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Re: Studies on why Toledo Bend grass is disappearing [Re: Mark Perry] #14246340 01/12/22 12:39 AM
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I know for a fact they use 2 formula's. A cold water formula and warm water formula. They react differently when sprayed but I thought they were formulated to kill on contact. Not when dispersed. I think it's a combination of several things already mentioned. The contractors over sprayed since they get paid I'm sure by product amount. So collateral damage of pads, haygrass were most affected. The intense flooding another factor. They've been spraying north end of rayburn for 20+ years. They are years with the right level and clarity the grass grows like crazy in the same area that are heavily sprayed. Now I'm not saying there's zero impact, but the product used has shown to have no effect on subsurface vegetation. After these "floods" how much does the silting in of these aging lakes affect the grass being able to reestablish? These lakes aren't young and I know they are silted in like crazy in many of these creeks. It doesn't explain the main lake grass or lack thereof, but something has happened for sure.

Moritz Chevrolet - 9101 Camp Bowie W Blvd, Fort Worth, TX - Monte Coon (817) 696-2003
Re: Studies on why Toledo Bend grass is disappearing [Re: champ 206] #14246674 01/12/22 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by champ 206
Originally Posted by KenTx1962
I'm going to throw this out, kinda of left field but it actually makes some sense, would love to hear someone that knows more on the subject comment. This comes from Kelly Jordan when we spent a day together last year. He says that in the late 90's, 1998 I believe, that the type of broad leaf herbicides that farmers can use changed. I can't remember if he said it was regulated by the EPA, or the Department of Agriculture. But he believes that when they changed the formulas that could be used, and subsequently were used by farmers, that was the beginning of the decline due to runoff of those herbicides into our creeks, rivers and lakes. The timing makes sense as that in my mind is about when we started seeing the decline, but I have done absolutely zero fact checking on this nor do I believe Kelly had, just something he had heard and shared.

Broadleaf herbicides generally do not kill grass by design. There is not a lot of farming done in the Sabine watershed. If you think its herbicide spraying how does the overspray go up stream. Think Eastman in Longview.


Most of the submerged aquatic plants bass fishermen talk about hydrilla, coontail, milfoil, etc and call "grass" are actually no such thing. They are actually broadleaf weeds that can absolutely be affected by runoff of a broadleaf weed killer. With that said, I think that it's pretty rare in this day and age. Most of the highly water soluable formulations have been pulled off the market. It still happens I'm sure in the major row crop growing areas but it's nothing like it was a decade ago. Nutrient runoff is probably a bigger issue these days than actual herbicide.

As to Kens point I'm not 100% sure what herbicide he is talking about. I know around that time period a chemical known as Atrazine was getting lots of publicity. It is a preemergent Herbicide that was widely used in row crops as well as almost every weed and feed lawn fertilizer at that time. Lots of water supply managers were finding traces of it in drinking water. Ag took alot of the blame and some was justified. However they ended up finding that a large portion of the runoff from this particular chemical was actually coming from urban areas where people were horribly over applying their lawns. I have no doubt that this chemical could have had some pretty substantial impacts on aquatic vegetation. Now days most row crop farmers don't use products like Atrazine as much because of the roundup ready technology. I believe the water supply corporations in Texas still test for it so I'm sure that data that could be had if desired.

I personally think that most bass fishermen horribly underestimate the effects of water level on these aquatic plants. Rayburn is a good example. The fact that the super high water levels wiped out a big chunk of the main lake grass is the most predictable thing ever. You put 12ft of water on top of these plants and its going to kill them in most cases. We have seen it time after time on that lake. I'm not saying water level is the only thing going on but it's a big part of the puzzle that often gets overlooked on here.

Re: Studies on why Toledo Bend grass is disappearing [Re: Mark Perry] #14246716 01/12/22 02:19 PM
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I apply all kinds of herbicides as a landscape maintenance contractor and we are lucky to get 90 days of control (glysophate, dichloro-phenoxyacetic acid, halosulfuron-methyl, etc.). I can't imagine any herbicide applied per the label that would knock out an entire lake. Weather patterns contribute heavily to issues with weeds and my guess is that the high water killed more grass than any herbicide application did.

Last edited by TallBaldCypress; 01/12/22 02:22 PM.
Re: Studies on why Toledo Bend grass is disappearing [Re: champ 206] #14247088 01/12/22 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by champ 206
Originally Posted by KenTx1962
I'm going to throw this out, kinda of left field but it actually makes some sense, would love to hear someone that knows more on the subject comment. This comes from Kelly Jordan when we spent a day together last year. He says that in the late 90's, 1998 I believe, that the type of broad leaf herbicides that farmers can use changed. I can't remember if he said it was regulated by the EPA, or the Department of Agriculture. But he believes that when they changed the formulas that could be used, and subsequently were used by farmers, that was the beginning of the decline due to runoff of those herbicides into our creeks, rivers and lakes. The timing makes sense as that in my mind is about when we started seeing the decline, but I have done absolutely zero fact checking on this nor do I believe Kelly had, just something he had heard and shared.

Broadleaf herbicides generally do not kill grass by design. There is not a lot of farming done in the Sabine watershed. If you think its herbicide spraying how does the overspray go up stream. Think Eastman in Longview.

You are correct there is little to no farming. But there is lots of herbicide spayed on pastures and yards every year.

Re: Studies on why Toledo Bend grass is disappearing [Re: Mark Perry] #14247759 01/13/22 01:51 PM
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I am going to spin this a different way, we have all pointed at different reasons why we have lost the grass. I would like to hear or see some ways to get it back. How do we reverse the loss of the grass. Tennessee Bay used to be covered in it for many years I haven't seen any grass there in at least a decade. How do we get it back?

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