Seriously Low Cost Flies

As most of you already know, many of the flies available commercially are imported from countries such as Kenya, Thailand, the Philippines, etc. Fly tying is a labor intensive process; so basically, most commercial flies are tied wherever labor costs are low.

This post isn’t a discussion about the quality of the work. Some of the suppliers provide better quality than other suppliers and quite frankly I tie my own flies and I have no idea who does a good job and who doesn’t. This post is just aimed at the question of how low can you go for a dozen flies?

Especially on line, you can find some surprisingly low prices for flies. Often significantly lower than even the sale prices at the “big box” shops. So, obviously, these production fly tying operations must be VERY low cost.

But, has anyone ever wondered “how low cost they really are?”

I thought a few of you might find these links interesting. They are the websites for some of the factories that I think are in Kenya.

Notice that one of them offers dry flies for $2.50 a dozen and wet flies for $2.00 a dozen.

>> $2.00 a dozen????? <<

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I think it costs me more than $2.00 a dozen just for the raw materials and hooks.

Also, note that they offer a quantity discount for orders over 1,500 dozen. 1,500 dozen??? That’s a lifetime supply of flies for most of us around here… Except for Mick, of course.

Please note: I have not ordered from any of these companies. The only thing I know about them is that they bought an ad in this year’s issue of “2014 Black’s Fly Fishing Edition”, which is basically a directory of fly fishing industry suppliers, and they appear to offer retails sales. Other than that, buy at your own risk.

If any of you decide to place an order from any of these folks, let us know how it goes.

These are in no particular order:

http://www.johnfliesflyfactory.kingeshop.com/

http://www.serendibflies.com/

http://www.fliesperdozen.com/

Those are some insane prices. 12 bucks for a dozen saltwater flies? Makes you wonder about hook quality big time. Imagine hooking up to a fish of a lifetime only to have the hook fail because you wanted to save a few bucks.

What kind of hooks they are using is one of my questions. The price does make you wonder???

I'd use the flies but I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing a money transaction with any of them.

Tying flies that are good enougbh to fish with is not all that hard unless you're getting down into the "a dozen fit on a dime" size or some unusual patterns. It's a fine hobby and I strongly recommend it.

here's a site you don't have to worry about; the flies are even cheaper. I spent $50 on flies and theyre pretty good, especially for less than $2 a dozen-p-
http://www.fishandsave.com/

Well I don't know how they tie for such a cheap price, I have seen a few of these over the years and a lot will fall apart after a few casts etc. My problem is with the "slave labor" issue and what do the tyers actually get to make a living?
As is often the case cheap flies will mean chap materials............it stands to reason just like buying cheap clothes and tools.
Anglers that purchase flies from local tyers like that fact that they at least have seen a trout or large mouth and will often tie to match local hatches.
That's my two pennies worth as they say

Tight threads all
Mike

I agree chefmike; those who are tying those flies are not making enough to feed themselves; however, if they DON'T sell em at even that low price means they aren't getting paid anything; so a little is better than nothing. You are right; theyre cheep flies; won't hold up; but they'll catch a fish or two. I buy them; put some sally's on the head wraps and they'll be fine for brim and bass; caught a few trout on the streamers. If I tied up some of those same flies I would have to charge $15 to $20 a dozen just to make minimum wage and pay for my hooks and materials. I have read that in the USA the middle class are now shopping at the Dollar stores because they can no longer afford Wal-Mart. So, we may be heading in the same direction-p-

Well said Pearow..............
Mike

Not saying that these cheap flies are not made by 6 year old children working 18 hours/day, but...

There is actually another option of the origin of these flies. These could be a micro-business in a third world country, who makes these to survive. Micro-investors from developed countries make small investments that give some of these people a shot at making a living for themselves. The return on investment is slow and small. Anyway, I've seen this scenario with other hand-crafted items. Just remember, a couple dollars a day in some places in this world feeds your family.

Rex:

Interesting discussion. I know you are good at casting, and found that you cast an aspersion my way in your post. I resemble that remark.

I enjoy tying my own flies, though there are some patterns that I've given myself permission not to learn or tie -- they're either too small (size 26 Parachute Adams) or too labor intensive (like some of the fancy hopper patterns). In those cases, I'll find a commercial alternative.

Since I also tie for charity and donate several boxes of flies a year to charity events, I'll sometimes buy commercially to fill out a box needed on a short deadline.

My cheapest flies have come in bulk purchases, like one I made earlier this month, when I bought the last of a fly shop's inventory of flies. Frankly, I did not asked who tied them, though I know that some were tied locally and some came from Orvis, who gets most of theirs from overseas.

It's an issue certainly worth being aware of and factoring into one's buying decisions.

Thanks, Rex.

Hey Mick, I just figured 1,500 dozen was about the yearly output from your home vise.

I agree with you, there are some patterns that I just don't want to tie. I buy those patterns and other flies too from assorted fly shops. I have no doubt that I've bought flies that were made in similar factories and I'm sure most of the people reading this have too. Actually, if you buy flies from any retail location, I don't know how you'd avoid doing it. Even the major fly suppliers such as Rainey's and Umpqua use production facilities in Asia, but both of them have their own exclusive factories that they use.

I read an interview where one of the well known US fly tiers talked about visiting one of the factories to show them how to tie one of his new designs. The workers laughed at how slow of a tier he was. I guess if you want to be a commercial fly tyer, that you had better be FAST!

They all work on a piecework basis so I am told........the more they tie the more they get paid.
I might be the odd one out here but I have never brought a fly, I guess I like the challenge of tying something new, but I can certainly see why some tyers dont want to tie all their own flies especially size 28 dries etc.....
Mike

We are so "conditioned" to our affluent living that we cannot fathom a person making 25c a day wages. I am old enough to remember cotton picking time in South Arkansas; a grown man or woman would pick 100 pounds of cotton for 50c; they were proud to be able to pick 200/ 300 pounds in a day to feed their family. I was just a little boy then, but I remember thinking that was not very much money since my "allowance" was 25c a week.(for taking out the trash) I certainly don't mind it if I help some person in an undeveloped country make a little bit of money. It just might be that someday those roles might be reversed-p-

This is very true..................my son lives in the Philippines and $50 there goes a very long way........
Mike

chefmike love your new tag line. As a big Gierach fan who is also a fan of bamboo, I heartily agree!

Thanks Mickfly
Mike

Rex, your typically Texas exaggeration of my annual tying volume got me thinking about my actual output. It's probably closer to 1500 than 1500 dozen. Since I don't tie commercially and tie mostly for trips and donations, I never count.

I do have a quandary, though. Even though I have enough materials in my Tying Room to tie flies full time for the rest of my life, about every third fly I tie requires materials I don't have, necessitating further purchases. Do others have that problem?

Mick, that happens to me every time I want to tie. I'm always missing something.

That 1,500 dozen number came from the order size required to get a quantity discount from one of these suppliers. 18,000 flies is a whole lot of flies. And that makes me wonder how many flies a mom and pop style fly shop actually sells per year? If they are selling 18,000 flies a year, then just how many flies are we leaving in the trees and water when we go fishing???

The late, great Al Campbell of Fly Anglers Online wrote a column back in 2001 about "getting rich quick" via commercial fly tying. While he never answered the question you just asked, he did say that fly shops could by flies, even the best flies, for under $11 a dozen, and sources in Kenya and Asia were selling them for under $5 a dozen. He also did the math for someone who could tie a fly every five minutes and did so 10 hours a day, six days a week, all year (obviously an unrealistic dedication to tying), and sold them for $10.50 a dozen. Subtracting cost of materials, excise taxes, etc, you could make a bit over $18k/year. In other words, not as much as you could make at Whataburger, where you'd probably get health benefits and overtime.

I remember reading that article. I think there are easier ways to get rich than commercial fly tying...

I totally agree with you both..I have a few friends that have tied commercially and they lasted about 2 years before they gave up. Another friend of mine does make a very good living tying he ties realistic patterns that are used in most of the movies made in this country. With petra around the corner it seems that movie makers cannot use natural lnsects or bugs that might be harmed for a movie he also ties for interior designers in Europe as well as museums. A very talented guy and a great fisherman.
On the other question about materials I am the same..........I have 35 years collection of materials and still buy more for new patterns etc.
Mike

And yes, I just placed an order for more tying materials -- Spirit River UV2 Dubbing in a variety of colors.

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I'm encouraged to see the concern expressed for the laborers. Thank you for that. Wish it were clear whether we'd be helping or hurting by buying 17¢ flies.

Just yesterday, I ordered fly hooks (with "free" Cabela's credit card funny-money). Even on sale, the Gamakatsu barbless hooks were 19¢ a piece . . . more for bare hooks than the sweatshops or microbusinesses are charging for a completed fly.
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Mcfly and Rex...You guys are hitting seriously close to home on the fly tying materials. For instance most of my hooks are kept in a couple of 18 liter storage boxes and I just realized this morning that I need to order another thousand of the hooks that I tie the foam spiders on. For those that are just starting tying and think they are going to save money FORGET IT. I have 28 of those 18 liter boxes that store tying materials in what used to be my office at the house, and that dosen't count all the other materials stored in various drawers it that room.

On another subject some think ordering cheap flies on the internet is a good thing, but I look for the highest quality instead. I most often order just a few so I can fish a couple and keep one as an example to use for reference for my learning to tie that particular pattern. A couple of weeks ago I received a catalog from The Fly Box in Redding California and could not help but notice they had 25 pages of flys in their catalog. I have been a customer for many years and they have never screwed up an order to me. I may have to wander over to their web site one of these days, but there is no telling how much that will cost me.

Big Dale

Saving money. To save money on fishing, I say invest in a gillnet or possibly go high end with an electroshock machine. My sarcasm is crude but my point is, I'm in it for the enjoyment. Whenever I have obsessed over saving money, I've lost the fun. That's my personal opinion and it's worth possibly as high as two cents.

I decided to give some of these a shot and order some I didn't think I would ever tie, but wanted to try on the rivers here, and a few to put in a fly box for my bro in law who's new to fly fishing and gets hung up a lot . They came in yesterday, and was about what I expected. There were some that looked good and others I had to get the scissors to. Most were just in the OK range, but that's what you get for those pennies. I got some tapered leaders to give him since he's still learning. They were an off color as were a lot of the packaging, wasn't sure if that was really the color or not. Kinda like it's been in the window of a closed down fly shop for the last 10 years. Looked like some flies were made in Guatemala and the rest who knows, zip locked bags. The buggers were decent. I figured a dozen for 1.19, he can loose a few and not be too worried about it. Honest opinion though, I think i'll stick to my own, or from a reputable tier from now on. But I will have it bookmarked if I need to fill a quick box full of buggers and poppers for someone that has a tendency to hang them as ornaments in trees. Lesson learned. Go ahead with the "I told ya so's"

About $20 worth. Worth about $5.

put some head cement or sally's hard as nails on the heads; they'll last longer than you think-p-

Well said Aggro............as the saying goes......."you gets what ya pay for"..........
Mike

The Container Store loves to see me coming. I stop by frequently for another waterproof (bug and critter proof) container for my burgeoning selection of tying materials. My Tying Room is full, so I have had to resort to vertical stacking of boxes. I don't buy hooks by the thousands, like Dale does, but regularly order 500-700 at a time in 100 hook boxes.

Dale, speaking of The Fly Shop, they are one of my favorites as well. They pride themselves in having the largest fly selection in any catalog or website. One of the neat things about their site is that many of the pattern descriptions also contain lists of tying materials for those flies. I had the pleasure of visiting their shop in the late 1990s to meet a guide who took me out on the Lower Sacramento and helped me catch my biggest trout. Great shop!

Mike Mercer, one of their managers, is a gifted fly tyer and designer. He's also a super nice guy. I've made more than one phone call to him for advice on figuring out how to tie one of his patterns. Recently, he helped me with a special project. I was tying a fly box to auction off a Trout Unlimited fund raising dinner in San Francisco and asked his advice on what set of flies he would include in such a box for the local trout waters of northern California. He provided a detailed list and was more than helpful with the needed materials as well.

Another shop that I have used for many years is Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone and they do some of their flies with a different attitude. None of that Royal Coachman in sizes 4 thru 24 BS. I don't even remember which fly of theirs it is that is tied only in size 17.

I also share a love for the bamboo rods and the words of John Gierach.

Big Dale

So I wonder ... where do the Africans get the hooks they use? I have seen enough African flies to believe the hooks are sorry. Lot's of talk of "price," and no talk of quality? This thread seems like a more "trout-centric" fly conversation. I don't tie many of those, but I do tie warm water and saltwater flies - that are guaranteed to last.

Hey Aggroman, just out of curiosity, did you order from one of links in my original post or did you order from another location?

I'm with you Dale, that catalog is fun to look at. It has always been a good reference to look up what a fly looks like. Although, the internet has been taking over that task more and more.

I walked into a tackle shop in Taipei a few years ago and Gamakatsu hooks were just as expensive in Taiwan as they are here. I think it is a safe bet that for $2.50 a dozen, that you are not getting Gamakatus hooks.

I went back and looked and I got them from fishandsave.com. Not sure how or why it directed me to that one, because I used the links you posted, but ended up there. Went back and checked the sites and still can't figure it out. But they all seem about the same.

Scott