15% Ethanol is Coming!!!!

My work brought me to a large POL storage plant this past week and I was shocked to hear that its not an if on us being forced to use 15% ethanol fuel, its a when and the when appears to be approaching very soon, 2014 to be exact. The guy I was speaking with made it very clear that huge organizations are lobbying against it , mostly from the recreational angle but that the Govt just doesnt care. Everything 2 Cycle that we use in our day to day lives will be flat screwed! I have been saying for a while, theres no way they can do it, well guess what......they are doing it.

I was also amuzed by his explanation of how much more dangerous ethanol is to store and handle in comparison to the 1.5 million gallons of ptroleum products that they store. And even better yet was his explanation of how ethanol reduces the Carbon Monoxide from our exhaust, but in turn emits 4 more toxic chemicals that are way worse than Carbon Monoxide in our environment. They also have run comprehensive test on the 15% ethanol fuel and that performance from an economic perspective is about 27% less than with regular unleaded fuel! Genius I tell you, the idea that Iowa imported more corn than it grew in an attempt to make ethanol is also genius. Man WTF is wrong with our Govt?????????

STUPE

Brought to you by a continuing big govt subsidy. Feel sorry for those folks starving overseas that would like to have the grain for human consumption rather than to deliver on some politician's agenda.

First of all, I hate enthanol.
that being said why wont a two cycle engine run on it ??

I understand it is lowerBTU's, a waste of good corn ,but why will a t-stroke not run ??

This is the jist of it

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/ethanol_gasohol_2_cycle_problems.htm

Yes, the corn growers of America are getting rich. Just shows how lobbyists are running the country.

10% Etanol and 10% poorer vehicle mileage. Where's the math to support this?

Ethanol is one of the biggest scams out there!

I cant even imagine the economic reprocussions on the sales and ownership of lawnmowers,chainsaws,weed whackers, all kinds of small engines, to include our OUTBOARDS, etc......

Maybe that is the end game, a sick backasswards way of 'stimulating' the economy, gotta replace all those things every few years.....

Cub,
Your title is correct that 15% ethanol is coming, but your conclusions are not accurate.....

Show us one single city, state or federal law "forcing" or mandating 15% ethanol use in any 2-cycle engine.
It is simply an optional blend, being allowed to be sold, but its' use is specifically restricted and will be clearly labeled for no introduction in 2 cycle and other engines not designed for it.

Yes, 10% ethanol use has been mandated by Congress, the EPA and by state goverments, but 15% ethanol use has not been mandated in 2014 nor any date by anyone or forced on us to use as you say.

Repost from 2 weeks ago.

House Committee action on bill to require EPA to seek independent scientific analysis on the effects of 15 percent ethanol Take Action!
Urge your Representative to support today!
On February 7, 2012, the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology will vote on H.R. 3199, introduced by Representative Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) on October 14, 2011. This bill would require the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to seek independent scientific analysis on the effects of 15 percent ethanol blend (E15) gasoline.
"The EPA's decision to allow E15 into the marketplace will impact every American who owns a car, lawnmower or boat," Sensenbrenner said. Automakers insist that using E15 will void warranties, lower fuel efficiency and cause premature engine failure. In off-road engines, the effects can even be dangerous for users.
"There are serious concerns that the EPA used only one Department of Energy test and rushed E15's introduction into the marketplace," Sensenbrenner said. "This test was limited in scope and ignored a plethora of evidence – albeit inconvenient evidence for the EPA – that shows E15 gasoline has a negative effect on engines."
The new E15 gasoline formulation may appear at a fueling station near you and you need to be careful where you use this new fuel blend. That is because the EPA, in October 2010, approved E15 for use in model year 2007 and newer light duty vehicles (cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles). In January 2011, it added model year 2001-2006 light duty vehicles to the approved list.

As long as we have a Republican congress, this will not be forced on us IMO. Also, still know of stations selling ethanol free gas. Don't think that will necessarily go away.

The subsidy went away on 01-01-2012. Corn growers do not get a penny for growing corn for ethonol production.

Corn-based ethanol is a controversial fuel in its own right, and a longstanding federal subsidy for blending the biofuel with gasoline has been an additional source of consternation over the last 30 years. According to The Detroit News, Congress has wrapped up its work for 2011 without extending the incentive, a move that's drawn praise from environmental groups and taxpayer advocates.

Hand-in-hand with the discontinuation of the tax subsidy, an import tariff on ethanol imported from Brazil has also been cancelled, which opens the tap for a source of ethanol that doesn't have the reputation of being a dirty diversion of a food crop that corn-based ethanol carries. That means that while the blenders' tax credit is no more, the 2007 legislation calling for a significant increase in the use of renewable fuels is likely not going anywhere if the abundant ethanol produced from Brazil's sugarcane economy can be used instead.

The corn lobby is naturally not thrilled with the news, but it has put on a brave face. Tom Buis of Growth Energy, a group that supports and fosters the cause of domestic ethanol production, tells the DetNews, "without the tax credit, the ethanol industry will survive; it will continue to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, create jobs, and strengthen our economy." That statement isn't exactly at odds with the actions of Congress, since there's now about $6 billion per year that could be plowed into further renewable fuel research and development that would ensure corn ethanol is indeed a stepping stone fuel, as it was sold in the first place.

Oct 2010: EPA is under a rural-state-promoted congressional mandate to increase ethanol use. Congress required fuel refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels, mostly ethanol, into auto fuel by 2022 and the EPA says it can't be done without allowing at least an E-15 blend. EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson said Wednesday's action was "the first of a number of actions that are needed from federal, state and industry toward commercialization of E-15 gasoline blends."

Use in motor vehicles newer than 2001 approved Jan 2011, against lobbying by the auto industry. E-15 is not approved for use in off road motors (lawnmowers, boat motors etc. at this point. But it sure could do a number on your tow vehicle. Note stations have to request e-15 as it is not broadly distributed now (of course e-10 wasn't in the beginning either, now you can't hardly find non-ethanol mix).

Feb 2012: the growth of E-15 still faces challenges: many states have not changed their laws to allow the higher ethanol blend and the program is voluntary. Buis told HAT it will really depend on fuel makers to choose whether to increase the blend or not, “Now it is up to the retailers and individual fuel companies to register for approval to sell E-15. With ethanol selling an average of 76 cents a gallon cheaper than gasoline and $4 a gallon gasoline on the horizon, we’d encourage all Americans to ask their local filling station how soon they will see more-affordable E15.”

Likely at some point the RFA (renweable Fuels Association, aka: We don't give a flip about what it does to your motors) will push to put it in all motors 'cause they sure aren't lisening to the manufacturers of motor vehicle engines

I hear ya man,I don't work in the oil business, but I can assure you that the man who spoke these words does. He made it very clear that it is coming and I didn't pull 2014 out of my butt! And he also explained to me that every gas station within 100 miles of San Antonio was going to get whatever they mixed there was not going to be 10% and 15%, it would all be 15%, the only variable would be the specific additive each brand gets added when the tanker fills up depending on where it was going. This is scary stuff, especially when I have been saying it won't/cant happen!

Since E-15 has not been mandated by any federal, state or local goverment, only the market will determine its availability.

If the gasoline market wants a continuation and availability of E-10, then the refineries producing the needed special mixes of raw gas and the ethanol suppliers and the distributors including your friend's competitors will certainly provide it.

Refineries do not make E-10 or E-15. It cannot be pipelined at this time. The ethonol is added at the jobber tank farm. That is who makes the money on ethonol gasoline. They get the tax break.

To make an existing pipeline capable of transporting ethonol fuels would be cost prohibited. All the gaskets, seals and elastomers would have to be changed in all pumps, valves, meters, tank roof seals and any equipment that would contact the fuel. Even the steel that pipelines are made from would have to be engineered to reduce stress corrosion. Plus what do you do with the transmix? That would have to be dispoded of and that is expensive.

Thats exactly correct, I was looking at a 100,000 gallon ethanol tank and it is completely seperate from the regular gasoline storage tanks. It gets mixed in at the tank farm when the fuel gets dumped into the individual delivery tanker. From an emergency responder/Haz-Mat perspective its the biggest concern in a large scale fire,explosion or spill, simply because its water soluable.

I'm not worried, I only buy 100% gas anyway. It improves my mileage enough that the cost diff is not that great. And even if it did not improve mileage, the price diff is only 7 to 10 cents per gallon. Not worth running ethanol.

And I definitely run it in my Skeeter. I've not used ethanol gas in the boat for several years.

We're all doomed!! Sell your rigs now before yu cant even give em away!! And someone think of the children!!!!

Wish we had that luxury, there isnt a non-ethanol gas station anywhere within 100 miles of San Antonio! I didnt post this thread as a scare tactic or rumor, this guy floored me when he looked me in the face and said the Govt doesnt care what its going to do to my 2 stroke outboard, unless the legislation is changed........its coming!!!!

And don't we all use stabil or other stuff anyway?????

Thats exactly the kind of attitude I have had all along regarding this [censored], it changed this past week.

Stabil isnt going to be enough with 15% ethanol! These EPA bastards dont care what they do to this country as long as they reach and succeed with their agendas!

Ok ok, I get it. But what exactly is your/our plan of action? Write your congressman? Yea...... That'll work. Band together for the cause of saving our motors? I'm with you, we have a team of 2 now. Vote republican? Hey, there's something that would work, but it doesn't do alot to ease my mind of govt control. Anyway, if your not here to scare or complain, what exactly was yur point?

DNC stands for DO NOT CARE about debt, deficit, spending, Constitution, your liberties, your freedoms...Obama appointees in EPA out of control and not accountable.

Common sense would tell you that there will be a choice for a long time just as it was when they introduced the 10 % and still had leaded

Obama's agenda doesn't care about us having a choice. Watch the news!!!!

If it was up to the market place then we wouldn't have nearly the E-10 fuels that we have now.

No doubt that 15% is on the way... the current President isn't the problem and the Republicans won't help... i won't bore you with where the problem stems... BUT, I will say the next big money maker is with the first petroleum engineer who creats a buffering agent to offset ethenal's corrosiveness as well as a BTU additive/increaser (more bang) to offset the loss in combustion power. I don't believe the answer is necessary in liquid form either.

The market doesn't and hasn't dictated any particular fuel in years... the oil companies with gov't regulation has. As earlier stated you can't find non 10% fuel any where in SA. It showed up and we bought it. Eventually the nonblended didn't show up anymore. I personally only bought unblended fuel until it was gone but that did not stop the transformation of the fuel supply here. Those who believe supply and demand controls comodity markets aren't aware of the changes in the last 10 years.

Ethanol in gasoline is a result of payola, otherwise it makes absolutely NO sense.
But, don't look at me, I certainly don't have the answer to how you solve our problems.
Corruption, ignorance, and stupidity is too widespread (out of control).
Fishing is my way of escaping. Sorry

Guess not many of you guys saw the story about 4 brands of outboards being tested on the e15 and not a single outboard finished the study, they ALL blew up! Cub is right, there are no eth. free stations anywheres near San Antonio. Hopefully (and I doubt it will happen) when Obama gets fired somebody with a little common sense will step in.

Again, we can all sit around or gripe or actually go and register to VOTE. Maybe we need to start a post titled "who's registered to take a stand in November". It's that simple. If only those complaining about Obama actually voted in the previous election, there would very likely be much less complaining. More regulations are coming. It won't be long before lead weights are outlawed and the two stroke motor will go the way of the buffalo. E15 is the least of your worries if you are actually worried about issues such as this. Vote! Vote conservative. Republican. Of the two necessaries, the republican is the sportsman's only hope.

i was pulling my 19ft nitro back from conroe and saw a E85 pump and it was 50 cents cheaper a gallon so filled up. got 18.7mpg on the way down there from rockwall and got 13.2 on the way back. used half tank going 215 miles and had to stop and get somemore gas before i got home. was of time and money. dont know why my truck even has that ability to run on it.

Vehicles sold in this part of the country are not equiped to burn E85, or at least they did not used to be.

Well Yamaha no longer makes a two stroke for one and how do you know everyone here didn't vote for anyone other than Obama? we can all vote whoever we want in,but it comes down to our government has to much power in our lives now and whether we vote or not the right person in, they will do what they want to do.

If you read carefully, I said that if only those complaining about Obama were the one who actually voted at all, there would be far less complaining. That statement had nothing to do with the TFF crowd. AND, voting is about the only thing you can do about these issues. But I invite you to ask around. Next time you hear someone complaining about Obama, ask if they even voted. Youll be surprised at how many "no's" you get. No votey= no complaney.

I have the solution! DON'T ADD ETHANOL!

Amen brother. You nailed it!

I built a device to remove ethanol/water from your fuel, what you would you pay have it done per 20 gallons? Remember you'll be loosing approximately 10% of your total volume.

Personally I think $5 per 20 gallons would be fair. If it's that good of a system I might just build an hypo-hydroxal stations across DFW.

All the alcohol I can drink and I'm getting paid!

America!

I would buy 20 gallons of fuel and then pay an extra $5 to get the ethanol out and only have 18 gallons every day of the week for my boat. Every day.

LOU is right on this one and I don't believe its going to be as strong as people thinks it is if at all.

You mean you boys don't vote?!!

I voted against him last time and I will again this time. Bad thing is I didn't like McCain and I don't like Romney so once again screwed. I understand about who your comment was really intended for though and you are right.

As far as the Yamaha not making 2 strokes anymore I thought the same thing but they are still making the HPDI motors or at least they are still selling them so I assume they are still being made. From what I read on the motor test, not even the 4 strokes survived the test.


If Cub is right about the 100 mile around San Antonio thing (and I think he is) our area is screwed. As I said earlier there are no gas stations in this area that still carry plain gasoline, it's all e10.

Truthfully, For those if us that live in Texas the presidential vote is really not going to matter whether or not you vote , the states electoral votes always go to the rep candidate. It's those key states that make or break the election every time. I just pray we get the presidency back this year, but my gut tells me were screwed!

They have brand new 2012 HPDI's on 2012 skeeters at Boerne marine, so I don't know how Yamaha quit making 2 strokes

The ethanol is added at the marketing terminals like you state, however you're incorrect that "they" make the money. Domestic refined gas distribution is at lowest levels in a decade with millions of more cars on the road.

Ethanol is not going away. Too much money being made by too many decision makers.

Ethanol may not go away but stores do not have to sell e-15 and no one can make them it is up to each individual store if they want it or not every store could still buy ethanol free if they wanted to.

Refineries do make the raw gas of E-10 providing about 90% of the volume of E-10 blended fuel. They have to know the intended final pump distributed blend and formulate their raw gas diffently for each of the mixes E-10, E-15, E-85 and pure gas. The tax break is no longer true. To indicate that the "ethanol adding jobber" only makes money or profit on production, sale and distribution of our blended gasoline fuels would be quite incorrect.

Our vehicles can't stand it. There goes the price of deer corn again.

They don't have to sell it...YET.

Until they say that older cars can run safely on E15 they won't bar E10 from the gas pumps.

From the looks of this thread they won't sell much of the E15 hence they won't force it on anyone. Logic means using your head. Whomever brought forth this idea that we were going to be forced to use it was the first numbskull.

who could have ever thought we'd be "FORCED" to buy healthcare...there is no logic or common sense in this administration.

Dont sweat it, Obama's most recent energy Bill has GM building cars where the roof is made of solar panels and there are windmills on both rear view mirrors. We dont need more refineries, a strong relationship with Canadian Oil,or more drilling and less EPA regulations, we just need to be more innovative......give me a F*&^ing break!!!!!! Go Solyndra!!!!!!

I wouldnt sweat it, we are destined for $4 + a gallon gas in the next few months and like clockwork the stock market will take a big dump along with our retirement accounts and all this will be just in time for election time, it will be an interesting year for certain.

They claim the previous administration was big oil, yet this administration is big everything. Truly an American shame.

The problem with the Obama Administration is that they flat out lie! He is slick tongued as are his spokespeople and until he stands at the podium during debate time and someone calls BS on him and demands an explanation he will continue to lie as will his people. Just this morning his spokesman Rober Gibbs responded to the high and getting higher gas prices by babbling some nonsense about how the U.S. is at a 8 year high in oil production with a 16% reduction on foreign oil dependance. This is being babbled at the same time that the former CEO from Shell cites the actual oil production figures that we are producing 7 million barrels of oil a day compared to the 10 million barrels a day that was being produced prior to the Obama administration. In the meantime gas is up $1.60 gallon from when Obama took office. Who do you believe??????

The biggest recent devastating lie was the one about WMD. It cured me of voting for THAT party. Yeah, the other one is not much better, but I'm sticking with my plan.
AND, tight lines to all fisherpersons.

Good luck with that Cloud Dancer, I was once a believer in the Democratic party but those days are long gone. The likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are an embarrassment to the Great country we live in. But it is your right to vote to turn the name from the United States of America to the United States of California if you choose to, have at it!!!!

Oh good Lord I can't believe someone fell for that WMD bit. They had them, it's a fact. He gassed his own people with them.

The good people of this country will not allow it to go socialist.

WRONG>>>> The people in this country will allow anything,they voted in a fool ,and will probably re-elect him.....

The only thing they will get up in arms about is if they cut off their computers and phones.
the gov. understands this and they have a free hand because of the STUPIDITY of the public!!!!

Sorry, you are wrong.

Just like ultra low sulpher diesel fuel?

WRONG

I said good people.

the real problem is that 70% of US voting citizens aren't paying attention and could care less.

Yes voter apathy is a major problem. Most complain about the status the country is in yet don't vote or aren't even registered voters.

OT?

Been a Demo. all my life,but not any more but look what I have a chance to vote for.I will vote Rep.but damn.

From the former Sec of Defense commenting a few weeks ago on a question about WMDs and Bush.....

The US, British, ,NATO, Middle East neighbors and UN all thought Iraq had WMDs. Even the %^&* French intelligence who were against invading Iraq thought Saddam had WMD.s Why? Because Saddam himself was telling everyone he had them and was even going to great effort pretending to hide them.

Just cashed my regular quarterly dividend check from Exxon refining operations ....that's about 25 years straight without a single missed dividend payment.

I'll have to start giving away all my oil refinery stocks tomorrow....thanks

WE have some "deal boats" that are 2011's that are equipeed with the VMAX HPDI 2-Stroke engines. Yamaha has ceased production of all 2-Stroke engines with the exception of the 150 and 175 hp versions of the HPDI's. The boat manufactures (Skeeter) may have a few left over 2-stroke engines, but if they are available someone is going to get a great deal on them.

None of the marine engines today were ever engineered for Ethanol fuel with greater than a 10% mixture. There are some good fuel treatments out there to help prevent the side effects of E-15 and greater. I always recommed you run the manufacturer;s recommended aditives. Because of the low octane rating of the E-85 fuel you should never run it in your boat or any other engine (except for those specific cars)period.

Yet all the same material we have in our engines should be ok, right?
Sheesh! What a sham.....blended fule cost less but get less gas mileage....what have we gained? NOTHING!

Luckily up here in Oklahoma we still have alot of places to get ethanol free gasoline. When I was at falcon last month all of the gas stations within a decent distance of falcon heights had ethanol in the fuel. My boat ran like carp. Its amazing how much difference it makes in how it runs. I don't know what the answer is, I vote republican. I don't know about you guys but I'm not real proud of any of them either. The best I can tell both sides are screwing the tax payers to death. If any of those guys were working for a private company they would all be fired for the mess they have created. Not politicians though, just keep going in debt with no accountability. It blows my mind. We need some guys that have actually held real jobs and normal salaries running this country again.

Neither party is working for us. Why should they? They're like most of the other citizens, they work for themselves. A couple of amendments could fix the problem, except they're the ones who would have to do it,........and THAT ain't going to happen.

List of stations that, supposedly, sell ethanol free gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX