MLF - “Obey the law” rule

All tournaments that I have ever fished have a rule (usually the first rule listed) that says obey all state and local laws. Does MLF not have this rule? Guys are leaving their boats to get on peoples docks and private bridges to land fish and then get a 3 minute penalty. In doing so they are committing Criminal Trespass. Any tournament I have ever been a part of that would lead to a DQ.

Are docks and these bridges always considered Private Property? I know in Texas the structure itself can be considered private, but is that the case in all states? Do we know if MLF worked with the lakes or local jurisdictions to get "permission" for the purpose of their tournament? Maybe there is a rider/waiver of certain property claims during tournament hours!

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but is it Criminal Trespass in Texas if it is not posted? I honestly do not know.

Quick google search;

(a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:

(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden;

or

(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

So if it's not posted and no one is there to tell them to leave, it's not criminal trespass is what I'm reading. Right? Wrong?

Interesting read, focused on navigable streams, but...

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/trespass.phtml

Not sure that a boat dock, on a public lake is really considered private property. I think homeowners are simply lucky that no one squawts on the thing.

I know as a beach front homeowner, at SanLuis pass, that the beach is my front yard. I cannot expect anyone to not pass foot through it. In fact, if the coastline changes and erodes it, or even my home, it’s my loss. My loss only. Absolutely no recourse on my behalf.

Thanks for posting that. Had no idea about the purple paint and glad I learned something today.

In Texas the structure of the boat dock is private property. The water under the boat dock is public. Someone getting on your boat dock is basically the same as someone getting on your porch of your house.

Makes sense. I can keep beach goers off my deck, if they can walk right under my house and I can’t do anything to prevent it, because it would block access to the beach and water.

So, I guess I could Powerpole down in a boat slip, as long as I’m not physically touching the structure?

Who regulates the size of the boat house/dock? What’s to prevent them from building a 10k square foot dock? Seems as the grey area here is where I’m lost.

Yes but people enter your front porch area all the time and are not guilty of the criminal trespass you speak of, the mail man, ups, amazon, some little girl selling girl scout cookies, jehovah witness and mormons..... I bet none of these have ever been charged with criminal trespass.

On Conroe it's the San Jacinto River Authority. You see the SJRA numbered tag on all the docks.

In this case it would be the San Jacinto River Authority. Depends on who is over each individual lake.

This is what I think also if someone walks across your yard or something you just don't file charges on them,

When they were on Roberts, one of them was fishing next to and all around the discharge structure which clearly states stay 300 feet away.

how often have you pulled into a covered boat dock or house to avoid getting struck by lightning? Not stepping onto the dock, but floating inside.

But it's not buoyed off by the state. What if the marina painted stay back 300 ft

But it's not Criminal Trespass unless they have notice that it is forbidden, or have been asked to leave and do not.

That’s probably why we see so many boathouses and docks with no trespassing signs on them.

I have never heard of an river authority or lake authority that would allow that big of a dock for private use. On the lake my place is on I think it is 2000 sq. Foot and no more than 150 foot from shore.
As far as private, yes a dock is considered private property in Texas and it is not ok to get out on it to land a fish or retrieve a lure.
I have thought the same about obey laws watching MLF before.

more than once. For sure. I’ve even fished under the dock while waiting out the lightning.

So my lure is on your dock, and if I take two steps onto your dock it is trespassing? Hmmm, hate for my sons soccer ball to roll two steps into your yard. Sometimes I got to just shake my head on this forum.

^THIS, I've always seen game wardens side with the angler over disputes too. Homeowners don't want the hassle, don't build a dock on a public lake in texas, better move to louisiana.

kinda my thoughts, the thought process that even leads the op to come up with such nonsense as this whole criminal trespass business is just a mystery to me.

I would think, if retrieving your personal property (lure) & no criminal intent during the act, then no grounds for criminal trespassing exists. Landing a fish would fall under same condition, as long as cast originated from the boat. If they're not DQ'd by TD for it, who cares? Apparently, the " no leaving boat during tournament competition rule isn't there.

Yup

I cannot claim criminal trespass unless they get in the tiki hut at my place. That is the only part we own. The dock is COE.

Is it marked with no trespassing signs? If so then yes, you are trespassing. If it is not marked then no you are not unless they have asked you to leave and you failed to comply or had previously been warned by the owner not to trespass the you can walk over and retrieve your lure. About the same as a salesman knocking on your front door. he did nothing wrong unless you had previously warned him he was not allowed on your property.

On another "follow the law" thing since they release the fish it seems they set the size limit and don't care what the law is. In other words if a fish is too short to be legal or is a slot fish on a given water body, but weighs a pound does it count?

Yes

x2

Of course. Why wouldn't it count?

They are following the law. The size limit refers to fish that you can harvest not what you can hook. Catch fish, weigh and release is not harvesting. The state doesn't care if you weigh the fish and record it's weight then release it right back into the water.

Completely different situation.

But like stated to criminal trespass in Texas you've got to cross a fence, ignore a sign or have been warned by the police.

You put following the law in quotes, but what they are doing is not law breaking, as Bobby Milam stated. It is a rule not a law. They are not harvesting or retaining the fish in their live well, so no law broken. Laws are set by local, state, and federal governments.

Some people have nothing better to do than come up with [censored] like this. If not posted or being asked to leave, why do y'all care.

Yawn.

From the Texas Outdoor Annual. This is why I think the MLF thing with weighing any fish also steps on the rules a little bit.

"Fish caught and immediately released are not considered to be in possession. Any fish that are retained by using any type of holding device such as stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket are considered in an angler’s possession and must adhere to established length and bag limits."

A scale is not a "holding device" in this instance. A holding device is something for the purpose of keeping fish for a later time. The fish are immediately weighed and released.

If you put a fish in your livewell, on a stringer, in a basket over the side of the boat, etc. to get out the scale or camera, you are possessing, and therefore in violation.

Do you think TPWD would have allowed the TTBC format of weigh-catch-and release for all these years if there was a problem with legality?

In Texas, criminal trespass does not require the land to be marked as private. In some other states it does. Not sure about other types of property

I think it would add to the drama and improve MLF if they had to be legal size fish for a given water body in order to count. Shoot I might be able to actually compete in a tournament with this format. I am hard on some one pounders with a shakey head!!

I think what might be confusing is how they do it in other states. We were in Alaska doing some fishing and the guide wouldn't let us take the fish out of the water because it wasn't on a specific day where any harvest was allowed. We didn't care as we just wanted a photo of it but he unhooked it and released it while holding it in the water. He was adamant that with social media now, you can't bend the rule in the slightest or Johnny Law can issue you a citation just from the info encoded on a photo of the time, date and location a picture was taken.

So maybe in a state that's that strict about what it means to "possess" a fish but it shouldn't be an issue in the Lone Star State.

Not sure about that, 04.

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-05.html

The SJRA regulates docks on lake Conroe. You are required to submit plans and get a permit before building a dock. There are strict regulations around how far it sticks out, height of dock etc for the safety of the waterway. You also pay a yearly fee for the area of the lake under your dock that you are essentially "renting". This has become a very continuous thing over the last couple of years. As you know the SJRA has implemented a yearly cycle of "lowering" Lake Conroe in the spring and in the summer as a result of political fallout from Harvey. The dock regulations place most of the docks on conroe in 3-4 Ft of water at full pool. A 2ft drop in lake level + 6-12 inches of evaporation drop puts the majority of the docks out of commision during the lowering periods. Many people have complained that they should not have to pay this permit fee since their dock is high and dry...

I have heard mixed reviews on that. I was told by a LEO that the only thing you are allowed to do with an undersize fish is to measure it on the board to see if legal... no pictures etc.. I think its pretty lax though and I dont think anyone would say anything for weigh and release.

All I am hearing is "well I heard" or "so and so told me" or "this one time". I also don't understand why we have to bash someone who simply stated a question. Here is fact, if you get on someone's property who doesn't want you there, it is trespassing.

But that doesn't mean getting on a dock to get a lure back is tresspassing. As stated by many dock owners on here. They would rather you get on the dock than leave a hook to step on.

Yes it is trespassing either way but you only if someone was an arsehole enough to press charges on your kid.
As far as the lure it depends on how good a lure it is!

The original question was is it trespassing. And yes it is so they are breaking the law.
It wasn't whether or not the property owner pressed charges that is the owners choice.

I believe you're wrong. Let's say there are two docks side by side. Identically built neither of them have a no trespassing sign or anything. One is owned by a resident one owned by a bait shop designed for boaters to come get bait. If someone stepped out onto the wrong dock is that Criminal trespass? If there is not a sign that says no trespassing I don't think it is criminal trespass. Big difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing. If what you are saying is correct it is illegal for me to walk into a business. Now if that business had told me stay off of our property and noted that with the police and I come back that's criminal trespassing. Void of signs a fence etc I do not believe that it is a criminal offense.

Well there is always one to argue. But Even if it is owned by a bait shop it is still private and you have to have have permission to be on it.
Believe me when I say I know it is trespassing. I own a dock and have had a problem when I first bought the place and learned this directly from the sheriff's office and game warden.
You don't paint your house purple or put signs on your porch but it is trespassing. The only exception is delivery of product, mail, door to door solicitation is legal but front door only. And of course LE.
A business is not a private boat dock, or a back porch or a yard in a neighborhood. Just because someone isn't there to ask you to stay off their property doesn't make it legal.
If you want to check this therory out come on out and hang out on my dock awhile.
Also I'm not an arse about it to people. I don't care if there is a storm for them to take shelter, or retrieve their lures. BUT it is still trepass to be on someones private property. Is there a difference between criminal trespass and just trespassing? I don't know but I do know that it isn't legal to trespass and if caught the landowner or dock owner can press charges. It is a misdomeaner in almost all cases so a fine would be written.

I'm pretty sure you have to give notice and they have to not heed the notice. I was instructed by deputy to paint every so many fence post purple cause the fence and locked gate wasnt sufficient on some land I own lol. I got no dog in the fight other than if you try to press charges on a person that was retrieving a lure or put his foot on dock trying to land a fish you are a giant a wipe. There is a section in tpwd that discusses the issue, it spells out 5 methods of notice.

I would think those 2 bullet points are fairly clear.

Send the GPS to your dock and I'll sun bath in the European bathing suit this summer.

When I was 17 I had a sheriff deputy tell me that the land underneath a corps of engineer soil conservation lake was private thusly I was trespassing on the lake though I never touched the property getting my flat bottom on the lake (it butted up to the Rd) sometimes locals don't know the law real well. Fyi

Ps I would never get out on someone's dock to retrieve a fish, bait etc etc just asking for trouble and it isn't right. But I don't think it's criminal.

Send me a PM when you come to Hubbard Creek and I’ll send you the dock cords. Then you can check out your theory. You will find out then.
And the sheriffs deputy was an idiot. Regardless of the lake the lake authority whether the corps or a river water authority buys or eminate domains that land before the lake is built so they own the land.

There is a difference in having to post up land as no trespassing and having an obviously private structure. By your comments and others on this post it would be ok to have lunch on someone’s back patio by their pool if the owners weren’t around and the property wasn’t posted.

Difference between not ok and a criminal offense.

According to what you're saying, I could have the girl scouts arrested for Knocking at my door.

This thread points out one obvious fact. you don't have to be smarter than a bass to catch one.

No solicitation is legal as is package delivery. It is not against the law to knock on a door.
That’s the problem with these threads to prove a point people go wayyyy overboard.
Do you or anyone else believe comparing a knock on your door which is basically asking permission to be on your property is the nearly the same as having a picnic by a strangers pool without permission?

Do you think having a picnic by a strangers pool is the same as getting on a dock long enough to undo a lure so no one steps on it.

No I actually don’t but the same law applies to both. Which is the OPs original post.

If you KNOWINGLY go on someone’s private property without asking for and receiving permission it is trespassing.

If it's not posted or the person has not been told how do you know it's someones private property. Hints the whole argument it's not punishable by law unless one of those things have been done. It's as simple as that someone even posted a link to the tpw law which you have refused to read.

Call me old fashion but I live by the rule if it isn’t yours, don’t touch it.

For you guys claiming it is criminal trespass, you should read this.

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-05.html

I would think number 11 on here covers a structure or dwelling in private property.
But that’s just me.

Read the first part carefully...

and the person:

had notice that the entry was forbidden;or

received notice to depart but failed to do so.

If neither of those conditions were met, then it's not criminal trespass.

I’m the same way keeps it simple and nothing to argue about. If I get a bait hung on a dock and I can’t get it off without getting on the dock or using the rod as a extension of my arm to get it then I break it off.

I have a long fishing pier and a boat house on a prominent point on Lake Livingston that gets fished multiple times every weekend that there is a bass tourney there because it holds fish. If you hang up on either one of them, I would much rather you do whatever is necessary to remove it than to break off and leave it there for one of my four kids, or their friends, to find it with their bare feet.

I do not know about now, but back in 1978 we had a club tourney 0n Toledo Bend, and had a confrontation about fishing a dock. When the warden showed up, he informed all parties involved. That T Bend was ruled by the SRA. And although the landowner may own the dock, he could not do anything about a person being on or under it if accessed by water. Do not take this as gospel for current times. But according to the Game Warden, it was law back then. I would say any, and every lake, could be different.