Had an interesting conversation today

So I spoke with a gentleman in the Fracking business today about underground aquifers and how lakes around here don't rise after inches of rainfall in surrounding drainage areas.

Does anyone here think the "drought" excuse is going to work again this year or are municipalities going to post user quantities to actually pinpoint the problem? I probably know the answer to my own question so have fun thinking on it. The numbers are astonishing and subjective but you watering your lawn doesn't hold a candle to drilling through a 500 year old water table on top of an underground cavern..........

Never thought of that and something to think about. I know we haven't gotten the rain like we need recently but when 4 inches of rain fall in the watershed of Cedar Creek and the lake comes up 6 inches something isn't right.

Lucky you, we get 4" of rain here and Fork drops 2"

interesting subject for sure Pat , and I am sure we have several culprits involved in our ever deteriorating water supply . on the national average our general population also uses more per capita on the average as well .someday it would be nice if we developed the wisdom to see how and why and what we are doing to our planet . there will never be another drop of water "made" as some of you know and as a species we have zero respect for that . BTW in the big scheme of things do you ever wonder about the spraying of aluminum oxide into our upper atmosphere to "control" the green house effect and the effects on our rainfall ? big business has the money to do as they see fit to make a profit in many cases and in a lot of cases the greed far outweighs common sense .......

It pisses me off thinking about it.cant even launch on my home lake!

I guess that the fact that the Metromess has doubled in population and we have added no new lakes has anything to do with it? Or the fact the annual rainfall has been substantially less the past few years??? Naw.....

Ditto that, can't get on my home lake, Eagle Mountain for a long time now!!

I'm specifically talking about how lakes don't rise after hard rain like they were engineered to do. If the lakes would fill like they're supposed to then it would sustain larger population. Also how do you explain lakes in west Texas flat out drying up and no population boom.

Drought.

There are a lot of variables. The amount of rain is obviously the biggest. Usage is huge. I believe the last lake built around here was Joe Pool. The building of lakes will obviously not keep up with the population growth. Unfortunately, conservation is going to be a bigger and bigger thing. maybe they can build golf courses where our lakes used to be, and we can still go to those areas for old times sakes.

I read an article, a while back, that stated that each well requires about 4.5 million gallons of water to perform the fracking procedure. Because it is not cost effective to ship in water for these operations the water is taken locally, so some of that water is taken directly from lakes some comes from the water supply but either way you cut it that is a lot of water and it has to play a part in the the water levels of area lakes. But don't get me started on the whole fracking thing.

I stand corrected sir .... I thought Pat started this thread
but to be sure look up in the sky today
I saw them this morning
spray away Conag ....
they say its to prevent global warming
but they only spray right before every major storm system comes along
its a really long story ,but a lot of people think Conag is behind the current lower rainfalls .
you know they engineer seeds genetically I am sure
some to never reproduce another plant
some to have higher yields
and then some are rather drought resistant as well ......
and you can probably see where this is going
BIG BUSINESS it is for sure
deep in our government's pockets ....
btw aluminum oxide is an environmental nightmare
and our government is letting them spray away
dig deeper and find out about this so called conspiracy theory ....
maybe its for real ....I certainly wonder about it myself ...

I have sold water for frackin and it's not 4.5 million.also remember that when have drought everything upstream must fill first before run off Darrell

UH OH!
I see a contradiction of facts on the horizon!

Just to cite three articles:

How much water does it take to frack a well?

Energy Facts: How Much Water Does Frackign for Shale Gas Consume?

Water: Fracking Sucks More than You Think

And who's to say that the water you sold went to one well, or even if it was combined with other water for one well? Only "big oil" knows for sure and if you go by history they have not been the most forthcoming, just watch a few minutes of the documentary "Gasland".

I will say this. With the current price of oil, fracking is about to be cut way back in the states.

Not to but either way you look at it, fracking uses a heck of a lot of water, and certainly can't help with lake levels.

well we can stop buying :gasoline powered cars and outboards, plastics which comes from crude oil like plastic bottles for water, plastic containers, plastic bags....

we can light everything with candles at home and cook everything with firewood to save gas.

the humanity depends on crude oil and gas. crude oil has more priority than the lakes we fish.

Or we could look for alternatives to petroleum based energy, after all it is a finite resource that will eventually run out. Diminishing supplies is already giving us fracking and oil sands refining both of which are argueably nastier than the current recovery of crude oil.

Not to mention our reliance on "unfriendly" nations to feed our crude oil habits.

I don't know enough about fracking to have an informed opinion. But I do know gas was $1.96 at Sams' this morning. Whether it's good or bad how the price got there, everyone decide for themselves.

I also know this: on the 21 acres our local gun club owns, there's a small drainage that starts on the 100 acres to the west. Not a creek, just drainage. During the late 80s thru the early 2000s, this drainage had water trickling almost non stop except for about 4 summers in July/August. It was so wet we could not mow the area with the tractor or even a riding mower. Our road runs across the drainage with two 24" culverts under the road. Road washed out 3 times in the 90s. finally installed a low water crossing.

In the last 7 years, this same area has been bone dry year around except for about 2 months. No problem mowing with the shredder. To my knowledge, this is due to precipitation levels below normal for the past 7 years. I've only seen one other time this dry from 1950-57. I saw live oak and cedar trees dying then as I've seen in the past 3 years. There was no fracking and global warming in the 50s. Just plain lack of rainfall. Since the 50s, population and water usage has grown exponentially.

Why there has been no investment in water recycling in the past 10-30 yrs is astounding. The technology has been there for 40 years. For the cost of all the pipelines back to the Metromess, there surely could have been efforts to recycle the water. Current technology can process waste water to come out more pure than tap water.

Very valid points. I was not trying to imply that the low lake levels are solely attributed to fracking. I was just trying to say that they don't help and with the reliance of lobbyists to push the desires of big business, over the interest of the common citizens, the environment will continue to get worse before it gets better.

Buton, that's a slight over reaction to someone wondering why the lakes are low. This world could not function without energy. The vast majority of our energy comes from fossil fuels. The fracking has become commonplace only recently. There is no doubt it uses some water. I guess it's debatable how much. I think some folks are debating how much of the low lake levels may be attributed to fracking is a valid question. The main point is that water is becoming more scarce in Texas. Everybody that uses it wants to use it for different reasons. Some folks are going to conserve. Others will not, unless it's mandated. I said unfortunately earlier, because I hate to see it come to that, but it's obvious to me that will be one of the key ways to have enough. I am a pro fac kind of guy. But, I have two points. One I made earlier. The cracking will become less common in the states because it is simply more expensive to get it out of the ground here than in other parts of the world. Simple economics. Second point is that if things don't improve water wise here, then water use for fracking will start to be scrutinized more, just like lawn watering, etc. I want the drilling to take place here. With oil dropping, I kind of fear that it will drop substantially due to economics.

I have just been on Cedar Creek for a couple of years - i just want to put in my two cents on the water levels - has nothing to do with rainfall - see Lake Athens or any surrounding cattle tank - also - notice how the water level actually goes down after rain, they suck out the water literally in anticipation of it being replenished to its low levels - and finally, the "current" that is out of control at times when fishing - it is a resorvoir - the only current is obviously man made - ie, the TC water authority sucking it out as fast as they can - there should be no current since there is only one place for the water to go, the spillway (and ever notice that the exit creek outside of the spillway never goes down??) - are they selling water to oil companies for fracking - what do you think...all i know is where the water isn't staying.

i am an attorney and my frustration has been everyone's willingness to complain, but do nothing. i am not a landowner, so i don't have standing. Whole situation stinks, but someone needs to demand answers.

I am in the business, and first need to point out that only the ignorant media spell it fracking ..... fracing does not have a K in it!

Second, yes we use a lot of water ... so much that it is measured in barrels and there are 42 gallons to the barrel.

I don't think fracing is the cause of the drought or the low lake levels.

I don't think anyone thought it caused a drought.

Well actually.... I thought that fracking/fracing was the answer to John Fogerty's/CCR's seemingly rhetorical question "Who'll stop the rain".

just to put an end to the debate as to how to spell the short version of hydraulic fracturing:

http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/fracking-fracing-or-fraccing

peace.

interesting information in here for sure .....
but to be sure when November rainfall amounts are 25 % or so less than the average
and this has been pretty much the scenario year round for a while
we will continue to see lower lake levels
we should be very glad Tarrant Regional owns lots of east texas water
or the dfw area would be suffering considerably more than currently

interesting.

That does not put an end to it ..... it just adds the opinion of somebody outside looking in!

Alright, I will start calling it phracking. That gives it some street cred.

FRACK this .... I am going fishing!!!!

You laughed. Admit it.

I admit it was phat.

I have heard some about this. and it scares the hell out of me! I just cant wrap my head around it. The day's of letting the government handle things and not worrying about it are over for sure. Scary Sh$t.

Oh and the fracking.. All that gas and oil is in the Earth for a reason.. Us humans will self destruct. That is a fact.

Does anyone have any proof of this, or is this just a conspiracy thing?

If you look hard enough or talk to people in the business it doesn't take long to gather your own opinion. It's nearly unregulated from start to finish and there's no proof of the ripple effects of it (yet).

Business can be conducted in a manner least invasive and companies that profit (excessively) from it need to be the ones putting their best foot forward on it. This isn't the first time this has happened in history so remember that business has and will do what they want the cheapest they can until something happens.

Some more food for thought is there are no benefits for the tax payers who have footed the bill for all these reservoirs. No price drop of water, no benefit of less consumption, no new reservoirs, no boat ramp extentions etc. It's all kept between the municipality and the companies.

People who have lol "lakefront" properties have to pay the city a lease fee even though their land hasn't touched the lake in years? McDonald's and QT have an over watered beautiful lush green lawn in August while there are Residential water restrictions?

Just sayin sometimes the blue collars ain't the problem like we're being told we are.

Understand the concept of frackng. But, have researched the lake levels of east Texas and wondering why some lakes usually stay full and others are low and stay low.

Results:
Lake Tyler has a drainage basin of 107 sq miles
Lake Palestine has a drainage basin of 839 sq miles. Also several creeks and the Neches river
Cedar Creek has a drainage basin of 1007 sq miles

Do not have the answers. Interesting results since all fisher folks have issues launching boats in low or no water ramps. Merry Christmas to all and good catch of crappie...

Unfortunately it is a lack of rain in the watersheds that is the problem. We just can't seem to get the kind of rain that produces run-off like we need. It will happen. I doubt that the problem is the water used in fracking. Doesn't help, but not the fundamental problem. Using the 4.5 million gallons to develop a well as mentioned above, that amounts to only approx. 15 acre ft of water. That spread over a relatively small lake of 5,000 surface acres is not many inches.

We need rain to saturate the soils in the watershed and then we need rain on top of that for runoff.

I am in Eagle Ford, but I hear that in the Barnett Shale most of the water is recycled and less water is taken from the ground and local lakes and ponds.

Phracking - love it! - very Phunny! More debate helps as long as people are constructive. As i have said, i am new to this and just speak to what i see. Don't believe in conspiracy theories - just tired of rain and no improvement.

I think they refract when the well starts playing out. Try to read something on that. Nobody promised anyone water your on your on . It goes to the highest bidder. Contrail, Cemtrail who knows.

Most of the frakkin in east texas is done by first drillin a water well.

Tanks may sit for 3-4 weeks before enough water has been accumulated to do the frakkin.

And doesn't the amount of water depend on the length of the horizontal bore?


Face it folks. There is no more "liquid" in this earth than there was 6000 years ago.

Lake Tyler watershed stinks compared to Palestine. ..

Then again. How much water falls on the city of Tyler and flows right down west mud creek into Rayburn?

City of Tyler needs to be the principal owner of Lake Columbia/Eastex and pump water back in to Tyler.

I would like to see the impact bottled water has on our lakes. Think about how many bottles of Dasani are in Texas alone, and a whole bunch of them are bottled with Dallas municipal water.

Probably not measurable.

Tyler is full....

DFW is about to get much much bigger. With Toyota, State Farm, Kohls, and Amazon coming to town, that alone will add close to 10,000 people next year alone and thats just the tip of the iceberg. DFW is projected to be over 20mm in population by 2020 … 5 years from now. Where do you think that water is going to come from? Yep, east of here.

I don't know what is causing the drought; but I do think we all need to rethink our consumption including big businesses.

All we need to fill the lakes up again is a Hurricane or a couple good tropical storms.

On vertical wells you are correct. However on horizontal wells it is common to frac multiple zones and use 3-5+ million gallons of water.

You are wrong about west texas and no population boom. Midland/ Odessa has almost tripled in population in the past 10 years, Abilene is almost 50% larger! San Angelo is over 30%.
I can you for sure that the drought is the problem. When a creek goes dry the creek bed then goes dry. The creek beds in west texas are dryer then they have ever been. Before the creeks can run for any amount of time the water is drawn into the beds. Until they are saturated runoff will not stay constant. Also when a lake has hundreds if not thousands of exposed dry acres that dry land has to saturate before the lake rises and stays up any. Unless we have a huge flood the creeks will continue to suck up these 4 and 5 inch rains.

.

Interesting question so I looked. If you use simple averaging which is on the low side since more water is drank here than in cooler climates this is what I got.
There are 50 billon bottles sold in the US each year, about 400 bottles per person. There are 27 million people in texas so that works out to 5.4 billions bottles a year in texas. So that works out to appx 6.4 billion gallons of water.
That's a lot folks.

About 1 foot of depth on a lake that has 20,000 surface acres for all of the bottled water in Texas. Not much.

A little bit here for commercial use, a little bit there for the oil industry, a little bit to keep the lawns green for the Home Owner Associations, etc., etc., etc.

You wake up and find that all those little bits have the area lake levels low since the ongoing drought has not allowed Nature to refill the lakes.

And every proponent of those little bits arguing that their use of the water is not at fault, blame it all on Nature for allowing a drought to exist.

This makes sense, since Nature does not have a proponent to argue the case that it's greed of men that is causing the problem. And who could also argue that the drought may also have been caused by the greed of men during this industrial age.

I believe that the reasons for our low water levels are several. Fracturing, population boom, water bottles, lack of rain, water rights going to certain cities, people watering their yards too much, etc. are all contributing to this. Bottom line is these conditions aren't going anywhere anytime soon so we all need to adapt to the new conditions we have. With this year being an el Nino year and not being very productive heavy rain wise, I truly think the only thing that will bring us the water we need is either a hurricane or tropical storm. I also believe that we as fisherman need to draw attention to these issues in order for our kids and our kids kids to be able to enjoy these lakes as we do/did at one time. This is something that is going to need to have attention on it either now or when it's too late. I remember that my weather professor told me that the west texas desert is expanding and that in the next 10 to 20 years we will be considered a desert. Who knows if he's right but it sure seems like that is the path we are heading towards.

The amount of water on Earth is always the same. It's a closed system. If it isn't in your area it is somewhere else. It is continually recycling through the atmosphere.

Earth's waters are continually in motion in a process known as the hydrologic cycle. The process consists of water entering the atmosphere through either evaporation or transpiration and returning to the Earth's surface through condensation and precipitation. The same water throughout history has been transferred from the oceans into Earth's atmosphere and then dropped upon land where it eventually moves back to the seas. It evaporates from oceans, streams, lakes, rivers and other forms of surface water and rises into the sky as water vapor.

Water vapor comes together in the form of precipitation which then falls to the Earth. About 70 percent of this water evaporates back into the atmosphere. The water that doesn't evaporate remains on the surface and runs off into ponds, lakes and rivers or seeps into the soil to become groundwater.
The sun supplies the energy to keep the water moving from the Earth to the atmosphere and back to Earth. At any given time, about five gallons of every 100,000 gallons of water on Earth is in motion. Viewed as a cycle of nature, this process has neither a beginning nor an end. No water is actually gained or lost, but the amount of water available to any user may fluctuate and changes in water quality.

Now that's an answer.Thanks learned something today.Darrell

Have the lake levels dropped more in the past 3 years (2011-2014) or the 3 years prior to that (2008-2011)?

Unfortunately lake levels will drop much more in the future during periods of drought than they do today. Almost all of the water in Texas lakes is committed to users who today only use a small fraction of the water they have purchased for long time use. Most cities have enough water to take care of their needs for another 50 years including their anticipated growth. Most are probably using only a small fraction of that now so as they grow and use more water, the lakes will fluctuate more.

Most lake managers sell or plan on the amount of water that will be available during the drought of record for the watershed of the lake. In theory, if we had another drought of record, and everyone used the water they had a commitment for, the lake would go dry the day it began to rain again. But if the drought is worse than the drought of record, we would be out of water if everyone used the amount of water they were entitled.

Most of the lakes spill water when we are in periods of high rainfall and actually the amount captured is a small portion of the water that passes through. Unfortunately, few good reservoir sites are available for development.

Not much encourages conservation other than cost. Future water supplies will be much more costly than the present cost which I suppose could cause most to rethink their landscaping and industrial use of water. I suppose it could eventually affect the location that people chose to live and the location of industries, but it hasn't so far.

I'm definitely not the expert here, and maybe this isn't as big of problem here in Texas as it is back in Kansas with all the farm ground, but on very wet years, soil erosion fills the bottom of our lakes with silt. And this lake volume area is never replenish-able unless expensive dredging or digging out during very dry years. I'm not downing farming at all as my parents still farm and conservation practices are getting better with no-till farming practices.

As someone already mentioned, it's a combination of all previously stated factors. But personally I think the lack of consistent rainfall over multi-year periods is the main contributor to the low lake levels.

Water quality is a problem, too. Google Tennessee Colony lake project and read about the giant lake project for the trinity in the '70's that would have covered all of where Richland Chambers is now, and backed up all the way to the Cedar Creek dam. It was never built because the polluted trinity would have given it even more water quality problems than Livingston suffers from.

In these days of drought and low water, that's a real shame, too. More wetlands projects like the one on the East Fork Trinity would seem to be a good way to reclaim some of that polluted water.