" and used those lessons to greatly improve several leases over the years...... I'm sure his bass experiments will be equally informative and his results will be shared openly with the public...... if he happens to eventually make money, well that's fine too. It's the American way.

To those of you displaying shock that a State Government agency could be up to some shenanigans, I am at a loss. I work for the State, and shenanigans is our middle name! The Federal Government's middle name is "GD MFing shenanigans"........ true story.

Good luck Doc!!

I think everyone is getting a little worked up over nothing. Life is to short to dig into all the fine print of the Sal mission. It seems that there is a research aspect to it. If this fall's into it so be it. Some are also worked up because the recipient of these has done well and has some good propery that he charges a big fee to access. That's the way it works. The reality is if they want control lakes, etc for their research I don't know how else they are suppose to do it short of building their own. I assume they are looking for lakes with certain characteristics, depth, climate, size etc. I assume that they aren't interested in stocking some farm pond that goes dry every 5 years and they need to be able to control certain factors. That means a private lake. In addition that need to find a landowner that is willing to participate, with a suitable lake, and willing to provide them access when they want. Could there be a buddy deal, maybe. Could somebody get a hunt from time to time, who knows and I could really care less. The program gets another research place, the owner gets high quality stocking, it is what it is.

After hearing the stipulations the SAL folks have put on the "experiment" I have to change my position. I like others felt that the lake would be fished and fished for a fee. The fact that they agreed to this "no fishing" commercial or other quite frankly surprises me. Not believing that anything learned will be transferable to a major lake still makes me wonder about the use the state can put this to but hopefully some genetic ground can be broken. Will a 20lb. fish be grown, I doubt it and wonder if a fish from an experiment like this would be counted as a record anyway. Again hope some good data is gathered in the next 15 years.

I have a moon rock I bought at the mall in the 70's.

Not tryin to be tooo picky, but "Harrel" (not "Harold") Arms was a very long time very good friend, mentor and customer of mine. I and many others miss him dearly. Along with a few others no longer with us, he was a true pioneer in the field of sport fisheries on private waters.

A great man in many ways......especially to those that knew him.

Now THIS is one of the funniest things I've seen on here in a long time!

They do. And.....yall are all saying and especially asking, the wrong things......You need help.

See if you can find out this about SAL....."How many genetically marked specimens that are offspring of SAL fish have been recovered from the places where they were stocked?"

Once you got that answer, "How many of these genetically marked fingerlings stocked into this cleanly prepared lake will be recovered?"

Now I'm not gonna say nuthin' bad about TP&WD, SAL, La Perla Ranch, Camelot Bell or anything else. My friends and cohorts work at and for these places. I will, however, help see that the proper questions get asked and hopefully researched. I can give the answers, but finding them on your own gives them a lot more meaning.

Nobody has more trouble with government impropriety than I do. Although rife in TP&WD for the 30+ years I've worked as a biologist, I don't see it in this project.

Folks that have a problem with the state using publicly funded resources for private profit can certainly find a lot more egregious cases than this non-issue. If you need help figuring where to start, I can do that as well....

GOOD QUESTION!!!!

There is an answer, not sure if it has ever been made public.

"stress during transport"......

I had transported by Arkansas fish hauler truck, 250,000 1-2 inch bass fingerlings to Phoenix, AZ a few years back with almost 100% in good condition, not just "survival." You catch a bass around Phoenix, it came from Texas.

Bass fingerlings are shipped by air cargo almost daily, if they were going to stress and die, they would not be shipped. Not an issue with modern equipment and techniques.

What a true statement. For example right here in our county we have a rancher whose daughter is married to a US Congressman. Five years ago they built a 100 acre "flood control" lake on his place, with yours and mine tax dollars. Trust me flood control lakes and Shackleford County are oxymorons. The lake is still dry.
So don't sweat a few fish, la Perla built their own lakes, and spent their own money on this stuff. If anyone thinks Gary is the only guy that has ever gotten free fish from TPWD they are way wrong. At least he has a goal for these fish and is will to work with the state. If he can get results for raising big bass like he has big deer it will be good for the state. This deal makes sense in the fact that TPWD can't raise a 20 pounder in a tank and can't possibly raise one in an uncontrolled large lake. Finding a good steward that has a lake big enough is key to any chance for success. Gary is the right person, he not only has built a perfect test lake but is willing to foot the bill for the state. It doesn't matter what he does with it after his agreement period but I'll bet he continues to work with them.
Just go to a TPWD meeting and listen to a commissioner( I.e., rich guy with a ranch and a buddy that is governor) and you will see.

Hey Horseplay thanks. I too feel very bad for the angler that caught the fish that contributed to the fry I am caring for, because I feel he is now a part of me. It breaks my heart that he is disenchanted enough that he wants to send the mount back, but I do know this...

1.There is nothing "smelly" about what happened between me and TPWD.

2. Allen Forshage is one of the most dedicated, by the book men I have ever met. I mean, think about this: I called him immediately on December 2013 when we shocked up the fish James Hall from Bassmasters named Pearl, a 13:15 fish only 7 yrs old. I wanted to donate her to SAL. She would have been bigger and younger than all of the SAL fish that were eventually donated for 2014 at the program, and bigger than the fish that eventually sent a small percent of her offspring to Jalisco. I would have been entitled to way more than 7000 of Pearl's fry back to my lakes, TPWD would have had no contract tie in to my new and best lake for 15 years. Also, 50% of her fry would have gone on to other public or private waters somewhere in the state to benefit you bass fishermen out there. Heck, at the time, there weren't even any lunkers that had been donated yet. It seemed like a slam
dunk deal, but for one problem...Allan's commitment to following the rules.

Allen asked us one question: was she legally caught by a rod and reel fisherman, because that is the way the rules are written. Allen refused to break them, even though I legally owned the fish myself and had the authority to remove her from my water any way I wanted to and send her wherever I desired.

I don't denigrate the sacrifice and contribution of any SAL Donor, but simply want to point out that the commitment of Allen Forshage to follow the rules is really steadfast. None of us could believe it, but were all very impressed, especially James Hall from Bassmasters, who heard the whole conversation take place right there in the shocker boat with Pearl in the big live well.

As Pearl slipped back into the green waters of La Perla, I thought about how often rules are written that aren't complete enough, and have unintended consequences such as happened here. Obviously, shocking can't be allowed on a public body of water, hence the rule. I guess at the time, the rule writers could not imagine some guy with his own private lake and giant fish might want to donate it, and that the quickest and least traumatic way to do it would be to shock her up!

Oh well, what might have been, but for the rules!

Horseplay, the very scenario you dream about describes what is happening at Jalisco, where there are no Northern genetics to dilute the Pure Florida gene we introduced. As the fish grow and multiply in the nutrient rich South Texas waters, one day a big rain will come, fill it up, and overflow. The waters of Jalisco flow out for 3-5 days when that happens, eventually making their way on down to Arroyo Salada, and then the waters dump in to the Rio Grande, only a few miles away. The wood storks come in droves, picking at the fingerling fish fry that always go out as the waters escape. It is natures way.

The next time that happens, the fish escaping won't be just Bluegill, shad, and fathead minnows, but pure Floridas from SAL, and the storks don't get them all. Just down river lies Falcon. And so, in this way, as the years go by, over and over again, super genetics from this project will continue to supplement Falcon. Later, as the Jalisco population grows and enlarges, some of the fish will be removed and taken to benefit another fishery. It might be a giant that goes to SAL, or it might be a bunch of young two pounders that need thinning out. My agreement does not cover every possible detail, only who is in charge for how long. Anything else would require too many lawyers and pages. At some point in most relationships, it is not about the contract, but about trust.

I don't know where, when, by what method, or how many fish will be taken from my private waters to go somewhere else, but I do trust the man who will be making that decision, and I know that it will be fair to me, and good for Texas, as long as Allan Forshage is there, or someone just like him.

Fkirk, if you are the guy who caught the fish, please hold off until you learn more and see what you have become a part of. I invite you to contact me, and to come see it for yourself. Please do that first before you make your final decision. What you did was an awesome thing. That contribution has not been tarnished, and I think you will agree in time.
Gary

Betcha dollars to donuts there is more to that "must be caught by hook and line" rule than just an arbitrary rule......

There is HUGE evidence based in solid research on many species, including specifically LMB that "catchability" (or lack thereof) is an inherited trait. I could go deeply into this a it has been an area of research of mine for over 30 years. Suffice it to say that catchability (by any gear) can be bred into or out of a strain of fish, and has been.

Start selecting for fish that were not caught by H&L and you may, likely will, decrease catchability. A lake full of 16 pounders does no good if they are impossible to catch except by shocker....and yes, they can be both bred and/or trained to resist being caught that way as well. Once you try all the other methods of catching fish besides H&L, seine net, gill net, trammel net, fyke net, wing net, hoop net, fish shocker, slat trap, jar trap, cloverleaf trap, etc. you will find that "its still fishing."

Words of a true gentleman and pioneer!

Oh and I got a soft spot in my heart for oral surgeons....It was one of those, after a dentist, endodontist, family doctor, among others failed to make a diagnosis for my problem. The oral surgeon nailed it from the get go.....he couldn't help otherwise, but just knowing what was wrong was a big first step. It was "trigeminal neuralgia" try looking that one up if you need some horrifying. Oh the neurosurgeon cured me in 2001, but that could not have happened without the oral surgeon pointing me in the correct direction.

Boy, The TFF is loaded with negative and miserable people. Why so much hate?

Narrow minds, unable to think outside the box for themselves, just my guess?

Gary, PM sent. You'll find it behind that flashing envelope at the top of the page.

Doc, in all your years with fish and deer throughout the industry in Texas, have you ever witnessed any rules violation or law violation or special favor given due to ones political position, TPWD, family connections, or financial contributions?

There seem to be a lot of people on here that are wary and distrustful of the government and all the money that flies around especially dealing with public and private property.

I agree with you. I think this is a win-win for the state. The SAL program will learn a bunch. If they are able to remove fry and place elsewhere, then this could be a great investment for all of us!

However, from Gary's perspective isn't this like a plastic surgeon working on your young wife, but you have to agree only the surgeon can play with her for 15 years, then you get her back when you're 75 maybe with or without the modifications? It is good for the surgeon though!

Maybe not so bad, because Gary can still play with her when the surgeon does and he already has another girlfriend (La Perla).

I am gonna toss in my 12 cents worth here.
I went and read one of the articles, have read all the posts on here and one thing I see missing in most is NO BODY CAN FISH THIS LAKE FOR 15 YRS. so if this is just a study and some of the fry come back to public lakes (is my understanding) then wth is everyones problem with trying to improve our fisheries?

for mr. kirk to give back the mount and be pizzed at sal is ridiculous imo, they took 7000 fry from how many that hatched (he said 150,000) which is a minuscule amount and while they went to a private lake again NO ONE CAN FISH IT. so how is this a problem if it is simply for research?

I moved to fork in jan. and have only managed to catch 2 overs, neither were really all that fat either. like the rest of you I am after BIG fish and that is what I concentrate on so I see this as a positive if in the future public lakes benefit from the study of this private lake.
my personal best came from a private lake in oklahoma and would have been a state record but was not eligible due to being from private waters, this did not diminish my thrill of catching a 14.8 as it is still my pb and gave me a new goal to break this weight. hopefully I manage to do this on fork, maybe some of you will be able to in the future due to the information gathered from this.

back to lurking on this thread but dam man to get upset over 7000 fry being sent to a private lake for a study and no one being able to fish them out is pretty lame in my opinion.

FYI I was messaged that Frank Kirk really posted that, so appears legit. thanks.

The contract looks to me like all the Doc has to do is give TPWD a 24(maybe 48 I can't recall) hour notice before fishing the lake and they can fish whenever they feel the need. Not really any point to that but there seems to be a lot of that on this one.

I'm guessing Mr Kirk is upset because he feels that his contract With SAL program was broken. He agreed to 1% of HIS fry to be donated to "Research"

Think of it this way...If you had donated $150,000 to Purchase Fish to be put in lakes across the state and your contract stated that they could take 1% of that donation ($1500) for research, and instead of taking $1500, they took $7404.00 for "research", wouldn't you be upset??? It was a contract...

was referring to fish stocked by Arms Bait Co at Camelot

I'd be interested to hear if the contract said "1% of Frank Kirks SAL fry can be used for research," or "1% of all SAL fry can be used for research"

The only post that makes sense to me. We will never be able to fish it, this is for research and IF it makes our great state a better fishery - go for it,

This is ridiculous. First off I'll bet Mr.Kirk didn't read one bit of the "contract". He caught a giant fish and called TPWD as fast as possible to get his name in the books and get his free mount.
Also I donate a lot of stuff and no matter how mad I got I could never un-donate it. Once donated it is the receiving parties property.
As far as La Perla lakes, get over it. Maybe this guy will unlock the last secret to growing 20lb bass here in Texas in our warm waters. Maybe he will discover that the prawns he is stocking will the do job and the state can start stocking giant prawns in our lakes and they will reproduce naturally and the SAL program will have to be bumped up from 13lbs to 16lbs because 13lbers will be commonplace. I do know this though, with maybe the exception of the early space program almost every major breakthrough has been at a university or a privately funded lab. I think Mr. Schwartz has as good or better a chance of accomplishing the goal as TPWD.
I now am deleting this silly thread and waiting to hear progress reports on just how giant he can raise a bass.

Not that I care. I think TPWD should do pretty much whatever they want with the fry if they think they can learn something to help fishing in the state of Texas

I don't disagree, but they should change their contract to say that. We need to remember that contributing to the SAL program is an option.

or perhaps grown men should not act like selfish little children over a stupid fish


that Kirk dude is a little worked up over something he can't control, what he can control is mishandling a huge fish and hoisting that beautiful fish around by her lower jaw in his release video

Does any one have a copy of this contract that Kirk signed?

That is an interesting question. It looks like only 2 of the sharelunkers caught this year actually spawned...

From the sharelunker facebook pg:

"Two fish spawned. 552, Randall Claybourne's fish from Lake Fork, spawned once and produced 26,015 fry. 553, Frank Kirk's fish from lake Athens, spawned three times and produced 117,425 fry. Fingerlings will be shared out among all the lakes producing entries this past season."
A total of 143,440

Dr. Schwartz, please don't let the naysayers get under your skin. I believe, after reading your later posts, that you aren't going to...I'm just hoping that another member encouraging you will help you to continue to update us all on the progress of the program. I've had a tremendous amount of respect for you, ever since your tecomate development changed whitetail hunting. So keep your head up, don't get discouraged, and best of luck I look forward to seeing the progress

As for the guys who continue to spout off your opinions of a "rich man" getting his way with everything...grow the heck up! If you don't like the way the SAL program has handled this, being nasty about it on TFF isn't going to change a darn thing. And if you want more fry stocked into your local/favorite lake, then open up that wallet and pay SAL a big fee. I mean that's all it takes, right? Based on your comments. So buck up and send in a donation and tell them where you want the fish released people amuse me

They did the same thing to Marine Creek Lake... All those got eaten by the bank beaters before their first year! I think a private water does more good (on the research side) than public. Don't agree with how it was done... but... I'm just a peon in this crazy world.

Clarification: Over the 28-year history of the ShareLunker program, approximately 1% of the more than 1 million fingerlings produced have been used for research. Some were stocked into private lakes, some into public lakes. In many years no fingerlings are used for research.
Clarification: The agreement anglers sign when donating a fish to the ShareLunker program DOES NOT address what use will be made of the fingerlings, only of the fish itself. Anglers are given two options, A and B. The language in the agreement spelling out those options is as follows:
"A. TPWD will return the fish to me within a reasonable time after genetic identification, spawning and/or conclusion of the (season date) Toyota ShareLunker Program.
B. TPWD can keep the fish for use as a brood fish or any other needs. If the fish dies it will not be returned."
As for the fingerlings, item 7 in the agreement reads:
"I further agree and understand that the progenies of the Fish, if any, are property of the TPWD."

Well there you go guys and it only took 9 pages of discussion to clear up what most of us already knew lol. Thanks but im sure the naysayers will still try and spin it.

Thanks for the clarification! I don't see how anybody could not approve of this project. Especially with the transparency. Good luck to everyone involved.

Can some one post cliff notes so I don't have to read a Novel?

Just going to do a little Aggie math here. I understand you used the words more and approximate, so this is all an estimation. 1% of 1 millon is 10,000. So in this case, 7,404 constitutes an overwhelming majority of the fingerlings used for research. By this estimation, only about 2,500 of the fingerlings have been used for other research projects in the other 27 years of the program's history (100 of the fingerlings this year died in transport).

What's surprising to me is that there were only two pure Floridas entered into the program this year, which is significantly less than the 2009-2011 years (from the data that is available in the SAL archives), yet 143,000 or so fry were produced. That's over 14% of the number produced in the 28 year span. I guess this was an exceptional year in terms of production when compared with previous years. I need to brush up on my SAL history; have the pure Floridas donated to TPWD been spawned over the course of the entire 28 years?

This post is so done........

Wise words right there.....

Anyone that has read anything I have ever posted knows I am a fan of the SAL program for many reasons. And I have never donated a fish to the program. Whether you guys realize it or not, a HUGE part of the reason we Texans enjoy the quality of bass fishing in this great state is due to the SAL program. The genes from the pure Floridas stocked back into any lake will ultimately help the fishery produce bigger fish faster. Doesn't matter if the lake ever produces a state record or not! It is a well known fact that Florida bass grow bigger than native Texas bass.

Agree or not, the facts are the facts.

Gary,

This may have been mentioned earlier or you may have considered this yourself already, but....I would suggest creating a program where a few lucky anglers can fish your lakes each year for no cost. You are now connected to the Texas fishing public for 15 years and this sort of gesture will help maintain a positive image. You own the lake and signed the contract, just a suggestion.

No doubt criglizard. I had already planned on doing this, but did not want to bring it up during the firestorm and have it look like insincere damage control. Now that this thing is turning around, and now that YOU brought it up, the answer is yes, I am going to come up with something. Allan will have to decide on Jalisco, as he controls fishing chances there, but I would be in favor of including a few lucky no pay fishermen on Jalisco when it is appropriate and if The State agrees, as well as on my La Perla Lake. Jalisco will be a while getting there, but LP is ready for the coming year to plug this in.

I am thinking to include 2 fishermen from each of two groups. First, the One who donates the top SAL bass each year, plus one from a drawing of the rest of the SAL donor fish. Then, two other fishermen who win the spots from a random draw. All I would require is that they write about their trips on the Forum.

What are your suggestions??
Gary

I think that all sounds good and makes sense. Reward the SAL guys for participating with that program. Talk about an extra incentive to turn a fish in...the chance to fish your lakes. The odds are good too with 20 or so SAL per year.

Possibly try to bring a kid or two into the mix, although you will spoil them for life with that lake.

It's exciting to think about what your lakes will do over the coming years. Your research will likely contribute to bass fishing forever, worldwide.

Loving this thread!

I built a 10 acre lake on my property about 5 years ago. I enlarged it to 13 acres last summer. So, I can appreciate the amount of time and money that go into building a lake. If I could afford to purchase the land and build a 100 acre lake, I would do it in a heartbeat. It's absolutely awesome to walk out of my backdoor and be fishing in one minute. I'm in the "pro" project crowd and wish you well.

One suggestion: I think I read in one of the posts that you haven't sold any trips to La Perla yet. You might consider reducing the cost to fish as a Grand Opening strategy. Once people experience the lake, and word of mouth spreads, you can increase the costs so you land somewhere on the supply/demand curve that works for your situation.

Nah...the horse is still breathing

Gary:
I have been on your website, and soaking up the info you have posted on La Perla and the photo's. I know we are all chomping on the bit, and waiting for these SAL babies to grow up, but can you talk more about the thoughts behind designing these lakes. I have followed a similar thread and think it's fascinating about all the work it takes to get a lake from dry ground to ready for LMB. Did you have a ratio of open water, structure, shoreline? How long did you have shad / blue gill / prawns growing before you stocked bass? How old is La Perla lake? I have so many more questions out of fascination, but i will hold them back for now.

Thanks for posting.

I'd rather see my tax dollars going to this than bringing illegals to the US

All great questions. Want to answer them all. Maybe I need to start a new thread more specific to topics of interest, like, the building of Jalisco???

I rarely venture up here to this section even though I fish for bass 99% of the time. Mainly because I have no time or desire to read all the bickering that goes on up here. I have however spent my Friday evening evening reading this entire thread.

To the gentleman owning LA Perla. Sir don't let the few negative posts discourage you. After reading all this and your openness about your work I commend you sir. I hope your efforts take Texas bass fishing to the next level. It appears to me you are very sincere in your efforts. And I wish you nothing but the best. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on any of this. I'm just an average guy who loves to fish for bass. Texans are very fortunate to have the fisheries we do. Be it Fork, Falcon, Amistad or where ever. There's a reason why people flock to Texas every year to fish for bass. It's because of the efforts of TPWD & the SAL program. And I believe you will just make it better with your hard work and dedication to grow this sport that we all love. Keep up the good work sir. Best of luck to you. May God bless you with many many more years so you can see the fruits of your labor.

^^^^This guy nailed it

[quote=sdavis24][quote=mpowell]


From a scientific point, there's no way TPWD could match your investment to get the research that will come. Kudos to you.

TPWD has precedence in private partnerships — look at the technical assistance game biologists provide to land owners. They help properties manage the game better.

I see potential for maybe the ranch could produce surplus fingerlings to be restocked in other waters to grow opportunities someday. That helps us all.

Also, as a financial analyst, it is highly unlikely this is a positive NPV project for Dr. Schwarz. Considering the upfront capital, 15 years worth of mgmt. expenses, and the opportunity costs of passing on making this commercial from the start.

Furthermore, when you start discounting cash flows 15-20 years out (especially considering how few fishing days per year he allows on his other lakes), if this lake isn't spitting 20+lb bass out left and right, it is certainly a losing venture. He is taking one for the "team" on this one.

If it does turn out to be incredible, then we probably gained infinitely more knowledge than the value of a few thousand fingerlings. Obviously, Dr. Schwarz didn't do this to make money, he did it because of his passion. For that I am very grateful, and can't wait to see how this turns out.

His desire to share all this with us here is also incredible/unprecedented, and certainly doesn't deserve any grief. If he does a fraction for bass fishing what he did for TX deer hunting we're very lucky.

No doubt Randy. Having enough Bass will be the least of our problems. There will need to be a lot of culling done, and these aren't the kind you eat! They will need homes......

Thanks!!

Even though I most likely will never fish either of your lakes, I gotta say I love what your doing. Also would like add that every successful person I know of has had haters. The more haters the more success usually. The only thing i cant get past is if TPWD is using you lake for a test bed why not open lake x to the public. Even make it a pay lake like some of the lakes in California to recoup some funds. I wouldn't make it there either just thinking out loud. Keep up the work even if you don't get a record out of the deal the bigger bass, genetics and food study will be valuable to Texas fisheries.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/fiel...=SOC&dom=fb

I hope the fish that are culled out of Jalisco go to Choke Canyon, Falcon, Lake Corpus Christi, or Amistad.

I know of a SAL from Fork a few years ago that was not caught with a rod and reel and they admitted her to the program anyway. Friend of mine turned her in.

Dr. Gary Schwarz,
Thank you for all of the deer management research that took such a long time to develop, starting with Al Brothers and Murphy Ray and so far carried on by you and David. I subscribe to all of it! It has resulted in some impressive bucks in the North Texas area where I hunt and a 162 1/2 BC for me this past year in Jack County. Most all hunters I know want big bucks or nothing at all.
Now, your research into big bass.
I have no doubt that your quest to grow better and better bass will have positive results. I've always said if you want something done right, let private enterprise do it and it will happen. While your group is experiencing a "push back" right now, the end results will change everyones opinion.
Good luck and hope to meet you sometimes.

I just read this thread over lunch. WOW. There is some awesome information in here. I feel fortunate to have stumbled across it. Has anyone heard anything from La Perla in the last couple years? Did we scare Dr. Schwarz off?

They had a bass get entered into the share a lunker program last year and it died from the "all of a sudden every bass dies of a broken jaw" syndrome. Haven't heard from them since.


I think they are only 1 or 2 lakes here that have a chance at the state record.

I didn't realize this thread was that old already.

Dang, I was hoping there was an actual update from the ranch.

If the state embarrassed me the way they got punched in the mouth, I wouldn't come back either.