Balch springs police shoot 15 year old

This one is not going to turn out good for the police.

I saw it this morning but haven't heard anything else on it.

It sure didn't turn out well for the 15 year old.

Even the chief said it did not look good . He changed his toon this afternoon after looking at the body cam

Yep, it appears the officer lied, per the chief's comments.

This won't end well. Their attorney is calling for war.

I feel pretty safe in aledo.

When I first read about it yesterday. I got a gut feeling that these kids were just trying to escape the gunfire that everyone heard.

Geez, the very first links that popped up when searching make this a racial thing. Let see gun fire, speeding cars oh its because of his skin color. If the cop lied the family will get paid but I doubt he shot because of skin color

Haven't seen the video yet. Just curious if he shot him with his rifle is that normal to have your rifle drawn while responding to "teenagers acting drunk"?

I read he was a passenger in a car that was backing toward the leo aggressively.

may have been trying to escape the shots.

that is about all I know so far

The police chief said he made a mistake. The car was going forward. This was a true good kid. Damn shame.

thats usually how it happens . the good kids get caught up in what the bad kids are doing and the bad kids skate free.

Camera footage obviously has the chief backing off the officers' story quickly...

Yep.

Just read police chief statement. Officer should be seeking legal help quickly. He is probably toast.

heard protest wednesday in the streets of balch springs..

Where'd you hear that?

facebook

I wonder if they will be protesting for the guy that shot the paramedic or the other that went on a stabbing spree in Austin today also. Its a very bad/sad deal but making this something is not does not help anyone but lines the pockets of a few.

Regrettably, if this follows history that part of town is due for some rough times. Especially, if outside agitators come Hopefully, the federal specialists in resolving these issues have early success.

probably just the locals protesting the fact they live in Balch Springs

I know everybody on here hunks they are perfect, and that LEO's should be perfect too, but none of are. I can't speak as to wether the officer lied (intentional) or had a memory lapse when it came time to give his statement. Both of which could have easily happened after enduring a high stress situation.

I myself, got caught up in a mess like this, I never fired my weapon, but I gave a stately that contradicted body cam footage. They tried to hammer me because I got the events out of order and I stated that the suspect raised his right hand when it was actually his left hand. Was I lying? No. I was recalling information the way my brain proseccessed it.

Many of you may remember the Dallas officer that shot the mentally ill man in the chair. The officer stated he took steps towards the officers with a knife, so he fired. Camera footage showed the suspect took steps backwards. Did the officer lie? I don't know. A lie is intentional, and the only person that can know that truth is that officer.

P.S. I'm not taking sides, I quit that a long time ago. If the officers did lie, then f@&$ him. I feel bad for everybody, on both sides, that's having to deal with this

Whole post was good but this was well said bud. Effing sucks

BigPig, you have a very tough job and within the last couple of years it has become even harder for reasons that I just can't understand. I agree with every thing that you said and I can see how mistakes could have been made. From what I have heard this happened late at night, shots had been fired or were fired when the officer was on scene, and then a car is taking off. There is a lot to be processed in a VERY short period of time time.

I do not know this officer and I'm sure this was nothing but a mistake and done without malice. I'm sure the officer has already asked himself what could he have done differently and many other questions. This will change and effect him as well.

What I hate to see and hear is that nothing will be done and that all officers are bad. I was listening to the radio this afternoon and one of the sports station radio jocks made the statement that nothing is done when a officer shoots someone and it's not justified. This just couldn't be further from the truth and I don't know where they get this [censored]!

Thanks for the job you do and stay safe out there.

Gotta think about it like this , youre somewhere and someone starts shooting would you just sit there ? Probably not but what if you drive away and all of a sudden your wife or child was shot in the head just because you tried to get yourself out of a dangerous situation. And also when are bad officers charged with murder when they falsify stories? Remember philando castille? The police chief came out and said his officer completely lied about the whole situation and mr castille didnt threaten him , he didnt reach for his gun, no sudden movements , he let the officer know he was licensed to carry and the officer just out of nowhere shot him mid sentence and watched him bleed out all while threatening to shoot his girlfriend with his child in the back seat. Murder right , wrong invoountary manslaughter. That is the type of officer who gives the many good officers a bad wrap. I wonder how his kid is going to feel seeing her father getting executed right in front of her face? I wonder how everyone that knows this kid and knew he was a good one who didnt give anyone problems are going to feel about law enforcement? All we have to do is start holding everyone to the same standards because if we did what some of these rogue officers do we will be in jail no questions asked for murder , we cant even shoot someone in the back if they walk up to us,rob us at gunpoint, pistol whip us and steal our crankbaits . Btw there are plenty of good cops out there what bothers me is that they get prejudged and put in harms way due to the actions of the bad ones.

Not a lawyer, but I think to get a murder conviction you need to prove aforethought, meaning it has to be premeditated. Proving that an officer pulled up to someone that they've never met and thought "hmm I'm just going to kill this guy here in the next few minutes" is probably tough to do. Btw, the police are not the only ones who kill someone and get charged with manslaughter instead of murder. Happens everyday in this country.

I wish we were held to the same standard as citizens. Did you know that as police officer we don't have the right to plead the 5th and we are subjected to Double Jeopardy?

You need to understand how the brain works under high stress situations before you can criticize any person in how they react to a threat, police officer of civilian

But you're not ordinary citizens, the police can kill people. The standards for police being able to shoot citizens and not be liable for wrongdoing are much lower than for ordinary citizens. Even if a cop goes to trial, convictions are rare, even if the evidence of wrongdoing is overwhelming.

This looks to be a bad deal all the way around. I was curious about one thing. I wonder if the fact the officer used a rifle to shoot the person, rather than his handgun, have any role in what his intent was. Just seemed kind of strange to me.

I thought everyone in the US had the right to the 5th!

So why is it that the jurors (who have all the evidence presented not just what they hear on TFF and Facebook) choose not to convict them? Could it be in more complicated than what it appears at first?

I agree with you , we need to hold everyone to the same standards in all aspects. Also i can understand the high stress situations but our troops are in extremely high stress situations , they are literally at war daily but they still follow rules of engagement and if they don't they go to prison. I do believe that officers are stressed , they have to protect and practically babysit some people , listen to lies all the time etc. I wouldn't be able to be a officer because the avg citizen now a days ticks me off

I'd sure like to see the US Supreme Court ruling on this.

See the Michael Slager mistrial. Shooting a guy in the back and lying about the circumstances, and all on video. Complicated? Note he is still liable, but it's difficult to see why a juror ignored the evidence.

See the failure of a grand jury to indict Daniel Pantaleo, who used a forbidden choke hold and killed a guy. Once again, all on video.

See the killing of James Boyd, literally executed, but a mistrial for the cops involved. All on video.

Yes you do. You don't have the protections of the First Amendment (free speech) while on duty, but you can damned sure plead the 5th in a criminal trial.

Because some people will back the blue regardless of the situation, that's what it boils down to. It doesn't matter what they see on video they will not convict.

Police can stop a threat by whatever means are justified, not everybody that gets shot dies. Hell, some people die after being tasered, it happens.

A murder conviction requires the INTENT to kill somebody. Manslaughter requires NEGLIGENCE. Both of which are very hard to prove when you start talking about an officer doing their job, to protect the public and themselves, while using the minimum force required to stop the threat. When a police officer shoots somebody that is called DEADLY FORCE, meaning the outcome could result in death, and therefore is the highest amount of force available.

Once again, I'm not taking sides on this Balch Springs deal, but you can't condemn police officers as a hole without knowing the facts of the job

It doesn't matter what weapon he used, pistol or rifle, once the need for deadly force has been reached he could use a knife if that what he had to use.

I'm not condemning cops as a whole. My point is that the standards for the use of deadly force can be loose and open to broad interpretation, and the judicial system historically accepts those broad standards or interpretations.

michael slager

It's just a bad deal all the way around.
I haven't really followed up on it since the story originally broke.
From what I read Sunday. It's very plausible that these kids were fleeing from the gunshots that everyone heard. That being said. The cop doesn't know that's the case. All he knows is there were shots fired while on scene. Next thing here comes a car hauling tail in his direction.
I also read Big Pigs comments. What he states about details getting mixed up is also very plausible. It reminds me of an experiment way back in school where everyone had a different perspective of what happened.
One thing I like and respect about BP is he always tries to explain all these situations from a cops perspective. Things us civilians don't normally understand.
It's easy for everyone to armchair quarterback these situations. It's even easier for the screaming libs to point fingers at the cops every time this stuff happens. When in reality. Some of these are caused by over zealous cops. Some are caused by thugs doing thuggish things. This particular one I believe falls on the person who originally fired shots. If those shots were never fired. This young man would probably still be alive. If the shots were never fired, the house party would have been broken up like they have been for years.
I just find it hard to place blame on the cop in this. I also find it hard to place blame on the kids in this. That is solely going off information I have read up to this point. They will probably never find the original shooter. But the kids blood is on their hands. IMO

Take a deep breath, and wait until all the facts are put on the table...


I really wish folks would stop jumping to conclusions.
Often trying to impress others and themselves.

yep. good kid caught in a bad situation. Prayers for all involved.

do what you want but my comments were just as legitimate as anyones and I didnt direct any of my comments at anyone.
The shot came through the front windshield and they were supposed to be behind the car in fear of their life?

This, kid was a friend of my son. Good kid not a thug.

Also reports are that he was the passenger in the vehicle, that doesn't help the situation at all.

Plain and simple I do not understand what the cop was thinking firing into that vehicle. I get that it is not easy being a cop never has been but right now incredibly hard. Does not matter you have to be smarter than just to open fire on a vehicle especially since you really don't know if they are even involved in a crime at all.

I can relate to that BigPig. I worked at the state hospital in Rusk for the last two years. Just recently got canned for shoving a patient with both hands. No one saw it, camera either wasn't working or didn't show enough... patient went screaming that I pushed him, I admitted it. Didn't matter that the patient stuck me with his shoulder and elbow as he cut in line and muscled his way past me, didn't matter that patient was 15 years younger and 40 lbs heavier, didn't matter that I was mad at myself immediately afterward but couldn't explain why I reacted that way. I had never physically reacted that way at the hospital even though in the previous six weeks I had been hit in the head or face on four separate occasions and kicked in the stomach once by different patients. Just part of the job. It didn't matter to the investigators that we were severely short handed, that the replacement staff were often in fear from not knowing the patients, or that many of the staff were always slow or last to respond knowing that it safer to just watch.

Glad I'm out of there and can't imagine how tough it would be, to be a cop.

If you commit a crime and it results in someone's death you can be charged with the murder right (like a get away driver can be charged even though they didn't kill the clerk)? So could the person who fired the initial gun shots be charged in this case? Zeek what say you?

I think you can be charged. Doesn't mean you will be convicted but the whole indicting a ham sandwich thing comes to mind.

Seems like I read about a case where an officer shot at an unarmed suspect and missed and killed a bystander. They were charging the suspect with murder of the bystander.

I think the rule you're looking for is called "Felony Murder". If you commit a felony, and ANYONE dies in the process, then you can be charged with the death, even though you did not actually kill the person.

The application of this rule that I love seeing is when criminals attempt a home invasion, bank robbery, etc and have a getaway driver. A would-be victim fights back and kills the intruders. The getaway driver gets charged with felony murder even though his accomplices are the dead bodies, and they were killed by the citizen/victim.

Not really sure what to think of the present case from the OP without more facts.

It's human nature to make mistakes. Funny how nobody says as much about doctors killing people everyday. They make a mistake and you die, oh well it's due to "complications from surgery". Irony

The Chief has stated the vehicle was moving forward, not backing up toward the officers. Bad shoot and this cop could be charged with murder, but I'd imagine it's going to be to a lesser degree.

One thing I just read that really pizzes me off is a statement from the boy's family. The part about we're getting tired of this same old story. Police shooting young black men. Do we know for a fact the officer knew the young man was black? This happened at night, correct? If the cop screwed up, throw the book at him. But please don't use this incident to fan the flames of racial hatred.

Don't some cities have a 2-3 day time period after a shooting for an officer to give a full statement because it gives the brain time to fully comprehend the situation he was in and all that went on? I thought I seen that before on another shooting in another city that the officer changed a little of his story.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess my thinking is if the cop says he was reacting to the gun fire perhaps his defense would argue that the person that started the shooting is at fault. No one seems to be too worried about the fact that someone shot off some rounds while the cops were there.

Yes. My department, for a short period, went to a 7 day period, but because of citizen criticism we are now back to 1-3 days. A study by Force Science Institute found that after a high stress situation, it took up to 7 days for the actor to recall the event correctly. There's is a lot more mental/physical/psychological that goes on too, that most will never experience.

To immediately bash this officer, merely 24hrs after the incident, isn't good for the officers psyche.

thats what creates the pay day. No one wants to have a honest conversation on the truth and the facts. Race pimping sells. Once they start pushing this balch spring will fold faster than superman at the laundry mat. Again sad deal all around, but saying it was because the color of ones skin is very unlikely. When I googled this even the first link went straight to color of skin. House party , gun shots, speeding cars Im sure people running and screaming but it was the color of his skin. Crazy

Not saying it's the case in this instance,but a motor vehicle can be a deadly weapon by use and intent....so shooting into the windshield of a truck that's trying to run you down because they just killed someone and are trying to escape would be completely perfect... double pinky swear promise, t shirt awarded.

I haven't even started digging into this one yet. No point digging till more info is out.

Based on this thread, though. I am still confused about which direction the vehicle was pointed and whether it was moving toward or away from the officer.

The police chief is saying the officer's story doesn't match the body cam and that's not cool. The kid was apparently not a thug and was just a passenger in the car. The family lawyer is playing the race card and everything has the potential to blow up. That about cover it?

Office to be fired tonight.

I read what I could find....there are extremely limited circumstances that an officer can fire at someone moving away from them....this was not one of them.... He's going to be charged with criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter.....

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm

I make no excuses for him....and I don't buy the high stress made him give a false statement [censored] either....

Live feed of police chief press conference

http://www.wfaa.com/news/live_breaking/wfaa-breaking-news/32629471

Wife catches me cheating " I'll get back to you in a couple days while I get my mind straight"

"It has been decided Roy Oliver violated several protocols. Which ones will not be disclosed at this time, since he can appeal the termination."

Paraphrased.

Kid was strait A freshman and a football player. I am not judging anybody... thank God I grew up in a small town in east Texas and am white. When I ran the local law .... the worst thing that happened to me is I went to city hall at 1:00 AM and and my grandfather and the Chief was taking shots of whisky and told me to take my arse home.

Yeah that'll work

white folk more likely to be shot by po po

No excuses for officer,but I wasn't at any "house party" at 11:00 PM when I was 15 and 12 (his brother) .... What was going on there? Who fired the shots heard? Who called the police and for what??

The fact that John [censored] Wylie Price felt compelled to open his suck is just awesome...

One thing ive noticed over my couple of years living in van alstyne and being a rare black is that the officers here are alot more friendly than the officers in areas where there are alot of minorities. They speak , wave and never make me feel odd or like they are looking for me to make a mistake. Even when there was tension because of all the back and forth theyve always been pretty cool

We didn't do house parties either. We had a country roads where you could see cars coming for miles. We also had secluded places back in the woods to party at.

Don't care what or who you are. Work and play during the day. After dark hit the hay. Better chance to see the next day.

Not so much..

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

That body cam footage must be really bad because I aint never seen a police department distance themselves from an officer so quickly. They washed their hands of that cop in a New York minute!

You don't have to buy it. But it's true and it happens.

This past January my partner and I got shot at. We didn't have a safe background to return fire, so we followed and had the guy stopped when more cover arrived.

We have our statements to SIU, maybe 3 hours after the shooting. Both of us were sitting in the front seats of our Yukon, we both gave different recollections of what happened and when & where the shooter was when he shot. Were we lying? No. Did we have something to hide? No.

The fact was , we were in a high stress situation and our brain was working in over drive. It was 230am, shooter was 30 yards away, and I put out over the radio that he had a silver Berreta pistol. I somehow saw the pistol from that distance, because you tend to focus on the immediate threat, but I couldn't tell the investigator which parking lot I was in when he shot. I also didn't recall driving over curbs and through 4 foot tall bushes trying to escape.

When your mind goes into hyperdrive like that, it takes a while for the brain to put the events in correct order.

And that is real talk right there... Boots on the ground dealing with it daily.

I guess everyone is different sir.....no disrespect intended, but I did not make my comments off hand.

In this instance, no way he perceived a car going away as one backing toward him....but I haven't seen the video so...

Thanks for your service THFBigPig

What precinct are you working if you do not mind me asking Bud?

I can tell you about two lethal force instances where statements were given to the Rangers within a couple of hours, and were spot on perfect.... Doesn't mean anything other than people are different, and training is King...

All cops can't be trusted.

These threads always end up in the same exact place.

2 Beez...I can see that you're aggravated....I'm a Texas Master Peace Officer (Retired) that worked 22 years in East Texas...then I worked for 9 years as a Special Investigator for the State of Texas Child Protective Services...and now I'm a criminal investigator for a capital case public defender's office. I've been a TCOLE instructor since 1989, firearms and use of force predominantly. I've also taught defensive tactics since the early 90's. I also own a private security guard company and I'm a Qualified Manager for The Texas Board of Private Security - DPS....this is just a few things....I don't comment about these things off the cuff "Bud"

Looks like we are about to reach that point where we get there

While I will agree that training is king. One can train how to react but one can not train their mind to recall exactly what occurred during such an event.

With your training and background, you for one should understand that what you perceive during a stressful event isn't always what it is. And that officers have mere seconds to evaluate and francfions of a second to react.

Maybe you should read up on http://www.forcescience.org/phone/index.html

Cool as a cucumber Sir. I knew you were law enforcement but did not know what sector. Now I know

I will take care of this one. If you commit a felony not just a crime and somone is killed during the commission of the felony, then you could be charged with murder.

Like I always say, if you have to shoot someone better to go ahead and waste all the witnesses so their is only one side of the story to tell.

Guess he should have shot his body camera then.

While wearing it.

Yup. Same people saying the same thing using the same rationale.

I have family members and friends that work in law enforcement. To say all cops are bad and all cops are good would both be equally ridiculous statements.

Having said that at the absolute very best this officer is guilty of severely f'i g up this situation. I get Big Pigs assertion of high stress situations but I dont think you confuse the car was backing up aggressively tryin to kill me and the car was driving away posing no threat to me. How to you fire i to a fleeing car not knowing the situation? What if the orginal shots were from a home invasion and the shooters kidnapped this kid?

anyone seen John W. Price?????? He'll make some $$$$ on this....

Once again, I'm not saying this officer is right or wrong, I won't take sides. I will give insight into what I know and have experienced.

We took fire one night while answering a call at an apartment complex on the second of 3 floors. Knocked on the door and the 9 gun shots rang out and the brick facade started exploding in my face. All shots hit about 1 foot to the left of me, my partner was on the right of me. I hit the ground, had brick pieces in my eyes. My partner directed fire into the door as we escaped. We were pinned down for a while before we could get a safe escape route.

During the interview, I knew exactly how many rounds were fired at me, but I had zero recollection of my partner firing his weapon. I could tell the investigator what door we were at, or what apt complex we were in, but I could tell him the I heard the whiz bang of every shot and clearly recall the brick exploding. My mind had virtually stopped, then thankfully went into reaction mode.

In y partners eyes, the shots were coming from inside the apt, which wasn't true, they were coming from across the parking lot from an elevated apartment. He heard gun shots, observed the bricks exploding, and did what he did. He wasn't wrong in doing so.

Until you are in that kind of stress, you don't know how you will react. I thank god each day that we both made it out unharmed, and that the lady inside the apt was unharmed.

Man I really appreciate that you take the time to help put things like this into better perspective. It's stuff most of us can't ever really understand.

So basically your partner was shooting blindly (could not see his intended target) inside of an apartment of innocent people (shots were not coming from inside the apartment) and he did nothing wrong? I know that one action caused a sudden reaction. I hope no one got hurt and hopefully you caught the @#$%^%& that was shooting at you.

I wasn't calling you out and all gour examples are situations that are easily explained and understandable. Shooting into a fleeing car that isn't endagering your life, killing an uninvolved passenger, is unacceptable. Admittedly, your job is high stress and most of the time thankless, but the people we depend on for these services have to have better judgement and decision making than that.

100% agree

ever been to the bad springs?

a little urban renewal will not hurt that place

There are between 400,000 and 500,000 officers in the United States. Many of us are faced with life and death situations on a frequent basis. We need to understand that given the frequency of these calls and an increasingly armed society officers will make mistakes. They are the exception not the rule.

So let the cop of for giving a false statement but hold all suspects to their every word no matter what? Not one sided at all....

I love the mental gymnastics it takes for you guys to come up with this stuff, truly amazing. Poor cop had to shoot his rifle into a car driving away from him, he had no choice.

What about our troops , they go thru alot more than the average officer does and they still follow the rules and get punished if they dont. Suicide bombers , tanks , enemies with ak's , ied's etc. If officers were held to the same standards people would be a little more trusting and understanding. If said officer is wrong enough to be fired he/she should go to trial and not walk scotch free. Would you be so willing to sweep it under the rug if it was one of your family members who was killed for no reason other than a officer got nervous and blindly fired at whoever was there? Not even the driver a passenger. I support our law enforcement but im not stupid enough to not see that some of these killings are completely wrong.

Interesting enough, I believe the news mentioned that this particular LEO was also a veteran. Who knows if that had anything to do with it. It's a terrible tragedy that didn't have to happen but I won't pass any judgement on them since I wasn't there to witness the situation first hand.

Think what you want and do what you want. You weren't there and I was, and I was damn glad he did what he did or else I wouldn't be here today.

It's not shooting blindly, it's directed fire. Directed at the perceived threat in hopes of gaining a little time to move to cover or evacuate. Had you seen the bricks, you too would've believed the shots were coming from inside, until you saw the Sheetrock inside the apartment. It happened within about 2 seconds, 9 shots from bad guy and 4 from my partner. Time literally stood still in my head, I could clearly here the whiz, bang, smack and then the explosion of brick. I hit the ground in my attempt to escape. My partner thought I was hit. He grabbed me with one arm and directed fire with the other to safely get us out. I thank him to this day, and he knows what he did, and the consequences that could've come.

We, as humans, as police, as doctors, as husbands and wives, can not be right or perfect every time. It's just not possible. For you to judge someone based on news media accounts, and what the chief of police said without a thorough investigation, is ludicrous.

My god, look at how many people call 9-1-1 and give the wrong description of a bad guy, or can't tell the officer what color the gun was that was pointed at their head. Should we damn them? No. We take their report as if it were any report, and we go looking for the suspect as described. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a robbery or shooting call, and the victim says a red shirt and white pants only to find out later from CCTV that the suspect was actually wearing a black shirt and blue jeans. But they can tell exactly what the tattoos on the persons face say. It's how the mind perceives things in a high stress situation.

I would also like to see the data on just where 400,000 troops are making life and death decisions on a regular basis.

Actually there are 3/4 of a million LEO's .... The percentage of egregious error in shootings is miniscule....tiny fractions of a percentage point....the number of sustainable misconduct charges of any kind is miniscule by percentage of the citizen contacts daily....