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LIthium - cranking battery #13866140 01/29/21 04:30 PM
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WattoFish Offline OP
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Curious to learn details/experience from anyone who has is utilizing a lithium cranking battery.

My current cranking battery appears to be failing and I'm considering replacing with a lithium. I'm looking at lithium as my storage unit does not offer electric hook up and lithium will hold a charge much longer than lead batteries.

My needs for this battery are not beyond the typical set up: appropriate CCA (Yamaha 225) and capacity to run two 12" Lowrance units.

I will continue to use my MK PC that is capable of charging lithium batteries using the AGM setting.

What brand lithium and specific model should I consider for my application?

Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13869599 02/01/21 04:56 PM
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Not the answer you are asking for:
Could you set up a solar charger outside of the storage unit and run the wires over to the battery for a trickle charge to help keep the battery toped off?
The trickle charge from a solar panel my provide you what you are needing for a fraction of the cost.

I guess one question I have is if you're not able to keep the new lithium battery on a maintenance type charge while at the storage unit, is it worth the extra $$ to go that route?


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Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13869650 02/01/21 05:24 PM
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That's a good question and from what I have read a lithium battery looses energy at a rate much less than a traditional lead battery. 1 month of sitting with no charge applied = 30% loss via lead battery vs. 3-5% loss via lithium.

A lead battery maintains voltage capacity up to 50% discharge while a lithium battery maintains voltage to an 80% discharge. Additionally a lead battery will take up to 500 charge cycles before it craps out whereas a lithium will take 1,000s. Now one would need to do the math to see how many traditional lead batteries you would run to equal or cost more than a lithium if you really want to get into the details; however, there are more benefits than just the cost comparison.

Another point I picked up on is with lead batteries you may have 100amh, but the reality is you only have 50amh because discharging a lead battery more than 50% leads to failure over time. Whereas a lithium battery with 100amh actually gives you more amp hours because the capacity it can deliver is 80% or 80amh. So a 30amh win for the lithium when comparing performance.

A lithium battery reaches full charge in a fraction of the time of a lead battery.

The lithium battery market is starting to see more competition and with that prices will come down, but there is a price you pay for being amongst the pioneers. The other reality is I will never have to think about this battery for the remainder of my ownership.

I would also add changing out the cranking battery in a 2018 Skeeter is a PITA.

Last edited by WattoFish; 02/01/21 05:28 PM.
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13869936 02/01/21 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WattoFish
That's a good question and from what I have read a lithium battery looses energy at a rate much less than a traditional lead battery. 1 month of sitting with no charge applied = 30% loss via lead battery vs. 3-5% loss via lithium.

A lead battery maintains voltage capacity up to 50% discharge while a lithium battery maintains voltage to an 80% discharge. Additionally a lead battery will take up to 500 charge cycles before it craps out whereas a lithium will take 1,000s. Now one would need to do the math to see how many traditional lead batteries you would run to equal or cost more than a lithium if you really want to get into the details; however, there are more benefits than just the cost comparison.

Another point I picked up on is with lead batteries you may have 100amh, but the reality is you only have 50amh because discharging a lead battery more than 50% leads to failure over time. Whereas a lithium battery with 100amh actually gives you more amp hours because the capacity it can deliver is 80% or 80amh. So a 30amh win for the lithium when comparing performance.

A lithium battery reaches full charge in a fraction of the time of a lead battery.

The lithium battery market is starting to see more competition and with that prices will come down, but there is a price you pay for being amongst the pioneers. The other reality is I will never have to think about this battery for the remainder of my ownership.

I would also add changing out the cranking battery in a 2018 Skeeter is a PITA.



The price has come down so much now they are almost a no brainer for many to go Lithium. cheers


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Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13870126 02/01/21 10:52 PM
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If you want the ability to see the charge left, you’ll have to go with Ionic (125 or 100) cranker. They are the only ones with with in technology to show that info (as far as I know).

Then you have Millertech or ReLion Tracker 100, I’m not sure if Dakota has a cranker, but they get horrible customer reviews anyways.

I’d go with the 125 Ionic, but you’re not running much with only 2 Lowrance graphs, so a 100 would be plenty. More doesn’t hurt though....

Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13874086 02/04/21 09:07 PM
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blue tooth or built in display are available on other lithium batteries.

ionics are just ordered from china there is someone else selling the same batteries with their sticker on them, I cant remember who but Ive seen at least one or two others..



https://www.monstermarinelithium.com/batteries

Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13874343 02/05/21 01:09 AM
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One thing you will need to check is your motor alternator output. And if your alternator is compatible with Lith batteries. If not, you could burn up your alternator and possibly more. You could also get a voltage regulator to ensure your Lith cranker is not getting to much or to little voltage as some alternators put out. Lithiums need a very narrow current to charge properly. Conventional chargers sometimes put out more voltage for wet cells than a lithium battery needs. AGM chargers are more consistent with voltage and charging. And much closer output to a lithium charger's output.

After much research, I just ordered my first lithium troller last night. I've been looking onto this for a couple of years now while waiting for a wet cell I have to finally die. The above is something I noticed in my reading. And I was told on a owner's forum not to put Lith cranking battery on my motor. Or it may burn up the motor. I now understand why.

I chose a Battle Born 100Ah troller battery for my 55 Terrova with B-T and I-Pilot on a 16ft G3 river Jon. I figure a 100Ah will get me by for more than a day or two. It also has a heater blanket built into it so it will charge in sub freezing weather. The heater blanket brings the weight up a couple of lbs (31lbs). But still not any where near the 65+ lbs of a standard 31 group wet cell or worse, AGM battery. I duck and deer hunt in the winter mornings. And sometimes fish mid day or the rest of a day. And after the season is over, fish, fish, fish during Feb, till May. February still has some freezing temps as we may see next week. Being able to go home and plug in the charger after dark and not have to worry to much about the temps is a plus for me. The heater circuit can be disconnected at any time. And reconnected at any time. I too, have a MK -PC. But ordered the lithium 15amp charger from them at the same time. They gave me a pretty good discount on the charger since I was buying the battery too. I'll have the Lithium charger for topping off the lithium battery since conventional chargers don't generally to that.

One other note: Make sure you get one designed for cranking if your going to use it for cranking. Battery damage can occur with some deep cycle Lithium batteries while trying to use them for cranking.


G3 river Jon - "The Wild Thing"

"The fish are biting, and there's hogs to be kilt. Gotta go!"
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: Texas Grown] #13876542 02/06/21 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas Grown
One thing you will need to check is your motor alternator output. And if your alternator is compatible with Lith batteries. If not, you could burn up your alternator and possibly more. You could also get a voltage regulator to ensure your Lith cranker is not getting to much or to little voltage as some alternators put out. Lithiums need a very narrow current to charge properly. Conventional chargers sometimes put out more voltage for wet cells than a lithium battery needs. AGM chargers are more consistent with voltage and charging. And much closer output to a lithium charger's output.

After much research, I just ordered my first lithium troller last night. I've been looking onto this for a couple of years now while waiting for a wet cell I have to finally die. The above is something I noticed in my reading. And I was told on a owner's forum not to put Lith cranking battery on my motor. Or it may burn up the motor. I now understand why.

I chose a Battle Born 100Ah troller battery for my 55 Terrova with B-T and I-Pilot on a 16ft G3 river Jon. I figure a 100Ah will get me by for more than a day or two. It also has a heater blanket built into it so it will charge in sub freezing weather. The heater blanket brings the weight up a couple of lbs (31lbs). But still not any where near the 65+ lbs of a standard 31 group wet cell or worse, AGM battery. I duck and deer hunt in the winter mornings. And sometimes fish mid day or the rest of a day. And after the season is over, fish, fish, fish during Feb, till May. February still has some freezing temps as we may see next week. Being able to go home and plug in the charger after dark and not have to worry to much about the temps is a plus for me. The heater circuit can be disconnected at any time. And reconnected at any time. I too, have a MK -PC. But ordered the lithium 15amp charger from them at the same time. They gave me a pretty good discount on the charger since I was buying the battery too. I'll have the Lithium charger for topping off the lithium battery since conventional chargers don't generally to that.

One other note: Make sure you get one designed for cranking if your going to use it for cranking. Battery damage can occur with some deep cycle Lithium batteries while trying to use them for cranking.



Youve gotten or chosen to believe a lot of misinformation.

A conventional charger will top off your lithium so long as it charges to 14.6 peak, which most chargers today do. It just wont charge it AS fast as a lithium programmed charger, but even then it would depend on the amps of your charger.

A lithium start battery wont burn up or hurt your motor, alternator etc. The alternator on the NEW mercury 4s was causing the lithiums to SHUT off to protect themselves. The charging system on the 4s is legit, look it up, it charges more at idle if your battery is low etc. It really works, Ive watched my lithium battery app while idling and gained 10 percent charge in 8 minutes at a high idle on a 135ah battery....










For Ionic 12V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 14.6 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 13.8 volts. For 24V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 29.2 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 27.6 volts. For 48V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 58.4 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 55.2 volts. Note that all 12V batteries above 12Ah, configured in Series, must be charged individually at 12V. Our 12V 12Ah battery has speci ic circuitry that will allow the batteries to be charged in series as conf charged with a 24V charger).

Slow or Fast charging
The charger voltage should always match the battery voltage or less. The newest Ionic chargers are designed to be left connected and powered on continuously. Chargers that do not have a “trickle charge” feature should be discontinued after the charging process is completed. To slow charge a battery use a charger with a amperage that about 10 percent of the batteries total amp-hours. To do a fast charge use a charger output that is about 40-45 percent of the batteries amp-hours of the batteries amp-hours. Slow charging results in lower battery temperatures and enhances the longevity of the battery and is therefore recommended by Ionic when possible. As an example, using a 100Ah battery, you would slow charge it by using a 10A charger and the battery would take about 10 hours to charge. You would fast charge it by using a 45A charger and it would charge in a little over 2 hours to charge. (See TABLE 5, PAGE 16 for our charger recommendations for each Ionic model)

Low temperatures
Many battery users are unaware that lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode during a sub-freezing charge. This is permanent and cannot be removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Lithium-ion batteries do warm up quickly with use as compared to lead-acid, so you may be able to get them above freezing with some use, allowing for a charge. It all depends on how cold of an environment you have and caution is advised.

Lithium-ion batteries capacity decreases when operating below freezing temperatures( 32F/ 0C). The current is still available, but the stored capacity will decrease. The colder the temperature the less capacity available. Both lead-acid and lithium-ion cells have increased internal resistance as the temperatures fall. Lithium batteries have more internal resistance in extreme cold temperatures of 0°F (-18°C) or lower, however, the batteries can be warmed up much quickly simply by putting a load on the battery, such as turning on your headlights for 15 to 30 seconds. Since Ionic batteries have substantially lower mass than lead-acid batteries, they warm up much quicker.

Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: Jeff From Iowa] #13877311 02/07/21 01:37 PM
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I have done some digging into both lithium Ion and lithium lifepo4 batteries. I understand the benefit of these batteries for trolling motors, electronics, live wells, ect but don't understand the benefit of a lithium cranking battery for boats over 16'. Obviously there is a weight advantage but the cost doesn't come close to comparing to a lead acid battery even though lithium LifePO4 batteries have come down in price.

What would be the reason anyone would consider a lithium cranking battery other than weight?


You get out of it what you put into it!
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: Jeff From Iowa] #13877387 02/07/21 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff From Iowa
Originally Posted by Texas Grown
One thing you will need to check is your motor alternator output. And if your alternator is compatible with Lith batteries. If not, you could burn up your alternator and possibly more. You could also get a voltage regulator to ensure your Lith cranker is not getting to much or to little voltage as some alternators put out. Lithiums need a very narrow current to charge properly. Conventional chargers sometimes put out more voltage for wet cells than a lithium battery needs. AGM chargers are more consistent with voltage and charging. And much closer output to a lithium charger's output.

After much research, I just ordered my first lithium troller last night. I've been looking onto this for a couple of years now while waiting for a wet cell I have to finally die. The above is something I noticed in my reading. And I was told on a owner's forum not to put Lith cranking battery on my motor. Or it may burn up the motor. I now understand why.

I chose a Battle Born 100Ah troller battery for my 55 Terrova with B-T and I-Pilot on a 16ft G3 river Jon. I figure a 100Ah will get me by for more than a day or two. It also has a heater blanket built into it so it will charge in sub freezing weather. The heater blanket brings the weight up a couple of lbs (31lbs). But still not any where near the 65+ lbs of a standard 31 group wet cell or worse, AGM battery. I duck and deer hunt in the winter mornings. And sometimes fish mid day or the rest of a day. And after the season is over, fish, fish, fish during Feb, till May. February still has some freezing temps as we may see next week. Being able to go home and plug in the charger after dark and not have to worry to much about the temps is a plus for me. The heater circuit can be disconnected at any time. And reconnected at any time. I too, have a MK -PC. But ordered the lithium 15amp charger from them at the same time. They gave me a pretty good discount on the charger since I was buying the battery too. I'll have the Lithium charger for topping off the lithium battery since conventional chargers don't generally to that.

One other note: Make sure you get one designed for cranking if your going to use it for cranking. Battery damage can occur with some deep cycle Lithium batteries while trying to use them for cranking.



Youve gotten or chosen to believe a lot of misinformation.

A conventional charger will top off your lithium so long as it charges to 14.6 peak, which most chargers today do. It just wont charge it AS fast as a lithium programmed charger, but even then it would depend on the amps of your charger.

A lithium start battery wont burn up or hurt your motor, alternator etc. The alternator on the NEW mercury 4s was causing the lithiums to SHUT off to protect themselves. The charging system on the 4s is legit, look it up, it charges more at idle if your battery is low etc. It really works, Ive watched my lithium battery app while idling and gained 10 percent charge in 8 minutes at a high idle on a 135ah battery....










For Ionic 12V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 14.6 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 13.8 volts. For 24V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 29.2 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 27.6 volts. For 48V Deep Cycle batteries, you should set your charger profile to charge up to 58.4 volts for 30 minutes and then float charge at 55.2 volts. Note that all 12V batteries above 12Ah, configured in Series, must be charged individually at 12V. Our 12V 12Ah battery has speci ic circuitry that will allow the batteries to be charged in series as conf charged with a 24V charger).

Slow or Fast charging
The charger voltage should always match the battery voltage or less. The newest Ionic chargers are designed to be left connected and powered on continuously. Chargers that do not have a “trickle charge” feature should be discontinued after the charging process is completed. To slow charge a battery use a charger with a amperage that about 10 percent of the batteries total amp-hours. To do a fast charge use a charger output that is about 40-45 percent of the batteries amp-hours of the batteries amp-hours. Slow charging results in lower battery temperatures and enhances the longevity of the battery and is therefore recommended by Ionic when possible. As an example, using a 100Ah battery, you would slow charge it by using a 10A charger and the battery would take about 10 hours to charge. You would fast charge it by using a 45A charger and it would charge in a little over 2 hours to charge. (See TABLE 5, PAGE 16 for our charger recommendations for each Ionic model)

Low temperatures
Many battery users are unaware that lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode during a sub-freezing charge. This is permanent and cannot be removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Lithium-ion batteries do warm up quickly with use as compared to lead-acid, so you may be able to get them above freezing with some use, allowing for a charge. It all depends on how cold of an environment you have and caution is advised.

Lithium-ion batteries capacity decreases when operating below freezing temperatures( 32F/ 0C). The current is still available, but the stored capacity will decrease. The colder the temperature the less capacity available. Both lead-acid and lithium-ion cells have increased internal resistance as the temperatures fall. Lithium batteries have more internal resistance in extreme cold temperatures of 0°F (-18°C) or lower, however, the batteries can be warmed up much quickly simply by putting a load on the battery, such as turning on your headlights for 15 to 30 seconds. Since Ionic batteries have substantially lower mass than lead-acid batteries, they warm up much quicker.


You have a lot of good information in your post smile. But, not all motor alternators/chargers are created equal. Same with brands of motors and equipment. Same with Battery chargers. Some folks run older stuff, like my self. If you're looking at strictly current or new equipment, most will handle it. Not everybody runs that kind of equipment. Heck, I've got a charger from back in the 1970s I still use. Would you trust it to top off your Lithium batteries? I was just hoping folks wouldn't assume every thing will work, only to wind up with problems. As to information, I've been reading about them from several major brands over the last few years including Ionic and several others. I believe the key word was "could" in my third sentence. And what is a "conventional" charger (as I stated)? Most importantly, don't assume. smile

Be blessed. And hope your season is a great one. smile


G3 river Jon - "The Wild Thing"

"The fish are biting, and there's hogs to be kilt. Gotta go!"
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: Jerry713] #13878078 02/08/21 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry713
I have done some digging into both lithium Ion and lithium lifepo4 batteries. I understand the benefit of these batteries for trolling motors, electronics, live wells, ect but don't understand the benefit of a lithium cranking battery for boats over 16'. Obviously there is a weight advantage but the cost doesn't come close to comparing to a lead acid battery even though lithium LifePO4 batteries have come down in price.

What would be the reason anyone would consider a lithium cranking battery other than weight?


Most everyone has their electronis hooked to the cranking battery unless they have a 4th or 5th battery dedicated to electronics. cheers

If you run 3, 4, 5+ graphs on your boat and are running Livescope, Mega 360, or LiveSight then a regular battery might not be enough.


2016 Ranger RT188 Charcoal Metallic Dual Console
2017 Yamaha 115 VMAX SHO (VF115LA) SS Prop
Minn Kota Ultrex i-Pilot Link 45" 80 lb.
Humminbird Helix 10 Mega SI BalZout Console
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Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: BigDozer66] #13878158 02/08/21 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BigDozer66
Originally Posted by Jerry713
I have done some digging into both lithium Ion and lithium lifepo4 batteries. I understand the benefit of these batteries for trolling motors, electronics, live wells, ect but don't understand the benefit of a lithium cranking battery for boats over 16'. Obviously there is a weight advantage but the cost doesn't come close to comparing to a lead acid battery even though lithium LifePO4 batteries have come down in price.

What would be the reason anyone would consider a lithium cranking battery other than weight?


Most everyone has their electronis hooked to the cranking battery unless they have a 4th or 5th battery dedicated to electronics. cheers

If you run 3, 4, 5+ graphs on your boat and are running Livescope, Mega 360, or LiveSight then a regular battery might not be enough.




Yep, what he said.

Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: grout-scout] #13878184 02/08/21 02:37 AM
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Gotcha


You get out of it what you put into it!
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13880100 02/09/21 04:15 PM
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One lithium start battery for $800 or two huge 70 lb agm at over $400 each...

The lithium re charges faster so that alone is enough reason, when you make a short run with a 4s mercury your gaining 10 percent or more of a charge on that lithium battery.

Last edited by Jeff From Iowa; 02/09/21 04:16 PM.
Re: LIthium - cranking battery [Re: WattoFish] #13880113 02/09/21 04:22 PM
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You were arguing recently that one Group 31 AGM should be enough. (They're $159 at Sam's Club), now it's two?
BTW, some of us can't see the dollar sense in getting rid of a functioning 2-cycle outboard to get a 4-cycle replacement.

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