Finley and his Dad were kind enough to come out to Ray Hubbard last year and show me how they use hair rigs and other Euro gear to catch carp and buffs off the back of my sailboat in the Marina. I've been refining the gear and rigs to fit my situation...20 + ft of water in the same"tight" location. There are also floating platforms within the marina that small groups could target carp, though I can't say I've ever seen others carp fishing. It's pretty effective, and fun, I'd like to share how vertical, deeper water carping is a bit different than Euro style bank fishing.

Rods - I bought a couple cheap 6 ft med. heavy fiberglass casting rods. You need some backbone because you can't allow large fish to run far or they will fowl you on nearby boats and
structure. Shorter rods work better. Rod holders are pretty important...the fish often hook themselves and that first run is very strong. I set my drag pretty firm.

Reels - I have a couple of Okuma Level Wind reels with star drags, which really help adjust the drag quickly. I think this is pretty important, but many bait casting reels have similar features.

Running line - I use 40 # braid. I'm not casting...just stripping out line as my rig drops straight down. Braid is thin and strong compared to mono.

Leader - I use about 24 inches of 20-25 # mono. If I get snagged, I want the mono to break...not the braid.

Weight - I use a 1 oz. flat lead sinker...commonly used for cat fish. I use packbait on this, and because I'm not casting, it doesn't need to have the same consistency as needed for method feeder.

Hooks - I use sz 6-8 heavy wire scud hooks I get from Allen - N203

Hair rigs - The same 25 # mono with a small braid hair. Braid is more supple so it's easier to bait. Mine are very basic...I can tie one up in a minute or two.

Stops and baiting needle - I cut little "bow ties" out of yellow craft foam. I also use a crochet needle to bait...cheap...Hobby Lobby. Print a 40 % off coupon...

Pre Bait and Bait - Boiled deer corn or sweet corn. It drops straight down. I set-up a rod in holder on each side of the boat, so that's where I chum...in small areas straight down. I know a lot of folks use range cubes, but I don't know how that's going to behave in 20 ft of water. It's on my list to try. I usually toss out 2 #s (dry) of deer corn at the end of each session if I'm fishing the next day, and a handful or two right when I get to the boat.

Packbait - The two main ingredients I use are quick oats and store brand Fruit Loops. I often use the juice left over from the boiled corn as well...maybe Jello, vanilla. I like the Fruit loops because they float out...I figure it helps attract foraging fish. I always mash some boiled corm into the packbait before I glob it around the sinker. Since I'm not casting, it can be pretty dry until the corn juice from squeezing in the kernels firms it up.

Rigs - Based on some recent posts, I'd say I use a Helicopter rig...weight on the bottom...hook link of 4 in. of stiff mono tied directly into the leader about 6 in. up from the weight. The stiff mono holds it out from the main leader. I can see it extended above as I lower it, so I don't stick the hook into the packbait as bank casters might. Lately, I'm using a nail knot which I can slide to change the depth. I might use a fixed knot once I find the best distance from the sinker based on how slack I'm fishing, which is based on wind and whether I'm picking up weeds.

Net - I bought a large Frabill net that works well from the boat. Pretty critical as I have to control the fish while netting.

I guess my overall point is, if you access to a marina, the same gear used for bass and catfish should work pretty well, and I do get some catfish and buffs. Hair rigs don't seem to get swallowed by the cats, and that's a real benefit. None of the stuff I use is carp specialized, and can be bought at any tackle/craft store. You do need heavy wire hooks you might have to order...like $4 for 25 from Allen. I sharpen them with a nail file frequently, especially if I'm getting hard bites but not hooking fish.

I agree, you don't need carp-specific gear to target them with euro methods. One thing I would say is the bait runner reels are a worthy investment; it lets you set rear drag to a light setting to accommodate that hit / initial run and a simple flip of the lever above it (or one turn of the reel's handle) will engage the front drag (your "fighting" drag). Without this you easily risk losing a rod if your drag is tight (it's happened to me!) or the fish breaking off. On the flipside, if it's too light, the initial run can cause you to birdsnest (spinning or baitcasting, doesn't matter - also have had this happen); even if your drag is set right, you'll still have to tighten it down manually once the fish is on - with the bait runners it's just way more convenient to be able to flip the lever or turn the handle to get the fighting drag you had preset. Also agree on the hooks being very important; they need to be very sharp and heavy. I've caught numerous double digit carp (including my PB of 20 lbs), buffs and even large channel cats on a tiny size 12 carp-specific hook without issue (Korda Krank series - I like them because you don't need one of those hook aligners).

But yes, the other stuff isn't super necessary. MH rod, a simple sliding sinker rig like you'd use for catfish (egg sinker holds pack bait fine), and a hair rig. If you're going to invest in something it should be a quality reel with a good drag system, preferably a bait runner (Daiwa Regal BRI is like $50 and IMO an incredible reel for the money), and your hooks.

Awesome stuff Bob! Love the amount of detail. Vertical fishing is no doubt very different from bank fishing and using different techniques could definitely increase your catch rate

Have you tried fishing without any weight? You should be able to get fish up to the surface much faster that way!

Back when I had access to marina fishing, I used as little weight as I could get away with. Either a small split shot, or no weight at all. A lot depended on weather (wind). I did a lot of fishing at Joe Pool at their fishing barge on the west side of the lake. A bread ball on a size 6 hook with no weight worked well for carp and buffs.

That Diawa reel sounds very nice. When a do fish smaller lakes for carp, I use fly gear...different altogether, but I've made the investment over the years. My rod holders sometimes go "thump straight down", but I haven't lost a rod.

Do plan plan on going weightless...still with a hair rig, and probably with a fiberglass fly rod. It might get pretty hairy in the marina, but all I risk is my leader, hook, etc.

Solid post!

Update: Got a couple of nice carp but it slowed a bit, so I changed to a 1/4 barrel sinker from my usual 1 oz. I also changed to Finley's favorite carp candy. They stayed on the bite ...very light...but they didn't hook themselves, so I had to get creative. I tried hauling the line straight-up slowly and was surprised to see the rod tip just keep bending...a hard set on the handle while still in the rod holder netted me this...hooked in the top lip. Thanks for the suggestion!

Buffalo are the light biters when fishing straight down. Good job on this one. If the rod tip is twitching, set the hook. You may miss several, but it will increase your odds when the bite is light.

I tried taking the rod out of the holder, but just too much jostling around. So I just slam the rod handle up. Not sure it was designed for that, but it seems to work.

If the bites are light, I assume that they are buffalo bites. I would not use the hair rig for straight up and down buffalo bites. Just bait the hook itself. I also do no use a rod holder for just the reason you mentioned. I carefully prop the rod as level as I can and commence to watching the tip. Doing this will also catch carp for you. They may bite light, or slam it.

Based on results from recent days, and suggestions from others above (thanks!), I am going to adopt a different set-up for each rod...one for carp, and one for buffs. The carp rig uses a heavy terminal sinker (well, 1 oz.), and the general tactic is "let them eat"...hook themselves. I think the added weight is needed for that. The buff set-up is 1/4 oz (I'll use a hard terminal loop and a crimp on/off split shot to change back and forth), and the bites will be dealt with more aggressively. Hair rigs on both because I'll use candy on the buff rig and I need the hair to bait that, though I may put corn directly on the hook as well. I'll start compiling a record on which rig caught what to see if the trend holds. Thanks again for all the inputs. A YouTube vid on how I make my vertical rigs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQzquioj3E

Nice thread.

Haul and slam works again...

Nice one Bob!

Using your favorite candy seems to help with the buffs

Hehe! They do have a bit of a sweet tooth!

Putting some buffs in the boat...most a little under 25...a few smaller

Awesome! Great to see some more catches from there. Most being in the mid 20s is really good

That's awesome! Are you at Sapphire Bay? I do a lot of crappie fishing out there in the spring and fall, if it's too windy to take the boat out. I've been wondering how often carp come in there and logistics of catching them in such a tight space. This was super informative. My slip is in shallower water (12ft) though, so that's the only bad part.

That's a phenomenal depth! If you want a tutorial on Carping I'd be happy to come out and show ya sometime

Bandito...sorry...I just saw your post. Yes, my boat is in Sapphire Bay in about 25 ft of water. After fishing for a week with a carp guide from Canada who wanted to add buffs to his caught list, I've learned several new things that I wanted to post here about fishing "tight" vs open water like most bank carpers do. The first thing to note is that fishing "loose"...letting the fish run (with bait runner reels)...results in more snags, and it was clear that these snags are caused by the original trees that were there when Ray Hubbard was flooded. I don't fish loose, I fish "tight", meaning, my drag is set heavy and I react to bites...I don't let the fish peel off line. Very often, I'm fishing straight down. But also, my rigs are different. The weight is on the bottom, and I keep my hook links short...like 4 inches. I do this because a long hook link and/or a sliding sinker...the rigs used by bankers that fish loose...often hook buffs with the hooks outside their gills. Bringing in a buff that's hooked this way is a bit traumatic for me...you have to cut off the hook...but I also don't think the fish fight right, and I suspect it is more likely to damage the fish. Fishing "tight" may or may not make it harder to hook-up carp, but I'm pretty certain it helps hook the buffs in the mouth. Maybe we can talk or fish together in person sometime out at Sapphire Bay. If you pre-bait...and I used range cubes for the first time...I'm pretty sure 12 ft of water would not be a problem at all.

Great info Bob! Looking forward to seeing your catches from this week!

I would like to share my perspective as a large portion of my fishing when i lived in Dallas was done in marina/barge settings. Carp (but especially buffalo 15-30lbs and bigger) are quite easily targeted vertically if you properly prepare. First lets discuss bait (both chum and hookbait): While corn is definitely cheap and easy to come by, i don't like it for vertical fishing as it tends to be more concentrated since it is dropped straight down for vertical fishing instead of being spombed or spodded out which allows it to spread out over an area which will cause the fish to have to move around more. The one thing that is true whether fishing vertical or at distance is that you want to create competition between the feeding fish to cause them to be more agressive which leads to more frequent and assertive bites. Cracked corn would be a better option for this than feed corn, as it is much smaller and would cause the fish to feed more aggressively over the smaller particles. That being said, cracked corn would not be my first choice either. Range cubes are definitely a step in the right direction. They used to be my first option, until i became familiar with rabbit pellets and other small pellet feed such as Calf manna. Range cubes tend to break down very slowly in water below 60 degrees. The fish will still feed on them, but this can cause them to be sore lipped resulting in VERY LITE bites due to sensative lips. I'll return with more info later.

Thanks...look forward to more...

Ok i'm back.......So my reccomendation for the range cubes in cold water is to soak them in very warm/hot water in a 5 gal buck at least an hour before fishing. They'll become mush and will have to be chummed with a spoon/ladle but they will already have significant scent to them and will attract fish much quicker. Now if you want to avoid having to do this, then I suggest using rabbit pellets or guinea pig pellets. They break down VERY QUICKLY in warm water, and much faster than range cubes in colder water. They also take on liquid attractant and cream corn very well and will then bind well with oats or panko for a makeshift packbait if needed. Calf manna does this also, but rabbit pellets are a good bit cheaper. ($16 for a 50lb bag of manna pro rabbit feed at TSC). As they break down on the bottom, they essentially turn to mush which the fish will have to work harder to suck up, which will also make for a very good clouding effect there on the bottom. This will also cause the fish to look harder for solid pieces of food amonst this, which will be scarce. This is where the hook bait comes in. The simplest hookbait in this scenario is sweetcorn. It will be easy for the fish to spot and see. Also, if you're worried about the fish being spooked by your hookbait being the only corn down there, simply spread out 1/2 can (or whole can if the area chummed is greater than 5ft in diameter) of sweet corn with the pellets to offer the fish a FEW loose offerings. While the hair rig is great for the typical Euro style method fishing, It is not the best option in my opinion for this style of fishing, but the hooks we use for the hair rig make great hooks for vertical fishing due to their small size and wide gap (comparatively speaking). There are many other baits that will work in this situation as well. Small pieces of nightcrawler or red wigglers, wax worms, super worms, black soldier fly larva, butterworms, crickets, the list goes on in terms of insects. For most of these bait presentations, you'll need one small splitshot 6-15 inches up from the hook. I'd recommend using braid (10-30 lbs) for this style of fishing.

This is also a great time to use paste/dough baits. I'll give detail on this when i get home from work later. Cheers!

Tons of great info, thanks Cornell!

Yeah! That would be great. I’ve Carl fished plenty of times but normally on the Trinity in FW. And it’s been a while. Is that depth good year round or just certain times of the year? I’ve seen carp in there early spring for sure but it seems like everyone disappears in the summer and winter. Then again I don’t really fish for them at those times either.

No worries. I’ve been super busy at work lately and haven’t been online much this week. Thanks for the tips. Especially on the buff hookups. I don’t eat buffalo and would hate to hook one like that. I wonder what the feasibility of getting a small auto feeder set up at the slip would be feasible. Hopefully we run into each other sometime. I’d love to take a look at your set up. Been a while since I fished for carp. And when I used to it was with canned corn.

My slip is at the end of the row on dock E so I could possibly also fish out a ways and not just straight down. Not sure if that would be better or not. Most of the carp are probably underneath for the shade huh?

Bandito, I'll have a look at the end of E dock. Pretty sure the carp and buffs would be there if it was pre-baited, and with a little notice, I could do that for you a couple of days before you go to fish your slip. I can see it being a challenge to hook-up just 12 feet down on a 25 # buff or a carp in the teens, but a little grade school geometry would tell you to cast out 20 ft or so and it shouldn't be too hard to get chum that far out. CoC is posting good info on the best kinds of chum...rabbit pellets, etc., which I'm gonna try. The most important factor getting started is how you are going to fish...tight or loose. Tight means secure rods or the fish will take them...loose means special reels....maybe. The bank guys target carp in the shallows because the water is warmer...the cats and the crappie may like the shade, but I don't think the carp and buffs care...they want easy feeding.

CoC, thanks for your insights! If you're ever back in Dallas, you've got a place to fish. The Cattle Cubes I bought were huge...like broom stick thick...so I'll do the hot water soak until I use them up. I can just pour this mush out of a bucket on each side of the boat, or across in some empty slips I can easily cast to. But I'll try the rabbit pellets next. I have to say, though, I do like hair rigs mostly because the cats don't swallow the hooks, but I've got some sz 14 heavy wire hooks, so I'll also try some mini-hair rigs with just a small split shot just to see if they help with a light bite. You've given me stuff to try...thanks.

Quick update: put those large cattle cubes in hot water, and in 30 minutes, it's mostly brown mush. I'll go scoop and fling it out around at my slip, then bait with sweet corn and peanuts and see how that works this morning.

Awesome thread!

Any updates?

Went out for a few hours...scooped out the cattle cube mush...threw out a little sweet corn...and caught one nice carp, so it was slow. Trying the find the right pre-bait process. I didn't toss out boiled deer corn the night before, or use packbait while fishing, which is my usual. Was hoping the mushed cubes the same morning would do the trick, and it didn't. I'm planning the next little campaign...will mush cubes and toss corn maybe Thursday afternoon, and see how well that works the following morning. Not ready to give up on the cattle cubes just yet since they mush so easily.

I am not a fan of the mushed cubes. I would think that the fine particles would wash away. I always use the cubes when I have them. They obviously take longer to break down and thus help hold the fish in the area. I know a carper that would use a small piece of a cube on a hair rig. He would pre-drill the pieces so that they could be threaded on the rig. I would add the rabbit pellets the day of fishing as they break down fairly fast, along with the corn.

By nature, I'm a "match the hatch" guy, meaning, you pre-bait with what you hook bait, and for me so far, that's boiled corn. But I got a couple of bags of cattle cubes...really big ones...at Phil's request. I intend to work them off now without pre-dissolving, about 5 lbs at the end of a session. At 25 ft depth, the mushed one could easily just disperse without getting to the bottom, but it was worth a shot if it helped just before fishing. Not sure I'll venture again into using livestock feed...we'll see after I work off the last bag.

10-15ft is a great depth year round!

I wouldn't give up on the cubes just yet, using them dry will prolong the breakdown. I believe that the more variety you send down there, the more the carp will be open to taking easily when they are ready to feed. Just a matter of getting waiting them out until a feeding period when water is cold. I also think the buffs are best targeted on something other than the chum. The carp seem to be quicker to feed,and more numerous, which leads me to think that the buffs would be left with anything the carp aren't interested in. Hence, the success I had on peanuts down there, and also on boilies when the carp were off.

You've seen the range cubes I use, they do a heck of a job drawing in carp up here, and I mix in about 15% home made boilies to both get them onto those, as well as have something for them once the range cubes break down.

Fishing your spot should only get better as the water temp increases.

I predrill cubes all the time. They are a staple on my pva stringers, along with boilies. I've used them as hookbait at times, but they break down quickly, and tend to get pecked off by nuisance fish like gobies and sunfish too often. When I do put them on a hair nowadays, I usually pair them with tiger nuts, corn, or boilies.

Yes the range Cube on a hair rig is a definite Game Changer and can be great to use when other baits are not working or if you want to throw something different at them.

So now on to what I was saying about paste / dough baits. Everybody's got their own homemade versions and one that I'm sure we've all heard of is big red and Wheaties. Another one that I'm very familiar with is bread cottonseed meal and snow cone syrup. Now the important thing with paste / dough baits is that you want to make sure they are the proper consistency based on how you are fishing. I know a lot of people that make dough baits are concerned about them being tough enough to stay on the line and add ingredients to them to toughen them up. While there is some Merit to this if throwing out at distance or even fishing under a float, for a vertical presentation that is on the bottom or just off the bottom a softer dough bait can be beneficial. Now when I say soft, I'm not talking mush, but something along the consistency of cookie dough that is room temperature. Bananas can be a great base for a good dough bait. you can smash them up and mix them with bread to form a paste that will catch catfish carp and buffalo, and it will still readily fish on a single hook. Another option would be to mix bread molasses and instant potatoes with a small amount of water to form another great hook bait. As stated these are softer baits and I would not recommend trying to cast them out, but they will fish very well vertically. It is important to note that you want to use a piece of bait just large enough to cover your hook because if you make the bait too big and it is soft it will be easy for it to pull off the hook. You can place a very small split shot 6 to 10 in above the bait, but in my opinion if you use a size 6 or 8 hook, the bait should have enough weight to sink on its own without much assistance. I would fish this on 12 to 14 lb mono tied straight to the hook unless there is a large amount of snags near where the bait will be. You can use braid to fish this technique, but with the lack of stretch it has while it will offer greater bite detection, the softer bait will be much easier to come off. With this style of fishing I tend to either hold the rod or watch the tip very closely and set on the first significant movement.

Good info as always Cornell! Last time (and the only time, lol) I made a dough bait I just made boilie dough. It smelled terrific! All I caught on it were Catfish though

So I'll share my secret dough ball recipe. As a kid growing up in Central Indiana, the only real fishing I could do with my friends was on the banks of the then polluted White River, and carp were the only fish to target. I got this recipe from an old man I would seek out in the early mornings after I finished my paper route. I'm talking early 1960s:

In a sauce pan, pour one can of creamed corn, and one can of water. Bring this to a boil. Stir in one can of corn meal, stirring constantly until thick...about 10 minutes. Let it cool (that was the hard part) before spooning it into tin foil.

My family would wake up to a corn filled household, but I was long gone by then. The sinkers I used were dead spark plugs I got from the local gas station in exchange for a few newspapers I had left over from my route. I'd find a forked stick to prop up my rod with the bail open, and wait for the line to spool out. Pick-up the rod, close the bail, and strike hard...they seemed like torpedoes to a 10 year old.

Thank You kaboboom!! I may take you up on that offer soon. I plan to be in Dallas mid April for about a week.

Oh, what a beautiful memories!!
Thank you so much for sharing!

Kind of surprised the buffs and carp here in Hubbard are so cookie-cutter in size...buffs in the mid 20s/carp between 8-12 lbs. And the carp and buffs, despite the size difference, fight about the same. I still like my level winds better than spinning reels when fishing vertical with a tight drag. Slamming the handle in a rod holders when I get a sustained but light bite is still working, and I get most hook-ups on the upper lips with no gill fouled buffs since I went to a short hook link up from the sinker.

Since people feed the carp for fun at the Lynn Creek Marina at Joe Pool Lake,
you cannot see the water for the carp