LOOKING AT FISH

Let's hear opinions. Should fish you catch on Forward Facing Sonar have at least 1 hook inside the mouth? In tournaments

I'd keep consistency with the already established tournament sight fishing rules

Why would this even come up? how many times do you catch a crankbait fish in the top of the head instead of the mouth? Fish swipe at baits and arn't always hooked in the mouth. Unless you are purposely trying to snag a fish then it's a non-issue

This is why it is coming up. Not looking at a fish and it swipes at ur bait is one thing. Throwing a a rig with multiple hooks or a jerkbait with three trebles. When a fish is right on ur bait who says someone doesn't set the hook into a fish purposely or by accident.
Just asking opinions!

Well if it's by accident then it's not on purpose. Anyone that has fishes has accidently done it. Tournament fishing already has rules in place for bed fishing. (now that its edited for tournament fishing)

The rules are for "sight fishing" not bed fishing. That's where it gets murky

Guess it all comes down to "Ethics" Just like in golf. Too bad it's a dying thing.

IMHO one hook in the mouth is a good rule.

FFS is not site fishing as much as people want it to be, 60 feet in front of you is not at all the same as 16 feet. not even discussion worthy

How is it not when I can I can see the position of the fish in relation to my lure and see every reaction the fish makes?

My thoughts also. But just curious what others think

Its very simple you cannot see that it has it, you just feel it.

Really not that simple. I have seen videos of guys ripping an a-rig and also on live where guys jerk bc they saw the fish go towards a bait and say i need to quit jerking like that till I feel them.

So, I guess if you drop a spoon in 60 feet of water into a school of fish you can see on your 2d sonar they had better be hooked in the mouth as well....

Yes it is that simple, we don't need a new livescope rule in tournaments because of a few scumbags. That would fall into the intentional snagging rule that is already in place.

I mostly catch livescope fish with a topwater , they are not always hooked "inside" the mouth. Same for the jerkbait crowd , just because you see em on a screen doesn't mean a snag is intentional.

Your A rig snaggers are "intentionally" snagging there is already a rule for that.

Big difference in 2d and real time

Technically you are not "looking at fish" with live sonar. You're looking at an image that is produced by a transducer to transmit and receive acoustic energy signals, or "pings".


So you are not actually "looking at fish", whereas sight fishing you are physically "looking at fish".

So you are "that guy" brings it up as a question but it's really not a question.

So you want more rules then ? Just what fishing needs more rules.

Yes I agree with the coming up on a bait to eat or kill it. The thing that kinda made me start questioning things is when all these guys started putting bigger hooks on there jerkbaits to get them down level with the fish they see and some guys ripping the a-rigs. I'm not saying I am for new rules just seeing what others thought.

Read my response! And no you r always one of those guys that want to turn a conversation into smart**s comment! That is why people leave this forum

Well I understand the technical side of that but that blob is a fish and guys know that. Alot of guys say they can tell what kinda fish it is also.

People have seen fish for years on depthfinders when fishing and no special rules have been needed. Personally I don't see a need for a new rule now. Sight fishing is a totally different deal than FFS.

Thanks I appreciate ur opinion. Just playing devils advocate here. Asking questions

actual LOL , yes there is no telling how many people I run off the TFF

I just sounds better coming from Mark.......

I still don't see how you can argue livescope and sight fishing aren't the same. I am not advocating for more rules, but it is definitely sight fishing 100%. Anytime you deal with money and cheating there will be a need to reevaluate the laws and rules we have in place as long as technology continues to improve. Personally, I am not worried about the livescope guys when fishing a tournament.

That's it, I'm putting 5 treble hooks on my A-rig.

I agree. I don't worry about them either. I will always fish how I fish. But in my opinion it is 100% sight fishing for guys that really know the technology

I am sure it's been done. lol

I want to fish with the guy who is good enough to cast out in front of the boat and snag fished based on his sonar signal.

Same.

Ok I am going to try one more time.

Actual Site Fishing is looking at a fish with your eyes , looking down through the water directly at a fish. Its nothing like looking at a screen of a fish that is 60 feet away. I am sorry if I have touched a nerve but they are not the same thing.


I at one time was a very good site fisherman and am a decent at best Livescoper and also have Mega 360 , yes I absolutely agree I see that there are fish and that they are following the bait but that image is nothing like "real" site fishing.

No matter how bad you want it to be it isn't.

I posted without reading all the replies.....

No worries Mark, you are just less of a Smart A than me apparently

That makes no sense. Looking at a fish live on the screen is the exact same as looking at a fish live in the water. You see real-time movements and reactions. Nobody is saying sight fishing is wrong, but to say livescope is not sight fishing is just plain asinine. Sight fishing a bed fish, you're casting to a fish real-time trying to get it to react. Fishing with a livescope, you are casting at a fish you see real-time and are trying to get it to react. The means by which you see it aren't relevant in this case. If you want to argue that it's not bed fishing, then I totally agree. But sight fishing is sight fishing, no matter how bad you don't want it to be.

I remember going from a weight on a string with different colors for different depths to a high tech green box Lowrance lo-k-tor. It was a game changer! Many changes over the past 60 years. I love spot lock. I don't know about FFS. It seems like it has taken away the bass safe spaces suspended over trees in deep water. I wonder what is coming next.

Can you see a fish take a bait at 60 feet without feeling it and know 100% it has the bait ? Can you see it's gills flare ? Can you see a change in it's attitude or pitch to a bait ?

No you cannot , you are wrong in your comment that it is exactly the same and more asinine for saying so.

That is the point! You don't have to see his gill flare or try to eat it. All u have to do is get ur bait with multiple hooks in line and same depth as the fish. Then ur have a chance of running in to it! Or ripping in to it.
So if u see a fish locked on a bed and back off where u can't see it and rip a jerkbait or crankbait through the area and hook the fish out side of the mouth is it not "technically" sight fishing?
And yes Mark is much less of a Smart**s!

That's arguing with Tiltman!!

No Snagging rules cover your scenario is all , I don't disagree that you see fish and fish movement on the screen but as some one who has done a lot of both there so many differences and visual queues. I would never add provisions that would turn all treble hook fish into California rules. I would enforce no snagging intentionally rules.

"So if u see a fish locked on a bed and back off where u can't see it and rip a jerkbait or crankbait through the area and hook the fish out side of the mouth is it not "technically" sight fishing?
And yes Mark is much less of a Smart**s"


It's still snagging, and a very sh!tty way to catch em, Robby Rose could maybe pass that poly but I sure wouldn't

The problem is nobody has a no snagging rule. It's specified as "sight fishing" and trust me I have seen it all when there is money on line at every level.

What if you wear dark sunglass when bed fishing would that make it like livescope

Actually it's covered in the game laws

per TPWD:

"It is unlawful to use a pole and line to take or attempt to take fish by foul-hooking, snagging, or jerking. A fish is foul-hooked when caught by a hook in an area other than the fish's mouth."

Clearly common sense is not your strong suit. You're grasping at straws just to make an argument. It is pretty evident when a livescope fish is coming after your bait. Seeing gils flare and all that is just a stupid attempt to prove a bad point. You are looking at a screen (using your sight), to catch fish. That is literally the definition of SIGHT FISHING.

I haven't read any since early last year but have always understood intentional snagging was outlined as a no no , if not it should be.

Still not the same thing

Implies that its intentional. Not uncommon to foul hook a fish with crankbaits, jerk baits, or a rigs.

HDVS said no body has a "no snagging" rule. Every tournament that I have ever fished from the smallest to the largest have always said you must follow all games laws.

A "no snagging" rule isn't necessary since it is covered in the games laws of the State of Texas.

Accidental or intentional is what would define lawful or unlawful in that instance. IMO.

Well that would dq any fish that is hooked outside of the mouth no matter the situation.

As much disdain I have for livescope The parts pimp is right, It’s not the same as sight fishing. With a crank bait jerk bait you don’t know if it was hooked in the mouth and side then the mouth came un-buttoned but the side did not.

But this is the internet and folks gonna argue all day. Not me not today.


Remember sir. Never argue with a fool he’ll pull you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Arguing is just part of a discussion now days!

No it wouldn't as it reads, "use a pole and line to take or attempt to take fish", which means someone has the intent to "snag a fish" purposely,

That's what would make it illegal. Not an accidental instance of a fish hooked outside it's mouth.

I was mostly on your side, but really? Take or attempt to take implies 'intent'. Casting, and reeling a crank bait without the snagging/jerking/foul-hook is totally different. Swiping, in other words, the fish turning and hooking itself outside the mouth is a legal catch. Jerking indiscriminately to catch a fish is much different!

Ps. The subject of snagging fish should never be discussed without bringing up Sprague.

So it’s done now. Shut it down

The way I read it is attempt to take implies intent! The issue is that TPWD stated it as Take OR attempt to take says a lot. All of us have foul hooked a fish with a crank bait or jerk bait ect.. I think the Take part of it has more bearing on ffs issue. If you foul hook a fish and put it in the live well to weigh in in my opinion you have (Taken) that fish even it is to be released later! It’s definitely a grey area but I would hate to be holding a winning fish and take the poly in that situation. On the other hand if your holding a SAL fish and about to hand it over to TPWD I’m sure it would be no questions asked!

We need to get Mike Longs opinion on the situation.

As previously stated… if you are intentionally snagging the fish there is already a rule covering that. If you don’t win and get a poly a person would likely never get caught with or without FFS. It comes down to basic morals and ethics.

It was a bit of an eye opener last year with Rooster and Crankin Craig, remember the idiots that put a video on YouTube intentionally culling a dead fish during Basschamps? No telling how many more of those we fish against every tournament that aren’t stupid enough to post a video or finish in a polygraph spot.

If that TPWD is written out as is then that could be interpreted alot of ways. The last part about foul hooking is separated from the sentence that covers intent!
Intent is also not really what the question I ask is about. Lets say u r looking at a fish on ur FFS and it's not biting. So u give a couple of quick twitches and feel something. Of course ur going to set the hook. Get the fish in and its snagged in the tail or the back. No where near the mouth. You had no Intent but u were visually looking at that fish in real time on a graph and more than likely snagged him (in some sense) bc what u felt was probably ur bait running into him.
I believe in black nd white rules and no gray areas. But many push those areas at every level.

I personally believe snagging a fish with Live Sonar would be more impressive than catching a fish with Live Sonar.

I believe intent is the deciding factor.

And that is how we end up with foolish rules like California has and the way an organization like BASS interprets them. The rule out there reads "the fish has to attempt to voluntarily take the bait inside its mouth". Trip Weldon interpreted that to mean the fish had to be hooked from inside the mouth. Go pull up the video of the Elite tournament Steve Kennedy won at Clear Lake. He has a 10 pound fish that took an 8 inch Huddleston swimbait head first down its throat, but the hook entered from outside the mouth and he had to release it. Be careful what you wish for...

I'm not wishing for anything. I completely do not agree with the Cali rule. Those fish were not sight fish in any way. My question has been this whole time is more about how do you interpret sight fish. To me visually and FFS is sight fishing. You are actively seeing these fish and how they are moving and sitting.

So with that as an explanation - while catching schooling fish on top, I would assume that any fish you caught outside the mouth, you would release them?

this thread reminds me of the argument we had about whether it was legal to keep a fish that you "hand lined" in after your line broke.....if we look at the big picture,why do we have rules or laws against snagging a fish?....the opportunity to snag a fish is so rare that you would never use that tactic to catch fish in a tournament...you can make a pretty good argument that it's about as easy to entice a bedding fish to bite as it is to snag one.......and....the limit controls how many fish you can legally take home so what is the difference between methods of catching them?

Completely off again! A topwater fish is not laying on the surface where u can see it. And it is obviously coming up to attack a bait. Even if u see that fish on FFS its under the surface and comes up to eat the bait.

Ok I will simplify the question. Is using FFS sight fishing in your opinion? yes or no works fine

Not even close.

Huge difference between seeing a fish with your eyes and having an electronic device that gives you an approximate distance, direction, and depth of a fish that is likely moving.

It allows you to get your lure in the strike zone, but i dont think it is letting people hit them in the head.

Your screen makes it look like the bait is right on them, but its because you are projecting a 3 dimensional world on a 2D screen.

I believe the argument can be made both ways. My opinion is it is a form of sight fishing. I hate that I had to disagree with the expert on the subject, but oh well!

Careful Sprigsss

JHS will tell you that is asinine and of no common sense , maybe even in the same sentence

NO !

All I know is that Livescope is cheating till I can afford one and learn to use it.

Living rent-free in your head I see.

Such a tired term , you can do better despite your mental handicap

Tired or appropriate? You were clearly bothered by our exchange, otherwise, you wouldn't have brought my name up. Maybe you can enlighten me on another witty comeback since mine is "tired".

^^^^^ (but w/o the exclamation mark )

I admit you are a very annoying person with your authoritative dismissal of my position that real sight fishing is different from livescoping or fake sightfishing. So yeah that is a form of "bother" , but it's not my job to think for you on a less used and more clever banter.

As this thread continues you will see your position that they are indeed the same is less popular and that the rules for real sight fishing and fake sight fishing should be different.

Any other questions ?

Oh here we go again! Simple question simple answers please.

Wow. my opinion isn't the most popular? What is this? Highschool? Just because it isn't shared by the "in" crowd, doesn't make it wrong. Also, if you knew how to read, I actually stated in my very first post that I am not advocating for more rules, but that livescope is a form of sight fishing, but what can we expect from a juvenile with 3rd grade reading comprehension.

Chris he's just a kid and you're a successful business man with a multi million dollar operation. It's easy to understand the communication gap between you two.

Nope not high school , maybe popular was the wrong word but that fact is you will see that less people agree with your position than do mine. Does putting it this way incline you to continue lobbing veiled insults in my direction ?

If not I can take more I have pretty thick hide.


But back to the original question , HDV asked if it was the same , or should the rules in tournaments be the same. Is this accurate ?

Is it a form of site fishing wasn't the spirit of the question initially am I correct on that ?

Assuming I am correct then no they are not the same and you continue to be wrong, two different things. Can it be stretched into saying since you use your eyes is it a "form" (word you just added) of site fishing ? Sure I am using my eyes to site fish by having them open and fishing.


I can keep this up all day , in fact I would love to see this thread continue to keep piling up the resounding "NO's"

First off you know nothing about me. Second off if I was who you imply, what does that say of either of you arguing with "a kid". Success doesn't equate to intelligence, look at our president. Also, your "successful business person" doesn't know the difference between SIGHT and SITE. Spare me.

I agree I know nothing about you , did I imply I did ? I never brought success into the discussion someone else did , and shame on me for a short cut I used voice to text since my left arm has just recently been re attached and typing one handed sucks. I will strive to improve my grammar just have patience with me.


We do agree on the POTUS being an idiot , so there's that.

Josh what are you around 30 ish? That is a kid to an old man that needs reading glasses, LOL.


Why don't y'all just say what all these posts are truly about and I agree with y'all, I would pissed if my local honey hole was getting hammered by out of towners like Ivie is these days.

[quote=Tiltman]Nope not high school , maybe popular was the wrong word but that fact is you will see that less people agree with your position than do mine. Does putting it this way incline you to continue lobbing veiled insults in my direction ?

If not I can take more I have pretty thick hide.


But back to the original question , HDV asked if it was the same , or should the rules in tournaments be the same. Is this accurate ?

Is it a form of site fishing wasn't the spirit of the question initially am I correct on that ?

Assuming I am correct then no they are not the same and you continue to be wrong, two different things. Can it be stretched into saying since you use your eyes is it a "form" (word you just added) of site fishing ? Sure I am using my eyes to site fish by having them open and fishing.


I can keep this up all day , in fact I would love to see this thread continue to keep piling up the resounding "NO's"


[/quote
I changed the question to a simple yes or know on sight fishing. Thought it might keep the arguing down. Guess not!
POTUS is an idiot is the smartest thing I have heard u say yet!

You just screwed up the whole thread. Now that I know you’re my elder I can’t argue and be disrespectful anymore. When you were just a name on a forum I could pretend I was arguing with my coaching buddies lol. Also I haven’t seen a drop off in my tournament production at Ivie so all is well as the moment.

Would you guys learn how to quote? Makes my head hurt.

"I changed the question to a simple yes or know on sight fishing. Thought it might keep the arguing down. Guess not!
POTUS is an idiot is the smartest thing I have heard u say yet! smile

Careful now don't confuse your "no's"



And Doug makes it sound like I am so old I eat jello and wear diapers....... not quiet there yet.

How does a thread on how bass are hooked turn into such a bitch session? We need some warm weather. Winter frustration is boiling over. Everyone, please chill and lighten up on all the bickering.

Well u haven't been here long enough if u asked that question! Between Tiltman, Douglass J and a couple of others they can turn any thread into a b*tch session! Just gotta learn to laugh it off and roll on.

So what's the conclusion, is using forward facing sonar sight fishing or not?

I haven’t seen any bitching! Just good old fashioned arguing

Clearly not

You realize he founded the platform, right?

I think its a great question, that should be asked on a discussion forum about fishing. 10 pages of arguing seems excessive.
I don't believe its sight fishing but should fall under no snagging rule. If your scum enough to snag fish on live scope you dont care about rules anyways. One day the rule may need to be revisited when faster processor and resolution happens. A camera shaped like a fish has been around for years.

know

It’s about 50 50! 1 word out of 20 replies. Ya’ll keep harping on that. So scoundrel did u get ur feeling hurt bc I didn’t include in in the list with Tiltman and Douglass J?😂😂

Thank U. I kinda thought I was posting a fishing question on fishing forum but been down this road here before. I just laugh at the bickering and smarta@@ comments. And sorry idk how to do the quote boxes

TTT

Reel it back in on topic, or the thread will get locked or pulled.

Basically, everyone that has forward facing sonar, can afford forward facing sonar, and understand what they’re looking at is going to be on one side of the argument. Everyone who does not have it, cannot afford it, or cannot decipher the images is going to be on the other side.

Also if your from the Ivie area livescope, a rigs, and Oklahoma are the devil. Does that pretty much sun it up?

Nailed it.

I disagree. I don't have it and I don't think it's sight fishing.

I believe snagging is the deciding factor. Is it all right to unintentionally snag a fish? Come on, It's still a snagged fish, throw it back!

It’s can be sight fishing. I watched Patrick Walters his first day on Fork the year he won. Multiple cast on the side of a tree where he could see them. Few trees had them. He rarely caught one that didn’t follow the bait 20 feet before he caught it. Then it might follow several times. A bunch of work to fish all day like that with out a break. He could not have caught those fish without it. He had that technique mastered.

Same here. Don't have it, doubt I ever will have it but I don't consider it sight fishing.

I haven't got any sort of "Live" system on my bug yet but I'm working toward that end as hard as I can go but watching MLF Bass Pro Series for two weeks in a row something I've learned is just because you can see them don't mean you can make them bite. For any of you that have followed it, how many of you have noticed that the pros using it have made the statement; I'm paraphrasing here, that they could see them following their lure; multiple fish at a time in some cases and yet never get bit. To me that would make this game more frustrating than it already is, but it would be nice to know at least you were presenting your lure to fish and not just stumps, cover, and structure.

+1

100% agree and I have one on order but I bet I will only use it in the cold months or maybe dog days of summer? Hell I had fish on my 2/D and DI this weekend I couldn’t get to bite! I set a new fishing goal starting now. Any TFF thread that already has 3+ pages I will not click on!! Lol