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My thoughts on current events #13592645 06/12/20 06:27 PM
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Uncle Zeek Offline OP
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First off, deaths like that of George Floyd are inexcusable. No matter what kind of criminal history he had, and no matter what offense he had or had not committed, nobody deserves to die like that. I don’t think that there is a reasonable person in this country who would argue that he should have been killed like that, and the peaceful protests and demonstrations are worthwhile. But I disagree with the violent, tyrannical mobs that are rampaging, murdering, and destroying America well out of proportion to his death, not to mention the self-appointed crusaders who denounce any dissent or disagreement as racist. Calling someone a racist nowadays is a great way to destroy lives, end careers, and reminds me of the tactics used by the brownshirts in Germany. This will no doubt draw the ire of some of my colleagues, but there is a pernicious evil rising in our society. An Orwellian thought control mentality that denies the possibility of true diversity and which wants to strip away our fundamental rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. It’s tough to enjoy these rights without the protection of law in our society.

Facts:

The US has had a policy of a “war on drugs” since the Ronald Reagan years. You wage war on people, not inanimate things, and unfortunately police are often trained to react to people as though they enemy combatants. Additionally, because of the violent criminals police often encounter, they are sometimes conditioned through these incidents to see everyone as a potential threat.

There are approximately 800,000 law enforcement officers in the US.

There are approximately 328,000,000 people in the US, of which the US Census says about 254,700,000 are legal adults.

There are approximately 50,000,000 police encounters with citizens and civilians each year – these encounters include traffic stops and other routine police work.

There are approximately 10,000,000 arrests made each year (the number has declined over the last decade and used to be much higher).

Approximately 160 law enforcement officers are killed in the line of duty every year, and law enforcement officers shoot approximately 1,000 people a year in the course of their duty. The overwhelming majority of these people are armed. So the number of people shot by police represent approximately one-one hundredth of a percent of all arrests made. In addition, the UK Guardian concluded that police kill another 100 or so people per year by other means. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9

The Washington Post tracked police shootings from 2015-2019 and determined that in those four years, there were 352 shootings of unarmed suspects. Including the 100 per year reported by the Guardian, that’s about 188 unarmed people killed by police per year. That means that over 90% of police shootings are probably justified (you can decide for yourself when you’re faced with someone pointing a gun at you what’s justified or not).

Of these 352 deaths, approximately 30% were black suspects (that’s the term used by the Post – if you prefer “African-American” or some other term, please feel free to substitute it). The US Census shows that approximately 13.4% of the US population is black.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...c-a67c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

Yes, it is true that black suspects in this very small group are killed at a little over twice the level of their proportion of the population. Maybe that does indeed point to racism. Maybe it points to social problems – lack of a good education, housing, or other needs – that these unfortunate souls needed. Maybe it points to something else entirely.

Should we expect these deaths to align with US Census demographic figures? I can’t think of a reason that they should be out of proportion, but I also can’t think of a reason that they should be in proportion either. Do people commit crimes in proportion to their demographics? Do they get stopped by police in proportion to their demographics?

According to an organization that tracks police shootings, in 2017, the total number of police shootings was 987, of which 457 (46%) were white, 223 (23%) were black, and 179 (18%) were Hispanic. The remainder were categorized as “other” or “unknown”.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Could these facts mean that our police departments are riddled with systemic racism, and actively seek to kill black people? Possibly. But given these statistics, isn’t it also possible that these numbers reflect the actions of a few bad cops, along with some poor judgement on the part of others? And is it rational or reasonable to call someone a "racist" for being open-minded to both possibilities?

If our police departments were truly as evil as the media is making them out to be, and actively sought to kill civilians, the number of people killed by police should easily be in the tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 per year. If police departments were truly shot through with systemic racism, as opposed to having a few bad cops, and poor judgment by others, wouldn’t the number of unarmed black people killed by police be mind-numbingly high as well?

Occam’s razor teaches that the simplest explanation is often correct (though not always). Systemic racism is not the simplest answer to the facts laid out. Yes, individual deaths such as George Floyd are tragic and should not happen. But to demonize all police as racist based on a handful of incidents (188 deaths out of 50,000,000 encounters or 10,000,000 arrests is a handful) oversimplifies the matter and is unfair to the overwhelming majority of cops who do the right thing every day.

Another way to look at this is that about 1,100 police kill a civilian each year. That means that 798,900 police did not kill someone. Put another way, 99.86% of police did not kill anyone at all last year - justified or not. That does not sound like organizations that seek to execute people on a regular basis. Likewise, it doesn’t strike me as rising to the level of systemic racism either.

One argument put forth against systemic racism is the rate of black-on-black murder. It’s irrelevant, but not for the reasons that leftists scream about. There are about 15,000 to 16,000 murders every year. The vast majority of these murders fall into either “white killer, white victim” or “black killer, black victim”. This means that murderers are more likely to kill someone of their own ethnicity, for whatever reason. And it has nothing to do with the reasons that a cop kills someone in the line of duty. But it is significant for another reason: if we get rid of police, by whatever name – defund, disband, abolish, etc – the number of murders will go up. Absolutely, positively, guaranteed. The number of murders will go up by a multiple of the number of police-caused deaths, and many, MANY of those murder victims will be black, just as many will be white, or other races.

I honestly don’t know how to prevent the small number of unnecessary deaths caused by police each year. Perhaps we need to step back from trying to have police wage a war on drugs. Perhaps we need to reevaluate the use of various forms of non-lethal force (a restraint hold applied for long enough can maim or kill). Maybe police need to start using Tasers more often to incapacitate uncooperative suspects. Once someone has been tased, it’s much easier to handcuff them without using bodily force. Maybe police need to use Tasers less often, because sometimes it causes injury to the suspect.

Back to that pernicious evil – I don’t mean some nefarious, identifiable person like an Emperor Palpatine. I just mean evil people in general. That evil wants to strip Americans of the protection of law and will gladly use tragedies such as George Floyd’s death to further it’s goals. One step is to disarm citizens, turning them into civilians. Another step is to remove police, so there is nobody to respond to crime. A disarmed populace with no police is easy pickings for those who would seek to destroy our republic. Standing by and remaining silent in the face of such evil is to be complicit in the destruction of our nation. We can’t allow this to happen, for the sake of everyone in our country: white, black, brown, yellow, red, plaid, or whatever color you happen to be.


Last edited by Uncle Zeek; 06/13/20 01:08 PM. Reason: fixed a couple bits

"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein
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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592661 06/12/20 06:33 PM
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Well said Counselor.


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592666 06/12/20 06:37 PM
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Seems like a violent counter reaction is being begged for. The Covid-19 was waning then all of a sudden a cop in Minnesota lit up the entire country. I think it was organized to create chaos before the election. It is all about power and control. I think the regular people are getting pushed too far.

Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592679 06/12/20 06:55 PM
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Very well stated and spot on IMO.

The other part that some may be forgetting, is the number of people that support this chaos, but are not on the streets. It's amazing there are that many people out there, I hope and pray they really don't support it but don't condemn it publicly because it would show some level of support for Trump, but I don't know for sure. I do know I stayed up way late last night with my landlord and the other tenant drinking too much bourbon, discussing islam and how much they hate Trump. It got a little heated, but I will say this, they never talked bad about anything going on in Seattle or anywhere else. Do they support it? My gut is leaning to yes, one of them is so anti American and anti Trump it's sickening, I've offered to pay for her a first class one way flight to Frankfurt in exchange for a contract denouncing her citizenship when she got real riled up one night, of course that never happend.

Point is, I'm not so sure there aren't a bunch of silent supporters of this chaos. I told them last night, if a truck pulled up and 5 guys got out with baseball bats or even guns, and they were part of this "movement", what are you gonna do? Wave a flag and tell them you're on their side? Do you think they'll believe you? I told them I'm very well supplied in the defense area and I can handle something like that if I have to, are you?

Blank stares...... funny how you can finally say the right words to someone and you see gears moving and lightbulbs coming on.


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592688 06/12/20 07:17 PM
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I think you are trying to explain f'd up and I'm not sure that's possible. There are issues on both sides of the argument and statistics and data really dont get to the heart of the matter. Truth is there isnt alot of truth being told by either side. We talk around it. It's not gonna change.

Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: WAWI] #13592709 06/12/20 07:40 PM
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Uncle Zeek Offline OP
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Originally Posted by WAWI
I think you are trying to explain f'd up and I'm not sure that's possible. There are issues on both sides of the argument and statistics and data really dont get to the heart of the matter. Truth is there isnt alot of truth being told by either side. We talk around it. It's not gonna change.


The simple truth is that there are some bad cops. I'm not sure that will ever change, as bad people are a part of life. But having some bad cops does not make all police racist, nor does it make entire police departments guilty of deliberate, systematic executions of civilians.


"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein
Artim Law Firm, PLLC
Estate planning & tax attorney
2250 Morriss Road, Suite 205, Flower Mound, Texas 75028
972-746-0758 mobile
zac@artimlegal.com
Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592719 06/12/20 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Zeek
Originally Posted by WAWI
I think you are trying to explain f'd up and I'm not sure that's possible. There are issues on both sides of the argument and statistics and data really dont get to the heart of the matter. Truth is there isnt alot of truth being told by either side. We talk around it. It's not gonna change.


The simple truth is that there are some bad cops. I'm not sure that will ever change, as bad people are a part of life. But having some bad cops does not make all police racist, nor does it make entire police departments guilty of deliberate, systematic executions of civilians.


There are bad cops, there are bad people, there are people with bad motivations, there are racist people, there are people who seek to take advantage of circumstances for political or financial gain. Nobody will admit to being one of these people on either side of the debate. Nobody is gonna change. It's sad but its reality. I think you learn to operate within it or you beat your head against the wall. I'm not arguing either side. I'm just calling it like I see it. We could all try a little harder I think but I doubt it happens.

Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592720 06/12/20 07:58 PM
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Well said Zac


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592724 06/12/20 08:03 PM
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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592754 06/12/20 08:27 PM
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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Pilothawk] #13592764 06/12/20 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilothawk
Well said Counselor.


Agree.


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592788 06/12/20 08:58 PM
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20% of encounters result in arrest? Wow! Sounds like we need citizen reform more than anything else.

Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592801 06/12/20 09:14 PM
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A big problem I see is the glorification of uncompromising extremes.
Everybody has to yell and highlight their kickA, hardcore opinions

Even keeled moderation isn’t cool, it doesn’t sell, doesn’t get clicks or screen time and will attract venom from both sides
Moderates get labeled as apathetic, tired, and dispassionate by the extremists

Moderation is a virtue and is how nature works.
Eat too much, you get fat and die, don’t eat enough, you die. The right amount is somewhere in the middle.
Exercise too much and you’ll get a heart attack, don’t exercise at all and you’ll suffer heart failure. The right amount is somewhere in the middle.


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: Uncle Zeek] #13592811 06/12/20 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Zeek
First off, deaths like that of George Floyd are inexcusable. No matter what kind of criminal history he had, and no matter what offense he had or had not committed, nobody deserves to die like that. I don’t think that there is a reasonable person in this country who would argue that he should have been killed like that. But I disagree with the vocal, almost tyrannical, mobs that are rampaging, murdering, and destroying America well out of proportion to his death, not to mention the self-appointed crusaders who denounce any dissent or disagreement as racist. Calling someone a racist nowadays is a great way to destroy lives, end careers, and reminds me of the tactics used by the brownshirts in Germany. This will no doubt draw the ire of some of my colleagues, but there is a pernicious evil rising in our society. An Orwellian thought control mentality that denies the possibility of true diversity and which wants to strip away our fundamental rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. It’s tough to enjoy these rights without the protection of law in our society.

Facts:

The US has had a policy of a “war on drugs” since the Ronald Reagan years. You wage war on people, not inanimate things, and unfortunately police are often trained to react to people as though they enemy combatants. Additionally, because of the violent criminals police often encounter, they are sometimes conditioned through these incidents to see everyone as a potential threat.

There are approximately 800,000 law enforcement officers in the US.

There are approximately 328,000,000 people in the US, of which the US Census says about 254,700,000 are legal adults.

There are approximately 50,000,000 police encounters with citizens and civilians each year – these encounters include traffic stops and other routine police work.

There are approximately 10,000,000 arrests made each year (the number has declined over the last decade and used to be much higher).

Approximately 160 law enforcement officers are killed in the line of duty every year, and law enforcement officers shoot approximately 1,000 people a year in the course of their duty. The overwhelming majority of these people are armed. So the number of people shot by police represent approximately one-one hundredth of a percent of all arrests made. In addition, the UK Guardian concluded that police kill another 100 or so people per year by other means. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9

The Washington Post tracked police shootings from 2015-2019 and determined that in those four years, there were 352 shootings of unarmed suspects. Including the 100 per year reported by the Guardian. That’s about 188 unarmed people killed by police per year. That means that over 90% of police shootings are probably justified (you can decide for yourself when you’re faced with someone pointing a gun at you what’s justified or not).

Of these 352 deaths, approximately 30% were black suspects (that’s the term used by the Post – if you prefer “African-American” or some other term, please feel free to substitute it). The US Census shows that approximately 13.4% of the US population is black.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...c-a67c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

Yes, it is true that black suspects in this very small group are killed at a little over twice the level of their proportion of the population. Maybe that does indeed point to racism. Maybe it points to social problems – lack of a good education, housing, or other needs – that these unfortunate souls needed. Maybe it points to something else entirely.

Should we expect these deaths to align with US Census demographic figures? I can’t think of a reason that they should be out of proportion, but I also can’t think of a reason that they should be in proportion either. Do people commit crimes in proportion to their demographics? Do they get stopped by police in proportion to their demographics?

According to an organization that tracks police shootings, in 2017, the total number of police shootings was 987, of which 457 (46%) were white, 223 (23%) were black, and 179 (18%) were Hispanic. The remainder were categorized as “other” or “unknown”.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Could these facts mean that our police departments are riddled with systemic racism, and actively seek to kill black people? Possibly. But given these statistics, isn’t it also possible that these numbers reflect the actions of a few bad cops, along with some poor judgement on the part of others? And is it rational or reasonable to call someone a "racist" for being open-minded to both possibilities?

If our police departments were truly as evil as the media is making them out to be, and actively sought to kill civilians, the number of people killed by police should easily be 10,000 or even 100,000 per year. If police departments were truly shot through with systemic racism, as opposed to having a few bad cops, and poor judgment by others, wouldn’t the number of unarmed black people killed by police be mind-numbingly high as well?

Occam’s razor teaches that the simplest explanation is often correct (though not always). Systemic racism is not the simplest answer to the facts laid out. Yes, individual deaths such as George Floyd are tragic and should not happen. But to demonize all police as racist based on a handful of incidents (188 deaths out of 50,000,000 encounters or 10,000,000 arrests is a handful) oversimplifies the matter and is unfair to the overwhelming majority of cops who do the right thing every day.

Another way to look at this is that about 1,100 police kill a civilian each year. That means that 798,900 police did not kill someone. Put another way, 99.86% of police did not kill anyone at all last year - justified or not. That does not sound like organizations that seek to execute people on a regular basis. Likewise, it doesn’t strike me as rising to the level of systemic racism either.

One argument put forth against systemic racism is the rate of black-on-black murder. It’s irrelevant, but not for the reasons that leftists scream about. There are about 15,000 to 16,000 murders every year. The vast majority of these murders fall into either “white killer, white victim” or “black killer, black victim”. This means that murderers are more likely to kill someone of their own ethnicity, for whatever reason. And it has nothing to do with the reasons that a cop kills someone in the line of duty. But it is significant for another reason: if we get rid of police, by whatever name – defund, disband, etc – the number of murders will go up. Absolutely, positively, guaranteed. The number of murders will go up by a multiple of the number of police-caused deaths, and many, MANY of those murder victims will be black, just as many will be white, or other races.

I honestly don’t know how to prevent the small number of unnecessary deaths caused by police each year. Perhaps we need to step back from trying to have police wage a war on drugs. Perhaps we need to reevaluate the use of various forms of non-lethal force (a restraint hold applied for long enough can maim or kill). Maybe police need to start using Tasers more often to incapacitate uncooperative suspects. Once someone has been tased, it’s much easier to handcuff them without using bodily force. Maybe police need to use Tasers less often, because sometimes it causes injury to the suspect.

Back to that pernicious evil – I don’t mean some nefarious, identifiable person like an Emperor Palpatine. I just mean evil people in general. That evil wants to strip Americans of the protection of law and will gladly use tragedies such as George Floyd’s death to further it’s goals. One step is to disarm citizens, turning them into civilians. Another step is to remove police, so there is nobody to respond to crime. A disarmed populace with no police is easy pickings for those who would seek to destroy our republic. Standing by and remaining silent in the face of such evil is to be complicit in the destruction of our nation. We can’t allow this to happen, for the sake of everyone in our country: white, black, brown, yellow, red, plaid, or whatever color you happen to be.



You nailed it. Well said, sir.

Originally Posted by Uncle Zeek
Originally Posted by WAWI
I think you are trying to explain f'd up and I'm not sure that's possible. There are issues on both sides of the argument and statistics and data really dont get to the heart of the matter. Truth is there isnt alot of truth being told by either side. We talk around it. It's not gonna change.


The simple truth is that there are some bad cops. I'm not sure that will ever change, as bad people are a part of life. But having some bad cops does not make all police racist, nor does it make entire police departments guilty of deliberate, systematic executions of civilians.


I, like WAWI, call it like I see it. There are bad cops, bad shoots, mistakes made, etc. There is a reluctance by some people to not identify actions as wrong, or to try to justify them when there is no reason to. Like you said, 99% of cops are good.

I think it comes from a fear of being accused of not backing the blue more so than anything else (including racism). In my opinion, calling out bad cops is backing the blue when you consider the damage bad cops do to the hard work and important work 99.9% of cops do.

No one is infallible and everyone makes mistakes. It’s a part of life, but dismissing mistakes doesn’t help anyone.

I back the blue. I respect the hell out of people who put their lives on the line for everyone else (and it’s a job I sure as hell couldn't do). Just like in every part of life, some (a minuscule amount, as you showed in your OP) make egregious mistakes (or are flat out are bad people) and deserve to be called out for it. I will never understand abandoning the principles of right and wrong to show support for someone who committed a wrong. Dying in police custody shouldn’t happen unless there is a clear danger to the officers or civilian.

George Floyd was handcuffed and, per Chauvin’s arrest report, resisting by laying on the ground. His pulse stopped for almost three minutes while an officer continued to kneel on his neck. Amber Guyger shot a man in his own apartment by mistake. These are not things that should happen and they especially shouldn’t be excused, yet I’ve seen people bend over backwards trying to defend or find a justification for the officers’ actions.

I agree with you on the rioting and looting. It’s inexcusable and I believe there is something going on behind the scenes to, as you said, strip Americans of the protection of law.


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Re: My thoughts on current events [Re: CCTX] #13592813 06/12/20 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CCTX
A big problem I see is the glorification of uncompromising extremes.
Everybody has to yell and highlight their kickA, hardcore opinions

Even keeled moderation isn’t cool, it doesn’t sell, doesn’t get clicks or screen time and will attract venom from both sides
Moderates get labeled as apathetic, tired, and dispassionate by the extremists

Moderation is a virtue and is how nature works.
Eat too much, you get fat and die, don’t eat enough, you die. The right amount is somewhere in the middle.
Exercise too much and you’ll get a heart attack, don’t exercise at all and you’ll suffer heart failure. The right amount is somewhere in the middle.


This is also a big part of our culture today. Compelled agreement and cancel culture are ridiculous and ruining lives. Well said.


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