SAL Program

After the catch at Falcon and the angler turning it into the SAL Program I have noticed several websites, and several comments in threads that appear to be against this program, and are in some cases "MAD" at the angler for turning it in! Why is that? Having lived in Texas for only 2 years now I thought the SAL Program was a good deal. Why all the disdain for the program? Is there something about it that I don't know that would make me hate it too? Someone share the secret with me please?

To make a long story short about half are for and half are against. I am one of the ones who is against it. For many lakes there is no real upside.

There is also the transportation factor. Several SAL's have died over the years in transit.

I personally, think the fish and the lake are better served being released. That being said, every angler has the right to do as they wish if caught legally.

Some folks think the lake or themselves are getting shortchanged by the fish not being released back into the lake. It is the angler’s business as to what he/she wants to do with the fish. Let it go, eat it, or give it away.

It's mainly public opinion that fish often die in transit (which TPWD takes all the blame for even if nobody asks how the angler held the fish while waiting for pick-up). Almost every fish submitted to the program survives now because of better handling procedures and a more educated public. This wasn’t the case when SAL began.

Also, people don’t like that the lake the fish came out of doesn't get the eggs that particular fish produced. It does get a share of the live fingerlings the program produces and the lunker is returned to the lake after spawning.

I like SAL but it’s getting about time to do some real analysis to see if the program is improving fish quality beyond the effects of Florida strain introduction.

It can be returned to a differant lake if the angler desires. I know of one that was caught at fork and released at grandbury. I kind of like his choose to do that.But I think they have enough of the gene pool now and I wish they would Come up with a program that would encourage anglers to release even smaller pigs in certain lakes . Maybe do a replica for 11#s caught out of north tx lakes after certifed catch and release. The program needs tweeking. IMO

I've read the arguments against the SAL program and I think they make some valid points especially with regards to the reduction of 15+ lb. fish caught since the program started. However, TP&W does give a fiberglass replica to the donating fisherman.

Maybe, if the tackle store owners and/or guides at the lake in which a 13+lber is caught offered to pay for a replica, more would be released back into it's native lake, continue to reproduce in that lake, and have a better chance of becoming a 15 lber.

I can tell you in 2 years in Texas I catch more 10 plus bass per year than I did my 8 years in Florida. Every tourney I fish in Texas several people bag a 10 or better. I have fished 200-500 boat tourney's in Florida and 20 lbs won it with no 10 or betters hitting the scales, not 35 plus pounds to win. 20 won't even get you in the money on some lakes here in Texas, and I am comparing it to Florida fishing lakes like Kissimmee, Toho, walk-in-water, stick marsh 13, Istokpoga and Big O roughly 3 weekends a month. The fishing here is so much better for numbers and big fish in my opinion so someone is doing something right. You guys have it good here!!

The only real successful program in Florida is Hydrilla Lake, where there is no gas engines (used), use to be 2 boats a day picked via a lottery to fish and it is all catch and release, used to cost $150.00 for the boat and two anglers and a third person cost $50.00 extra I believe that is correct I know it was expensive. It is an old phosphate pit outside of Lakeland Florida, and there you could catch 10 over 10 a day and average 6 plus pounds on 50 fish days. That place is a dream and on occasion Bill Dance films there, or so I hear never actually saw him out there so I guess that is just a rumor.. I have no idea how, what, when or if they stock yearly and I want to say the lake is roughly 80 acres, so it is very small..

You make some great points but if it can be improved which I think it can why not try it. No doudt its helped all LMB stockings in tx .

I guess that the people that are not for the SAL program dont remember when there were no Florida strain bass in Texas. The pure blood Floridas were alot more agresive than the native bass in Texas. Now that the blood line has thinned out from cross breeding with the natives, the lakes in Texas are not producing the numbers of giant bass that they once did. We need to introduce some new Florida blood into the mix. I remember when a 10lb bass was very very rare back before Monticelo, and Fork were even lakes. Just my opinion, Brian.

A fish on the wall is over rated IMO. I had a fish mounted one time. It was on the wall for 10+ years until the divorce. My X threw it in the garbage. I never missed the fish or her.

I say take one look at the Texas Top 50 biggest bass list and see how many of them were caught after the programs start in 1986! That should tell you all you need to know!

I know some will say that it has more to do with the Florida genetics more than the program, but guess who is responsible for those Florida genetics and also the breeding of those superior genetics!

I say SAL is a great program and the record book speaks for its self!

well apparently I mispoke. I did some research and Hydrilla Lakes' fishery collapsed and re-opened 4 years later. FWC claims it collapsed because TILAPIA over-ran the lake! Interesting point there I think... Also it is no longer a special opportunity/lottery just $50.00 a day per angler...Hydrilla Lake is on Tenoroc fish management area outside of Lakeland Florida, for those that want to look it up. FYI the best fishing in Florida is in Private Pits, if you go find some and hit them, that is where the big girls are;) Just a tip for that next vacation to Disney World..


Just my opinion but I think SAL is a great program and that if I was going to do something to improve texas fishing it would be the introduction of forage species along with stockings, I would love to see the Golden Shiner in Texas, maybe it is but I haven't seen it and they are really hard to miss. Also control the Tilapia they feed on hatchlings, plants and other things, and most importantly if you see a comorant there should be a law to shoot them on site.. I have seen them destroy lakes and cause e-coli outbreaks due to their spoils. My $0.02 there is a lot of areas that could be focused on and an attempt to promote superior genes through selective breeding would not appear on my top 10 list of things to change..

when it comes to SAL this board gets flooded with ignorance. to many wanna be ichthyologists on here. btw, not bashin to whoever said floridas are more aggressive than naitive, but thats wrong. just proving a point. i have spent a decade working with SAL and a couple decades not. i support it knowing the truth about all the BS. the south anglers hate it because so many did not survive but are now realizing the demise was from their own care in hot livewells and not the fault of tpwd. what are they going to do with a dying fish? there is no magic chemical... theres a few that have stepped up on this forum to educate the ignorant but some dont want to learn and see or appreciate the bigger picture... just my 2 cents.

Fisherman have the choice.
This is not a 'law' to donate the fish.
How can the removal of 'one' big female on Lake Fork,
impact this impoundment? Amistad/Falcon lose more
sharelunkers every week with gill nets than we do here .
What is the 'downside' of the Sharelunker program?
Honestly, I'm ignorant but would like to know.

one thing ill add about a 14 pounder being donated. her genetics are fully back in the lake she came from tenfold and only has 1 or a few spawns, if any, left in her, its like a 14 year old dog...

Often times those that have the most knowledge of big bass support the program. Is it the perfect solution to bigger bass in every lake.... no. Is it possible that it will diminish the chance of that fish growing to a huge state record type weight... yes.

Now, with that being said I still support it. It benefits the overall fishing in the state instead of one angler catching one huge fish. The dying thing is a bunch of nonsence. I think those fish have about as good of a chance in the hands of those guys in Athens as they do with anglers taking a bunch of photos and putting that fish back in the water. The thing is, no one gets the death rate of the fish that got put back into the lakes.

The SAL that I was lucky enough to catch was caught, and turned in 3 times from a lake 7 hours from Athens! If you take care of the fish, it will likely live.

Basically, there are a few downsides to turning in a fish, but I think it is good for fishing in Texas in general.

Pretty quick too bash those not in the know. Theres not one thread in here just outright bashing the program. But David dont you think a little more expanding the goal of the program could be enhanced by a bait program or vegitation in so many of the lakes they have invested the hatch into all these yrs. That how the private guys aprouch it and it seems to work well in priviate impoundments. I think thats all some of us are saying.And some of us that are saying really have know idea if thats a fisable goal. So please enlighten us . Without your insults. Thank you.

Pretty sure a bait and vegitation program would result in a pretty nice increase in fishing license cost and we all know what happens when that happens!

I look at the program in this light: think about what an angler would do with a 13+ lb bass if there was no SAL program.

It is the fish of a lifetime, so my guess is that the majority would have the fish mounted. If they didn't have it mounted, surely there would be a prolonged photo session, as well as a long stay in the livewell while the angler shows off his catch...which all leads to the increased chance that the fish won't survive.

Of course, there are a good few who would snap a picture or two, and throw it back in quickly. But it would be a minority imo. I'm a huge advocate of CPR, but if I caught a SAL-sized bass, I'm not even sure I could resist having it mounted.

With the SAL program, an angler has that incentive to give up the fish to the TPWD where it will most likely survive to be caught again. Because face it, the SAL program is a very sexy accomplishment for any angler.

They spend tons restocking shad now yr after yr in lakes that get hit by GA. I would support a tax on my bass equipment if the money was really going to a expanded program.We have great fisheries in tx but I would bet many would support a program if viable.

Fish care is the most important factor, as stated by guys on here. If they aren't taken care of after the catch they most likely will develop some sort of infection from the stress.

I think a few years ago most of SAL died at Athens while they were trying to breed them.

Seems like that was kept hush hush

I fixed what I thought you were trying to say....haha

Why doesnt someone smarter than I do one of those polls we see on here from time to time, and everyone can voice their position without pushing their personal agenda on everybody else.

Did the fish in your sig tell you that?

I like the SAL program, but one of the things i would like to see improved with it is stocking the offsprings in more varities of lakes. I'm sure there is alot of research into which lakes would produce larger bass and so these lakes recieve more of the offsprings, but there only seems to be a handful of lakes that these SAL offsprings are getting stocked into. Share the wealth and give some of these other lakes an opportunity to grow.

Let me ask a question.. Why are there big fish caught out of one lake and not another?? Why has lake Fork produced so many giants? Where did the original "Sharelunker" come from? It must have been an Alien fish from a different freaking planet cause before Sharelunker there was no possibility of a fish weighing 13 pounds.. And all the 13 pound fish around now have to have come from that fish.. Cause if we don't breed 13 pound fish we will never have any more 13 pound fish.. What a crock of [censored]..

Florida Bass are the reason that Texas Bass Fishing is what it is and nothing else. Man's attempt at manulipation has made No, None, Zero, Nada, Zip difference in the size of the biggest fish.. In Fact the program is self defeatist when it comes to producing the biggest of fish. It has caused the death of a lot of the biggest fish caught in TEXAS. When you want to remove every one of the biggest fish from a lake how do you intend to ever break a lake record, or a state record, or a world record.

And when it comes to Falcon, it becomes absolutely ludicrous.. And before you jump on me about my opinion of SL and the Texas stocking schedules.. Look at the History of stockings in Texas.. Look at Falcon. It is embarrasing.. Look at the bigger fish caught since the inception of Sharelunker.. All downhill.. Do the research.. Don't just take for granted because someone said so that the fish in Texas are getting bigger.. The State record is 20 freaking years old! The overal fish size in Texas has improved.. But it has no correlation to SL.. It has only to do with Florida fish..

Wanna know why I am pissed off about SL? Cause we get pissed on when it comes to stocking.. Falcon will never recover the fry that that will be removed from the lake by the removal of these fish..

Want your local lake to be full of thirteen pounders?? Think putting SL hatch in there is gonna turn it into the next Fork? Ain't gonna happen.. If your lake ain't growing any 13's now, it ain't gonna grow any any time soon. I fished Medina Lake all my life.. You remember.. the lake that held the state record for fifty(50) years.. State's first thirteen pounder.. (Do the research) Throwing SL fry in the water don't make no lake no trophy lake..

So put a bunch of Florida babies in all the lakes. Give special atention to the lakes that have the potential to produce giants. And then it will be like going to Disneyland when you get to go to one of the top tier lakes.. And it won't cost you $80 to get in the gate..

Your answers....... Fork has produced all those giants because that lake has been TP+W's baby. Look at the stocking record you speak of. Forks fish get fed on a regular basis, and those fry that survive have plenty to eat. Those were original brood fish most likely. Unfortunetly they don't live 20 years such as how long the state record has lasted. They didn't only bring fry here when florida's first came to Texas. There were large brood fish as well that Mr. Kemp brought in.
Before ShareLunker no 13's ? Surely you remember the date of Mr. Maggee's state record from home.
How can you remove all the big fish from a lake ? They aren't caught all that often. Florida's are notoriously finicky, and I would venture a comment that both your lake and my lake has a state record swimming in it somewhere.
The program is not self defeatist. Where would these 13 or bigger fish go if not for the program ? Some people release them, yes. Most would go to the taxidermist. Gives them an alternative.
The only thing that has cost the lives of the biggest fish in Texas is POOR FISH CARE from the beginning of capture to the time they get picked up, in which at that point they get the best care available. That part AT LEAST is changing a bit with educating anglers on fish care, which is what you should be doing as well. Thank you also for complaining to FLW about their fish care. Every little bit helps..... New SAL tanks put in at our remote lakes has helped as well, especially with the fish care training the individuals who run them have received.
Those two SAL's from Ivie......who do you think assisted with their care ? I did, and that was by phone and BOTH of them are alive and happy in their new home. Hopefully I will be there when they bring them back and release them.
Stocking history for Falcon ? Seems your pond has done quite well considering everyone thinks your the #1 destination right now. Looks like they restock themselves quite well. Now the white bass and stripers, well, they could do some more of that.
The bigger fish have not come as quickly anymore because the brood stock has died off. The remaining has crossed with the Texas strain and growth has not been as quick.
You speak of florida's.......... How many giants have come from the STATE OF FLORIDA here lately. NONE.
Overall fish size has nothing to do with the program ? How can you prove that ? What is to say the 13+'s that were caught out of your pond recently were not ShareLunker brood ? You can't. They don't always announce it when a stocking truck pulls up and dumps a load into a lake. And shoot, it only takes 7-8 years to grow one in your pond.
Never recover the fry ? You get some of the fry from that fish AND the fish back if the angler chooses to put it back.
Unless you kill out all the texas strain, putting pure florida's in isn't gonna help all that much other than making a brood class year and keeping the ratio of floridas to texas strain in check.. That is what a lot of the $80 in the gates do that you mentioned.
Where is your research that putting SAL fry into the lake won't turn it into another fork ? Where do you think Fork gets their stockings from ? THE SAL PROGRAM.
And think about this..... we got 500,000 fry just recently from our sharelunkers. That's not bad considering it was just 7 or 8 individual fish. And they are all still swimming here in the lake because they brought them (SAL'S) back and released them. Hopefully they are still alive. I'll take that any day of the week, floridas, SAL's or not. No, neither of our lakes get anywhere near as much stocking as Fork or other impoundments as the stocking records attest. But we take what we can get.. Some do quite well on their own.
You have disneyland at your back door. Take care of it.........
Not arguing with ya James, but you asked. Just sharing some facts AND my opinion just like I respect yours.

Show me some FACTS that prove SL is growing bigger fish..If this is such a great program, where have all the 16's 17's and 18's gone?? Not that there were ever that many..

Brood fish? Were these the holy grail of fish? No other fish could ever get that big again? I don't think so..

Fact is that most bass won't make it to 10 pounds. And it is a true treasure when you find one.. Yes we have a fish factory down here.. We make a lot of fish when conditions are right. And we have been blessed the last few years with some good conditions.. And many of the big fish that are being caught right now are the remnants of a two year cycle of great spawns. But we have had some poor years in between, and we will again in the future. But with all this being said, where's my new state record? Hell where's my new Lake record? Our lake record is nearly 20 years old..(So is the state record BTW) Seems like with all the new technology and huge number of people fishing down here it should have happened.. The lake should be full of them with all of these SL babies we have received..

You would have gotten 500,000 bass anyway.. I don't think it has ever been a pre-requisite that you had to turn in a SL to get stocking. Lakes are stocked that need stocked. That's why they do shocking surveys..

Does Falcon need stocking? Not right now.. We've got about all the bass we can support.. But we will in the future. And we'll see if PAW will ride to the rescue when it happens.. And history is not the best.

SL is more about publicity that results. Kind of like the Cowboys.. But it gets people excited. Yeah.. That's a good analogy.. Texas Bass Fishing is kind of like the Cowboys. And the SL fish are like the Cowboy Cheerleaders.. Beautiful.. Flashy.. Gorgeous.. They look great on the screen.. And Everybody wants to nail one..

But after it was over I'd still drop the Cheerleader off at her house.. And I'll choose to do the same with a 13 plus bass.. I'll leave her lying exhausted on her bed.. And by the next day, she'll be ready to do it with someone else..

I think when you boil it all down it comes down to getting your 15 minutes.. And a good replica is not that expensive, when you consider what we spend on fishing.. Give the fish and the lake a break.. Turn her loose..

Breeding fish is a science. And until the Global Warming Scam, science usually deals in facts. So show me some FACTS that prove SL has made bigger fish in Texas. And don't confuse stocking Florida Strain Bass with the SL program..

I'm waiting..

i kinda agree with both arguments, it seems like catching a SL is more about getting to say you caught one and get your name in the paper and on the internet, but if it does keep those fish from going in the freezer and on the wall, then it is worth it. the trick with that is actually keeping those fish alive.

but in all reality, the best case scenario would be to have a state wide reverse slot limit that would make it illegal to keep bass over a certain length. that way the big ones would have to go back in the water.

Good Analogy

Part of the problem I see with the SL program for Falcon is the proximity of the hatchery in Athens, to our lake. It is a 8-9 hour drive from Athens to Falcon, while the bass sits in a bait tank. Then the bass is in the SL tank truck for another 8-9 hours (or more due to stopping to check on the fish). So, the wait time and the transport time are just too long. If the hatchery was in San Antonio or Austin (i.e. somewhere more centrally located in the state), then picking up SL's from Falcon would be an option, but the wait and ride is just too long for these old grandma's they're trying to transport in less than ideal conditions (i.e. ideal conditions are in their home lake).
The other problem is we have such warm water temps down here compared with everything north of us. Bass of this size just don't do well in the hot water in the live wells while they're being transported from the fishing spot to the ramp, and then from the ramp to the drop off location while no new fresh water is being added to the livewell (i.e. huge ammonia buildup which kills the fish, which aeration can not help).
If you look at the Share-a-Lunker that was caught during the BASS Elite tournament a couple of years ago by Campbell from Missouri, you can see in the photos of the fish and the video, that this bass was just short of dead on the stage. Her eyes were fixed and dilated. No color in the fish. And while Campbell was holding her up, shaking it on stage as he was showing it to everyone, the fish was a limp dishrag. No movement of any fins. Nothing. Why were the guys from Athens even notified about this fish? She probably wouldn't have survived if she had been released right then into Falcon (i.e. ideal conditions for her), right along with a bunch of the other big bass that had been overstuffed into hot livewells, and later died at release.
So, to me, proximity and water temps are the main factors which should keep Falcon off the list of eligible lakes (including Choke Canyon) for the guys from Athens to come to pick up, because it's just too far and too hot, and makes survival of the fish unlikely. My two cents...

I have a couple of questions relevant to the success or failure of the SAL program that I genuinely want to know the answers to.

Has there ever been any peer reviewed research to prove that size is a heritable genetic trait?

If so, is it passed from the female, male, or both?

The bottom line all opinions aside, is that the individual who catches a fish of 13+ has the right to do whatever he wants with it as the law allows. Someone on an earlier post said the same thing. Be it: filet that big hawg (not recommended), kill and skin mount it (also not recommended). Or: Catch and release after a few photos and the pay $500 to get a replica (i've done this), or donate to SAL (I would do this, a free replica would be nice). Some people aren't as loaded as others, to pay for a replica of possibly a once in a lifetime fish. The genetics are in the fish we have in the lake, they are not leaving unless every fish in the lake is killed. I think we have bigger problems than 1-5 Fish a year being donated to SAL from our S.Tex. lakes. Tournament fish care, and people eating 7-10 lb fish should scare you more. I released a nice 11 lb fish yesterday from Falcon after a few photos, so its genetics will still be in the lake (no worries).

James, you and I need to make a road trip. And then I will show you first hand and you can listen to the experts instead of me.
Brood fish WERE the holy grail. Once they crossed with texas strain fish in our lakes they don't grow as fast as a pure florida, even with ideal conditions. Those brooders are what started the entire scenario we have today.
Yes, it should have happened with the #'s of anglers coming down there. They are not that easy to catch, especially florida's. Sure the big one's are from particular year classes, but those big fish have been there all along. It took the elite series on tv to tell the world. You know that. Look at all the club tournaments where we caught big fish......13,14 lb. fish and nobody told anybody other than local in-town talking. Nobody knew about it, yet your lake has been for YEARS the only lake in the world where you can pop a ten pound in 1 ft. of water at ANYTIME of year. Maybe it will happen, you can't predict that. Maybe we should be smarter as anglers. Or maybe we can all get lucky and not break one off. I would debate the record has been broken off already in that chainsaw environment you have right now.

We might have gotten 500,000 or we might not. They look at a lot more things than just shocking surveys, of which I am well aware with my research and working with TP+W and the knowledge I have obtained from them over the years what a shocking survey is for. Spend the time I have with them and research of your own and you will know what I am talking about.

LMAO I do like your analogy LMAO However, I do think the SAL program has done much better than the cowgirls LMAO

Give the fish a break ? That is ONE fish James. If your floridas are so hot and heavy, your lake should be full of them. And unless you drain it and look, that may just be what you have. Catching these fish is pure D luck with a measure of experience an angler has that helps, otherwise it would happen everyday.

Show you the facts ? Let's go. I believe I can get permission for a visit to the INSIDE of Athens where you can see for yourself what is happening. (I hear there is a good steakhouse there too).

Nobody is confusing florida bass stocking with SAL. SAL IS about florida bass. And my roadtrip will prove it from the INSIDE.

I am waiting............

Lance, the travel time is no big deal SAL truck wise. The tank is oxygenated with pure oxygen, water temps are ideal, water quality is excellent.
The SAL you speak of during the ELITE series was the ANGLERS and the ELITE SERIES staff's fault. They were warned of the conditions they would face. They were EDUCATED by SureLife's staff on procedures of livewell care management. They didn't do it or ignored it. And that fish died that night because of it. Just like all the floaters everybody threw a fit about. They were warned of the size and quantity of big fish that would come in. They ignored it and said and I quote "We have enough staff to handle anything". Well, you saw the result.

If they have followed their instructions, cared enough about the fish to learn fizzing and livewell care management, a lot of that would not have happened. As a supposed professional, I think it is their JOB to learn everything they can to help the sport and the lakes they travel to. I had to with MY job as a paramedic/firefighter. What's the difference in my opinion.

Anyway, James , the only way I know of is for you and I to go up there. You and I are both hard heads and like me the only way to get something is to go see it for myself. So..............

Texan Til I die, I will ask your questions to the experts. Would like to know those myself.

BassSlayer that was smooth getting that picture in there.

Excellent fish Dario ! When we going ? !!!!!! I need to prefish anyway. Interested ?

Sure, Carl! Give me a ring. HunterBass-that was smooth wasn't it! LOL

ya sure was!!!, Good fish dario!!!!

Just to let some of y'all know, Cabelas is partnered with the SAL program, and they will come get your fish too. I know Tim Hubner, the resident biologist @ Cabelas Ft. Worth, and he will come get it. He has all the right transport equip. He used to be with the Ft. Worth Zoo......I think People like Bass Pro and Cabelas ought to have an incentive program, that if you catch a SAL, they will display it in the store, and give you like a $1000.00 gift certificate. TP&W Pays for the replica, in order to "study" the fish, and Bass Pro or Cabelas gives you the gift certificate since they get to display the bass to bring in customers wanting to see it. Wouldn't that be cool. LOL

There is one inherent challenge that nobody mentions.....its not possible to grow truly monster fish AND have tons of average size fish TO CATCH at the same time.

Truly monster fish require less competition, more forage, and pure Florida genetics.

If you want to CATCH a bunch of average size fish you don't want them to be pure Floridas...its proven they are more finicky. In addition, they become easier to catch if there are more fish and less forage creating more competition....makes for lots of lean and mean fish but fewer PIGS.

The catch and release craze has created its own problems.....some lakes have too many bass.

You can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but you can't please all the people all the time.

This is getting funny.. Carl.. If you and I take a road trip I am afraid only one of us would come back.. :-) Two men enter... One Man leaves.. (Mad Max)

Now Splain to me this.. SL won't take a fish that is not 100% Florida.. I hear it is the first thing they check.. So what difference is that fish from the 100% Florida Brood Fish?? So if all their babies are 100% Floridas, and we have been putting them in Texas lakes for years and years.. Where's all the 18 pounders?? Splain me that..

And if you put them in Falcon with our growth rates and food supply and warm temps and lots of cover and light fishing pressure and how close it is to Wal-Mart (everyone wants to live close to a Wal-Mart). Why the hell don't we have a new state record with Falcon's name on it??

The truth is that you need a fish with a magic bullet.. The Perfect Storm has to come together to produce a 13 plus fish in Texas.. I don't need to tell you the ingredients.. And when it happens I hate to see it and it's fry moved to a lake that will never produce what that fish and her babies might produce at Falcon. Flat out, you cannot put that fish or her babies in a better environment than Falcon. Period. And with that your Honor.. I rest My Case! (Barney Fife.. Mayberry deputy)(Or Joe Peschi.. My Cousin Vinny)

I am sure if I went to Athens with you they would hook up those wires to my head like they did you and I am not not sure what would happen to me then.. I might be like Schwartzaneger in Total Recall.. But odds are that I would short circuit the machine..

I love you guys.. even if we disagree.. Keep fightin' for Texas fishin' and preach Catch and Release!

See you on the water!

Question. I researched the Lake the guy in Japan caught the bass that tied the world record. Over the last several years they have been catching 16 pluses on that lake, the year before the same guy caught an 18 plus (that he also kept). They have a program to rid the lake of largemouth and non-native species (don't know the details just that they are actively removing them), they have no catch and release program, it is basically what we would precieve as the worst possible program to create a monster bass, yet they are catching giants out of the lake! Why is that? Would love to hear that one explained away and compared to why one fish donated to SAL makes such a huge impact on a lakes fishery, when it clearly doesn't in Japan based on the articles I have read and researched. It is Lake Biwa if you care to research it as well. And yes I know they are all Florida Strain Bass in that lake!

I have my thoughts on why they have a giant factory, would love to hear other thoughts on that subject as well.

Obviously there are several lakes in Texas that are capable of producing 13 plus bass, Falcon doesn't hold the patent on big fish and the only perfect environment, I have caught several 12 plus on Lake Buchanan an unlikey source some would say. In my mind if you don't think there is a 19 or better swimming in a Texas lake, heck on several Texas lakes, I would say you are sorely mistaken. I agree it takes the near perfect storm to make her that big, but it certainly takes the perfect storm to get a hook in her lip. They didn't get that big by making stupid mistakes!

I know people want to see those Florida Strain Bass returned to the lake to produce off spring, assuming she mates with the male that has the genes to grow big bass as well. Let's just be thankful those boys in Florida weren't stingy when someone asked them to share the genes out of their lakes with other states. If they had acted half as Bass Greedy as some of the folks I have seen writing articles, blogs and threads we wouldn't be blessed enough to have this conversation right now!
Just my $0.02

Ok, here are some facts.

“Data collected by the program (SAL) shows that it takes 8 to 10 years for a bass to grow to 13-pound size.” (TPWD)

According to the stocking records that have been referenced many times already, 2006 was the first year pure SAL fingerlings were stocked in public lakes. Fork, Conroe, and Alan Henry, for example were some of the first to be stocked. Research takes years to accomplish and let’s face it, the SAL program is a Huge experiment with a public friendly name.

“TPWD fisheries biologists are monitoring the growth rate of stocked Budweiser ShareLunker offspring as compared to resident “wild” fish in the reservoirs. The average ShareLunker offspring was 7.1 inches long and weighed 2.7 ounces. The average wild fish averaged 5.3 inches long and weighed 1.2 ounces.” (*Link to full text provided below)

The comment about high stocking rates having a negative effect on population quality is a sound argument in my opinion. Though, what looks to be overstocking may not be the case. Here’s some data I put together about Fork using information found on TPWD’s website.

Since its impoundment, Fork has been stocked 19 times totaling 9,796,952 largemouth bass. Fork covers 27,264 acres. That equals 18.91 fish per acre per year. I’ve done the same calculation for Alan Henry, second on the SAL list, and it’s been stocked at a rate of about 9 fish per acre per year. Despite what might seem like overstocking, Fork has produced 243 of the 400 or so SAL’s and continues to be at the top of the list each year in number of fish submitted. Alan Henry hasn't submitted a SAL since April of 07.

The stocking of SAL fingerlings has only just begun folks; the data looks good, and after working at the facility in Athens and having serious conversations with the biologists in charge, and the technicians doing the work of the program I am very confident that new records are on their way.

* http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20060508f

You know guys.. I'm not talking about other lakes. I'm talking about Falcon.. And you explain to me how taking a 13 plus fish out of the lake can make it better.. Will it make your lake better? Who Knows?? But it is not going to make Falcon better..

First Sharelunker fry in 2006? What's the program been stocking and growing for 20 years?

Sure.. we could see a new state record any day.. And when it happens I am sure it will all be due to the SL program.. Or at least that is what the Papers will say. But the truth is that a monster fish, that was caught and released, broke a few lines, along with a few hearts, and was caught and released again, gained a few more pounds, and made the mistake of getting caught in some open water when she had topped 18 pounds..

And along the way she had all the groceries she could eat..

Thanks for sharing your opinions, and thanks for putting up with mine..

I'm done with this topic.. Again..

Thanks for your input James. I agree with you 100%.

Thanks scott. Maybe I will see ya up there in Athens when I visit. Ya working there ? If so, congrats ! Maybe go have a TFF lunch when I come up there sometime. Well, can't say I didn't try James. I offered on my dime. Guess I will have to settle for a Zapata steak. See ya next month................

Some good into Scott. Thanks.

As some have pointed out... all this talk and it simply comes down to the fact that each angler that catches one should get to do whatever they want with that fish, with no judgement from anyone.


Carl, we can all just meet at the free SAL lunch we get for catching one this year right?

I bet Amistad will be back to its old ways here in a few years. The population of 1 and 2 year old fish last year looked unreal (Billions of them covering coves with plenty of bait.)

You catch one here and it will most likely be more than lunch ! Your right. The young population here has exploded as well as the 4-5 lb. bunch. Interesting year class there. The shock boat studies we did this last year confirmed it as well as the creel surveys and talking to everyone here at the shop. Come help me catch one ! Heck, we can go in my boat so ya don't have to haul yours from up there.............

I wonder how many of the big fish are taken out by illegal netting in the mentioned lakes.Just a thought,Lake Fork is a long way from Mexico

“TPWD fisheries biologists are monitoring the growth rate of stocked Budweiser ShareLunker offspring as compared to resident “wild” fish in the reservoirs. The average ShareLunker offspring was 7.1 inches long and weighed 2.7 ounces. The average wild fish averaged 5.3 inches long and weighed 1.2 ounces.”

One last thing.. "Wild" fish are not pure Florida fish.. This is another case of Confusung SL Babies and Pure Florida Strain bass.. Now if you told me that SL babies Were outgrowing the Pure Florids babies then you would be telling me something.. But you can't.. And how do they know these "Stocked " fish were from Sharelunker?? All tagged? Just wondering..

I fished Hydrilla last year at Tenoroc. It was free, just the 2 or 3 bucks they charge for any of the lakes. Its full of runts, I guess it didnt recover. I didnt realize what a little lake that had once been when I fished it or I'd have been throwing some bigger baits.

I'm not sure where that data was collected. TPWD has an undisclosed lake where they are doing intensive studies on the SAL offspring vs "wild" fish. (Again, you bring up a good point, I’m not sure about the genetics of the wild population they’re sampling) If I remember correctly, when they get a sample of fish they are taking tissue or blood samples and scanning the genes of each fish. They look to see if those genes match the genes of the SALs and brood fish at the hatchery. By the same process, they can determine if it’s a pure Florida or mixed breed fish.

If you're so skeptical and angry with the program, how about you call Dave Campbell, manager of the SAL program and ask him about all this data you're asking us to show you and tell him how he should improve that crappy bass population in Falcon. (david.campbell@tpwd.state.tx.us (903) 670-2230)

Arent the SALs pure florida strain? or so much percent FL strain? I just remember someone getting turned down on a big fish this past year because it wasnt pure enough.

Seems like stocking some pure FL strain would be a good idea. It would have to be cheaper than the SAL program. I like the SAL program, I dont see why it wouldnt be helping more instead of hurting. On the other hand, if people were pulling 13lbrs out of my home lake I'd be sick about it, regardless of what they did with the fish. Seems like they could grow their own pure FL strain 13lbers to breed in their pond. Im curious to know if theyve tracked any SALs after release and how the fish did after the ordeal.

I just think its awsome to have a fish and game dept. that puts so much emphasis on big bass. Cant wait to be a Texas resident.

Scott.. I respect your opinion. But you guys are the ones taking for granted all the hype that they are creating a super fish. You guys regurgetate(sp) whatever they say as if there is no question that it is fact when NONE of it (The possibility that they are growing bigger fish due to SL) can be proven..

And I don't have to ask him or you how to improve the fishing in Falcon.. I already know.. Quit taking our big fish out of the lake!!

And we do not need to improve the bass population.. We have plenty. And if they quit taking OUR brood fish out of the lake we will have plenty of monsters too..

How many fry will one 13 pound fish produce in a year or two? Thousands and thousands, and thousands. All with good genes.. You put 200,000 SL fry in here every five or eight years.. Big Deal.. Half get eaten the first month. A 5-10% survival rate to one year is probably good..A few SL's will do that much more efficiently with NO cost..

BTW.. It is true that SL will only take 100% Florida fish..

And if the facts were so clear.. Why wouldn't PAW put out a Certified, Documented, Witnessed, Guaranteed report to squelch people like me that know the program is bogus??

See you on the water..

perhaps I dreamed this. but I was under the impression that when Fork was impounded, they killed all the native fish from stock ponds through out the area to be flooded and stocked them with pure florida.

Raven had 97% Florida alleles in 2005 (Raven report ). In 2009, Operation World Record bass (ShareLunker offspring) were bigger, on average, than the non-ShareLunker offspring.

"TPWD’s ShareLunker program uses 13-pound or bigger bass donated by anglers in a selective breeding program, stocking the resulting fingerlings into public waters. Most are stocked as 1.5-inch fingerlings (some 78,000 in 2008), but a portion are designated as Operation World Record (OWR) fish and are reared to six inches before being stocked (more than 59,000 in 2008).

The growth of the OWR fish is being monitored and compared to growth rates of wild fish by TPWD biologists. Now in its fourth year, the program collected fish from Lake Raven, a small lake in Huntsville State Park, that give a hint of what may lie ahead.

While the average four-year-old wild fish from Lake Raven weighed 2.23 pounds, the average OWR fish weighed 2.88 pounds. And one of those OWR fish was 23 inches long and weighed a whopping 7.23 pounds!"

Operation World Record article

What this says to me is that ShareLunker offspring grew faster than regular old Florida bass. If that isn't hard evidence than I guess I don't know what is.

If they gave you a full report saying that there is a 99.999 percent possibility that the result of larger fish is correlated with the effects of the program, you could still choose to not believe it.

The data Hiodon provided points that the SAL fingerlings are doing better than the other fish, which is the point. But, they dont provide the statistical analysis with p-values and the whole shebang so we just have to take it for what it's worth.

And it's worth nothing.. What hiodon pasted says "Wild Fish" Not Floridas.. There is a difference.. Read what it actually says.. Not what you want it to say. "Regular Old Floridas"
are SL fish. That's where they come from. From pure bred Florida fish.

The term Florida has been watered down to you guys to include any fish that has any Florida in it..

All fish swimming around in Texas waters are not Floridas!!! They may be part Florida.. But not pure.. Falcon's Genome is reported by PAW to be right around 82%.. Lots of lakes are lower. Some are higher..

Once again I say to you that they are not comparing SL fish to Pure Floridas.. That's Hard evidence.. Now you know..

I don't quite get what you are saying. TPWD compared the growth of first generation SL offspring to the growth of a bass population with 97% Florida allele expression. They're not "pure" Florida bass, but 97% is pretty dang close.