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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Bee'z]
#13369926
12/12/19 04:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388
J.P. Greeson
OP
the janitor
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OP
the janitor
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388 |
The great awakening comes when it is time to replace those batteries. You mean when they hit about 300,000-500,000 miles?
The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the worse the problem, the longer the trip should be. --John Gierach
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Hookem]
#13369988
12/12/19 11:45 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161
patriot07
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161 |
Five are in the parking lot at work, three are new and those were their second Tesla. I can see this. Folks who have money and are buying new cars every 2-3 years anyway don't really care about the economics of it as much as the cool factor, and will never own one long enough to replace the batteries. If you're cool with throwing money away on depreciation and paying big bucks for a car that can't pull a truck or haul wood home or anything like that, then go for it. But like a corvette, it's a novelty. Now if you're in the market for a Corvette or something, I could for sure see this being appealing. They are stupid fast - no comparison to most gas vehicles.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: J.P. Greeson]
#13369990
12/12/19 11:49 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161
patriot07
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161 |
The great awakening comes when it is time to replace those batteries. You mean when they hit about 300,000-500,000 miles? Only guaranteed for 120k I believe. But if most are going 300k-500k, that's very impressive. I don't think Prius technology every did quite that well.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Duck_Hunter]
#13369992
12/12/19 11:55 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161
patriot07
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161 |
Ridden in one. But still makes zero sense in the current market as anything other than a novelty, if you're considering functional bang for the buck. If you want a novelty item that has some very cool features, go for it. But they don't tick any boxes for me. The range issue with EVs is still a huge problem for anyone living in a state like Texas where things are often very far apart.
Imagine you drove an EV in California when they were shutting down the power grid because of wind... My coworker has one in Southern California and commutes an hour each way. Hasn’t had any problems yet. My neighbor in Texas just bought his second one and drives it to work everyday but has other vehicles for traveling distances. I wouldn’t say it’s a “novelty” but there are questions about the practicality of EVs for sure, especially if it’s your only vehicle or you plan on taking it long distances. If you have the money and want to make it work, it can work. Does your coworker have a charger at work? We don't have any here. My issue isn't even going to work and back. It's when I go to work and then agree mid-day to meet someone to buy something off craigslist or something like that, and it's a long way away. Or if I have to leave work to go pick up the kids at school and take them to the doctor and back home, or drive down to Tyler to help my parents with something. Do I then have to go home and get my other vehicle before doing those things? That happens all the time. And that's not an unusual. I just don't get the ppl trying to justify it economically. I mean I bought an $18k Nissan Altima brand new and got near 40 mpg with cheap oil changes, way more interior room than a Tesla, lots of technology, and zero repair issues before I sold it for $14k 3 years and 65k miles later. And we took it on a road trip to Augusta, GA to go to the Masters and drove there in a day - something you could not do having to wait around for an EV to charge. Right now, gas vehicles are both more economical and more capable functionally for most people, which is the reason I said it was a novelty. If you're considering something like a Corvette, I think that's when I'd consider a Tesla - great performance at a reasonable price in comparison to other sports cars. But buying it as an economical alternative to other commuter vehicles isn't really mathematically sensible, and when you combine it with the range issue, it's just kind of difficult to consider as anything other than a novelty, in my opinion.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: PowerLizard]
#13369994
12/12/19 11:58 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161
patriot07
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161 |
It is worth looking at for a family second vehicle because they have fewer moving parts. If you own it for 10 years, the maintenance would be a lot lower: No fuel pump to fail. No fuel filter to clog. No fuel injectors to clog. No ignition coil to fail. No spark plugs to replace. No motor oil to replace. No oil filter to replace. No oil pump to replace. No piston rings to wear out. No pistons, connecting arms, cam shaft bearings. No valves, valve guides or valve springs. No air filter to replace. No exhaust manifold gasket to leak. No catalytic convertor to be stolen. No muffler to replace. No coolant to replace. No water pump to replace. No thermostat to replace. No leaking radiator to replace. No coolant hoses to replace. No alternator to replace.
For maintaining an electric car, all I can think of is tires and brakes. Over time the battery won't hold as much charge but there are after market companies who test and replace battery cells for hybrid Prius so doing this for Tesla can't be far off if it doesn't exist already. If you own it 10 years, you very well could be replacing a battery pack, which is more expensive than most anything you'd need to do in a gas vehicle over that time frame. You make a fair point though that maintenance in a gas vehicle isn't free. But it's also worth noting that if we're ever going to really expand the EV market, it will require major, major infrastructure upgrades to the electric grid. And it will require more trust in business than we currently have - what about all the EV owners in Cali when they shut down power for high winds?
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: J.P. Greeson]
#13370043
12/12/19 01:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,234
Pinkus
Extreme Angler
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Extreme Angler
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,234 |
Bunch of fairy’s talking about Tesla’s.. what has the tff come too.... wake me up when there is man talk, ie, boats, diesel trucks and womenzz.
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Pinkus]
#13370055
12/12/19 01:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,258
Bass&More
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,258 |
Bunch of fairy’s talking about Tesla’s.. what has the tff come too.... wake me up when there is man talk, ie, boats, diesel trucks and womenzz. ^^^^^^^this
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: patriot07]
#13370066
12/12/19 01:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,075
BassFever
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,075 |
Five are in the parking lot at work, three are new and those were their second Tesla. I can see this. Folks who have money and are buying new cars every 2-3 years anyway don't really care about the economics of it as much as the cool factor, and will never own one long enough to replace the batteries. If you're cool with throwing money away on depreciation and paying big bucks for a car that can't pull a truck or haul wood home or anything like that, then go for it. But like a corvette, it's a novelty. Now if you're in the market for a Corvette or something, I could for sure see this being appealing. They are stupid fast - no comparison to most gas vehicles. Actually electric vehicles can pull trailers VERY well. Go watch some of the TFL videos on YouTube. Mileage will suffer, but they actually pull better than most gas vehicles, instant torque.
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Bass&More]
#13370090
12/12/19 02:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388
J.P. Greeson
OP
the janitor
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OP
the janitor
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388 |
Bunch of fairy’s talking about Tesla’s.. what has the tff come too.... wake me up when there is man talk, ie, boats, diesel trucks and womenzz. ^^^^^^^this If talking about Teslas is not manly enough for you guys, then you don't have much faith in your own masculinity. What's more manly than discussing new vehicle technology?
The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the worse the problem, the longer the trip should be. --John Gierach
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: patriot07]
#13370095
12/12/19 02:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 29,836
Duck_Hunter
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 29,836 |
Ridden in one. But still makes zero sense in the current market as anything other than a novelty, if you're considering functional bang for the buck. If you want a novelty item that has some very cool features, go for it. But they don't tick any boxes for me. The range issue with EVs is still a huge problem for anyone living in a state like Texas where things are often very far apart.
Imagine you drove an EV in California when they were shutting down the power grid because of wind... My coworker has one in Southern California and commutes an hour each way. Hasn’t had any problems yet. My neighbor in Texas just bought his second one and drives it to work everyday but has other vehicles for traveling distances. I wouldn’t say it’s a “novelty” but there are questions about the practicality of EVs for sure, especially if it’s your only vehicle or you plan on taking it long distances. If you have the money and want to make it work, it can work. Does your coworker have a charger at work? We don't have any here. My issue isn't even going to work and back. It's when I go to work and then agree mid-day to meet someone to buy something off craigslist or something like that, and it's a long way away. Or if I have to leave work to go pick up the kids at school and take them to the doctor and back home, or drive down to Tyler to help my parents with something. Do I then have to go home and get my other vehicle before doing those things? That happens all the time. And that's not an unusual. I just don't get the ppl trying to justify it economically. I mean I bought an $18k Nissan Altima brand new and got near 40 mpg with cheap oil changes, way more interior room than a Tesla, lots of technology, and zero repair issues before I sold it for $14k 3 years and 65k miles later. And we took it on a road trip to Augusta, GA to go to the Masters and drove there in a day - something you could not do having to wait around for an EV to charge. Right now, gas vehicles are both more economical and more capable functionally for most people, which is the reason I said it was a novelty. If you're considering something like a Corvette, I think that's when I'd consider a Tesla - great performance at a reasonable price in comparison to other sports cars. But buying it as an economical alternative to other commuter vehicles isn't really mathematically sensible, and when you combine it with the range issue, it's just kind of difficult to consider as anything other than a novelty, in my opinion. He doesn’t have to charge it at work. An hour commute in LA isn’t 150 miles one way. It’s a nice car. The economics work for him and my neighbor.
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: patriot07]
#13370099
12/12/19 02:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388
J.P. Greeson
OP
the janitor
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OP
the janitor
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 23,388 |
Now if you're in the market for a Corvette or something, I could for sure see this being appealing. They are stupid fast - no comparison to most gas vehicles.
The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the worse the problem, the longer the trip should be. --John Gierach
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Pinkus]
#13370102
12/12/19 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,590
MBradford
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,590 |
Bunch of fairy’s talking about Tesla’s.. what has the tff come too.... wake me up when there is man talk, ie, boats, diesel trucks and womenzz. Sez the poster named Pinkus...
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: patriot07]
#13370236
12/12/19 03:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,083
DavidWhatley
TFF Celebrity
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TFF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,083 |
The great awakening comes when it is time to replace those batteries. You mean when they hit about 300,000-500,000 miles? Only guaranteed for 120k I believe. But if most are going 300k-500k, that's very impressive. I don't think Prius technology every did quite that well. I drive a 2011 Prius daily, and average 265 miles a day.. bought it used in February of 2015 with 58,000 miles . I average 44.5 MPG and drive NE Tarrant county primarily. So far I've replaced the following; Fuel Pump $800 Big motor batteries $250 Front brakes $75.00 Sensor $250 4 Ignition coils $500 Set of tires every 9 months $275 EGR Valve $250 I spend approximately $110 a week on gas I will hit 330,000 miles this week. Not bad for a Hybrid.
"Every man must live with the man that he makes of himself, and the better job he does at molding his character and improving his mind, the better company he will have." Pauline Whatley
A wise man once said.......Nothing
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: J.P. Greeson]
#13370385
12/12/19 06:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 999
Blue Moon
Pro Angler
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Pro Angler
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 999 |
I’ve been involved with dozens of startups so I naturally appreciate watching Elon Musk and his team shoot for the stars. Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink, OpenAI, and Neuralink all have innovative offerings that are likely to be a part of our lives for years to come. Then again, I know first hand that not all startups make it…
My sweetheart, a computer science and A.I. guru, is a leader in the autonomous driving realm. She’s currently on a team that's leading the way to make it all happen.
She could drive anything she wants but for the last several years has been happy driving a Honda CRV because she’s good at math and practical. That said, as long as the company weathers the financial storm and survives, I have little doubt that her next car will be a Tesla mainly because she’s never had any interest in a vehicle before and she has a lot of interest in Tesla. She wants a long range AWD hatchback with cargo room but she doesn’t want a full size SUV. If she had to pull the trigger today she’d most likely get a Model S but she wants to wait to actually see the Model Y crossover and Cybertruck before she makes a decision.
We’ve been looking at Tesla for a couple of years and everything keeps looking better. Most of my initial concerns are slowly losing merit. Here are a few legitimate concerns and things you should consider before making a buy decision.
SERVICE & MAINTENANCE - While service issues are rare and maintenance minimal compared to other American auto manufactures, a few people on the Tesla forum have voiced serious complaints regarding downtime and lack of communication. Most are serious fanboys and swear it’s fine but you can feel the pain reading some complaints so Tesla appears to have room for improvement when it comes to service but then again, most dealers suck and steal when it comes to service… Regardless, based on some of the complaints on the Tesla forum, I wouldn’t advise getting a Tesla if it’s your only ride unless you live in an urban area and can Uber or in a position to get a rental while you wait for days for a part to arrive.
AVOID THE LARGER RIMS - When you order you usually have an option to upgrade to larger rims. The larger rims nearly always look better but one of the biggest complaints is the larger rims reduce range. In some cases drastically. Besides reduced range, the tires wear out faster and many of the larger rims have been damaged in the past. Tesla beefed up some of the rims but the heavier weight and size reduced range. Since range is still one of the biggest concerns, it’s likely better to stick with the stock rim size when ordering.
BATTERIES - If you’re like me and keep your vehicles for over a decade you likely have concerns about the cost to replace the batteries. Batteries are currently warranted for 8 years but most gurus believe they will last much longer. While many factors come into play, we know that heat, letting the batteries run down too low before you charge, and charging often with the fast superchargers weaken the batteries. So anyone that lives in the sunbelt, puts a ton of miles on daily and has to routinely use a SuperCharger at work or on the road is much more likely to have battery problems sooner compared to the urban commuter that charges over night at home before the batteries have a chance to run down too low. When it does come time to replace the batteries it currently runs around $18K. While that sounds like a shocking repair bill, keep in mind that you would most likely have to replace an engine and a tranny or two with a typical gas vehicle with the projected same amount of use of over 300,000 miles. In that case you still come out ahead with the Tesla, especially if you consider that overall in maintenance and fuel up to that point you would have saved approximately 75 percent over what you would have spent to maintain and fuel an American gasser.
FREE SUPERCHARGING? Keep in mind that some of the new models like the Y currently don’t come with free supercharging like the more expensive models.
AUTOPILOT - is included in all the new models but to add self driving it’s currently a 7K option. Rumors are that full autonomous driving may require an addition upgrade post sale but Tesla claims all current models can be upgraded. If you’re considering a preowned Tesla, I’ve read that the post 2016 Tesla’s will likely be upgradable to autonomous driving. It's a feature that will likely make a difference in resale value so down the road expect to see a difference in resell value between pre and post 2016 Teslas.
TOWING- you can get a tow package today with the model X. Lots of reports of people pulling small boats and small Airstreams with the Model X on the Tesla forum. The X with standard wheels has a 5K towing capacity but only 3,500 if you get the larger wheels. The down side is towing reduces range just like with a gasser. The cool thing is the technology allows for built in sway protection that automatically brakes each wheel independently to help keep your trailer from swaying. The Cybertruck will come in three towing classes similar to other pickups with towing capacity ranging from 7,500 for the single motor rear wheel drive, 10,000 pounds for the dual motor all wheel drive and 14,000 pounds for the tri-motor all wheel drive. If you get larger wheels it will likely reduce towing capacity and range so keep that in mind if you reserve one.
From a pure shopper experience standpoint, instead of typical showrooms, Tesla has galleries. They offer a refreshing customer experience that absolutely puts every other vehicle shopping experience to shame. Even if you’re not in the market, visit one just for fun. Hopefully before my sweetheart buys one the post sale service experience will eventually be just as top notch.
Worried about their financial outlook?
Jim Cramer turns bullish on Tesla — ‘I’m a true believer’ - December 11, 2019
LoopVenturers Study Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry
Like Tesla - Model 3 total cost of ownership is cheaper than Camry
Tesla 250 MPH Roadster, 0-60 1.9s, 620 mile range
Tesla CyberTruck, towing capacity r...ity reaches 0-60 in just 2.9 seconds…
Model Y - 66 cu ft cargo space, 300 mile range, AWD
Blue Moon
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Re: question for Tesla haters
[Re: Duck_Hunter]
#13372085
12/14/19 04:04 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161
patriot07
TFF Guru
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TFF Guru
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,161 |
Ridden in one. But still makes zero sense in the current market as anything other than a novelty, if you're considering functional bang for the buck. If you want a novelty item that has some very cool features, go for it. But they don't tick any boxes for me. The range issue with EVs is still a huge problem for anyone living in a state like Texas where things are often very far apart.
Imagine you drove an EV in California when they were shutting down the power grid because of wind... My coworker has one in Southern California and commutes an hour each way. Hasn’t had any problems yet. My neighbor in Texas just bought his second one and drives it to work everyday but has other vehicles for traveling distances. I wouldn’t say it’s a “novelty” but there are questions about the practicality of EVs for sure, especially if it’s your only vehicle or you plan on taking it long distances. If you have the money and want to make it work, it can work. Does your coworker have a charger at work? We don't have any here. My issue isn't even going to work and back. It's when I go to work and then agree mid-day to meet someone to buy something off craigslist or something like that, and it's a long way away. Or if I have to leave work to go pick up the kids at school and take them to the doctor and back home, or drive down to Tyler to help my parents with something. Do I then have to go home and get my other vehicle before doing those things? That happens all the time. And that's not an unusual. I just don't get the ppl trying to justify it economically. I mean I bought an $18k Nissan Altima brand new and got near 40 mpg with cheap oil changes, way more interior room than a Tesla, lots of technology, and zero repair issues before I sold it for $14k 3 years and 65k miles later. And we took it on a road trip to Augusta, GA to go to the Masters and drove there in a day - something you could not do having to wait around for an EV to charge. Right now, gas vehicles are both more economical and more capable functionally for most people, which is the reason I said it was a novelty. If you're considering something like a Corvette, I think that's when I'd consider a Tesla - great performance at a reasonable price in comparison to other sports cars. But buying it as an economical alternative to other commuter vehicles isn't really mathematically sensible, and when you combine it with the range issue, it's just kind of difficult to consider as anything other than a novelty, in my opinion. He doesn’t have to charge it at work. An hour commute in LA isn’t 150 miles one way. It’s a nice car. The economics work for him and my neighbor. The other disclaimer about Cali is that gas is over $4 a gallon. It does make more sense there. They also use the AC less, which is a big deal for range issues. And they drive slower, which helps with range as well. Again, I just don't see how it would work for most Texans who aren't rich enough to own a non-EV to go along with it - kind of like a sports car that you own on the side.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Soren Kierkegaard
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