Bow Lights and CG

When I was getting ready to put mine on I sent an e mail to the USCG and this is there response






I am assuming that the BOW light you are referring to is a red and green combination light mounted on the bow. If this assumption is correct, there is no restriction on changing this combination light for individual red and green lights mounted on the rub rail as long as the lights are properly mounted and the overall white light remains one meter higher than the newly installed lights.



Phil Cappel

Chief, Recreational Boating Product Assurance Branch (CG-54223)

Office of Auxiliary and Boating Safety, United States Coast Guard
Phone: (202) 372-1076 Fax: (202) 372-1908
E-mail: Philip.J.Cappel@uscg.mil

Web: www.uscgboating.org

they still need to be visible at 112.5 degrees. But what is your question here?

Powerboats-Separate or combination red and green sidelights, 112.5°, visible 1 n.m., placed above hull at least 1 meter (3.3') below masthead light. Masthead: white, 225°, visible 2 n.m., at least 1 meter above side lights. White stern light, 135°, visible 2 n.m. OR, one all-round (360°) white light (should also have sidelights).

GW's on Austin have ticketed several boats with rail lights.

But it is only happening in Austin and if I'm not mistaken, it is one lake in particular. Ticketing doesn't mean that it is illegal, just that yhey believe it is

Game Wardens have not given any tickets on Lake Austin as far as I know. The Game Wardens on Austin have been awesome. APD has issued the tickets for lights. I was one of those that got a ticket from APD and went to court. They chose not to go before the judge ( I really wanted to go before the judge) and APD dropped my ticket. My lights were legal since I was at anchor. The officer said he will continue to give tickets to the boaters with LED. Turn on a disco light and light it up if you are at anchor. If running the lake use the CG approved lighting.



I would stick with only bow light that has the CG approved sticker on it. CG approved means that it meets all current nav rule regulations...

Please stay safe out there...Summer time means new boaters out there that don't know the rules

Do you really think that manufacturers would be installing the lights in the rub rail if it weren't USCG approved? If the USCG says the lights are in compliance with their regs, then the State of Texas will too. Austin PD needs to understand the law before they try and enforce something that doesn't exist.

Any rule or law that says the white light in the rear has to be on the starboard side?

Yes I do. The Gobee light is a light sold and even looks to be coast guard approved. It is not Coast Guard approved.

No, there is not. There are some requirements as to location, but they are not specific to the starboard corner of the stern. I think that's a preferred location for manufacturers due to the location of wiring on the boat.

Yes, boat manufacturers have installed lighting that is not in compliance with USCG regulations. The USCG audits routinely find manufacturers non-compliant. They say it's all too common. They are working on awareness programs as there are not enough inspectors to cover all manufacturing operations. Lighting one of THE most chronic issues the USCG has with manufacturers per a report that analyzed manufacturer plant audit data. In many cases, the issue was placement and visibility. A fixture that could be acceptable when installed in one way may not meet regulation when installed another way. For instance, some recessed fixtures were recessed too deeply to allow the proper arc of viewing angle. An LED strip placed on the side of a boat might be visible too far beyond 112.5 degrees as another example. (The CG allows a 5 degree swag in the point where the light disappears from view.)

Exactly....must be visible TO 112.5 degrees, and just as importantly, NOT BEYOND 112.5 degrees. (Disclaimer: The USCG tech rules seem to indicate that in actual measurement, a lighting system can go past 112.5 degrees as long as visibility goes to zero in no more than 5 additional degrees.)

Placement of LED strip lights in a rubrail and getting them to meet the 0 to 112.5 degree rule with no type of blinder would seem very problematic. I suspect many are NOT correctly visible over the required arc, and only that arc.

I'm sure there have been instances of that flippin-out, but how widespread? I can't imagine the thousands of late model Skeeters, Basscats, Rangers etc. are not in compliance.

Don't try this [censored] on lake Austin, they will give you a ticket, just because they can. There rule is if it was not factory installed then it is not legit. Every other lake that I have been to, no issues. I have even been stopped by a few game wardens and they welcome the visibiltiy that these LEDS put off, because it allows you to be seen. Which is what is the most important thing, to be seen.

Mine were factory installed by Skeeter.

I don't know the total numbers, but the big reason the USCG was disturbed is that every unit of some models produced was adding to the population of non-compliant boats due to an improper lighting design. So, everything they built with that defective design was all going out non-compliant. Speaking theoretically, if an approach to lighting hasn't been vetted properly, everything coming out of a plant could be wrong. The CG indicated they don't have the manpower to inspect every plant/model, so they count on manufacturer awareness and self-policing for compliance. That's why they were looking for ways to put compliance back in a priority above style, aesthetics, or consumer expectation for a pimped out look.

Bass boat example: In the past, a boat manufacturer often easily met sidelight regulations by slapping a well-refined industry standard fixture (bi-color light assembly on a short pole) on every boat they built. Boom, done, problem solved, fully compliant. All the detail of compliance was shifted to the supplier of that fixture who happened to be well-versed in just what it took to be complaint. Enter the LED bling fad with consumer desire for slick and cool looks. The boat manufacturer responds with a change in lighting, but this manufacturer who has been building boats for decades may not not realize the minute ramifications of their cool lighting that everyone just loves. They're there to sell boats! The marketing pressure is immense and somet things can get overlooked.

I view that LED strip technology and the fancy that consumers have taken with it have contributed extensively to lighting violations. I've seen quite a few photos of boats with extensive red/green LED strips on the side, and even one with virtually the full length of the rubrail. It's impossible to believe these installations would be technically compliant if checked. Individuals are installing them, marine repair shops are installing them, typically with little understanding of detailed requirements - more/brighter green or red is better, right? (not necessarily!)

If you want to improve safety but insure your boat remains in compliance, one good idea is to replace the existing incandescent bulbs with brighter LED substitutes. Many common bases for 12V incandescent bulbs have now been adapted to substitute LED products drawing a fraction of the current of the old incandescent bulb. They run much cooler, so higher lumens of intensity can be achieved with no excess heat issue for the existing fixture.

This ^^^^^ works for me. If I ever get a ticket for the lights I will show this in court. They are so much easier to see from a distance it only makes sense. I'm not in to splitting hairs and have had no problems with any game wardens on the lake. My LED's are wired into the pole lighting so the pole still works too if I choose to use it. Personally I like people being able to see me better.

At anchor this is legal:)

On this link:
http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/boat/safety/vessel_requirements/

No where does it state that you must have USCG approved lights. It does state that your PFD must be USCG approved though.

Is that white or green light?

8ft green
8ft blue
white strips on the transom
red interior lights to see and keep some of my night vision.

My ticket was for unapproved coast guard lighting. This was on Lake Austin from APD.

At anchor, only the white ones would be legal.

I believe this is correct. The goal is for a vessel at anchor to be discernable as anchored because it does not display any light other than the while light.

Under power, red/green down the length of the hull exceeds the 112.5 degree rule, so they wouldn't be legal then. On the bright side, you can turn them on when the boat is on the trailer. (If you want extra bling while towing, you may want to check with DOT about lighting on towed boats.)

this is legal, rub rail lighting is not legal



If you do not believe me, call up one of these guys to have a look at your boat. I have worked with them to handle stuff like this when i was to busy and believe me, they would love to inspect your boat and be happy to tell you whats legal and whats not. The Coast Guard Auxiliary are great people and love helping out the maritime community. I see them quite often on Lake Ray Hubbard, give them a shout. You will be happy you did

http://www.cgaux.org/

Here is a direct link to the page to get a vessel checked by them, you can either take it to them or they will come to you, FREE OF CHARGE!!!!!

http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=V-DEPT&category=i-want-a-vsc

That's just a summary. You have to look at the actual law to see what the standards are.

§ 31.064. Lights
A vessel or motorboat when not at dock must have and exhibit at least one
bright light, lantern, or flashlight from sunset to sunrise in all weather. A vessel
or motorboat when underway between sunset and sunrise in all weather must have
and exhibit the lights prescribed by the commandant of the Coast Guard for boats
of its class. No other lights that may be mistaken for those prescribed may be
exhibited.
Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg.,
ch. 422, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1993.

Properly mounted that means meet the requirements of approved lighting.

LOL..Way to stir the pot Mark!!

I have yet to see a manufacture have these in maybe a dealer but the point is regardless if you guys believe it or not they are not approved lights period end of story.

No it just has to be a all around white light.

I put that e mail up so everyone knows it came from the CG. I keep a copy in the boat, and have never been checked by any GW

Also 22.5 degrees abaft the beam.

No its not the only reason the reason is to be seen and it most importantly tells the other boat which way you are headed. Trust me guys I know I have a Master of Towing Vessel endorsment I tested on these rules for years and still do every 5 years this is why it should be made mandatory to take a boating and rules of the road course before you can operate a boat of any size.

abaft the beam-90 percent of people on this forum have no idea where that is, hahaha

Lighting your boat up like a Christmas tree does not make you safe on the water. The lighting on your boat determines not only if you are anchored or under way but also who has the right of way in an approaching situation. If you are ever involved in an accident and it can be determined that your blingy lighting caused the accident by confusing another boater you can break out the checkbook. This also includes accidents caused by you blinding another boater. If there are injuries, get your bank to print you extra checks, you'll need them. Trying to look cool on the water can have unintended consequences.
If there is any question as to the legality of your lighting, a certified marine surveyor can determine that and will give you a letter stating such that will probably hold up in court. As far as the APD on Lake Austin understanding the boating laws, don't expect that to happen. They are out there to generate revenue for the city.

I agree with you..."properly mounted" is going to mean they must adhere to the 112* rule.

Those are the ones that dont understand the rule and see no problem with the lights all they know is they are brighter and yes they are. We run LED out here now but they are CG approved.

This will sum it up. Until you guys fully understand the regulations and what and why they are there then you wont understand why we are telling you they are not a legal light. Those lights have way more meaning than just the visability of it they tell you the direction that boat is headed which in turn tells you how you should meet that boat. Boaters not understanding these rules is how boating accidents occur and worst case take somebodys life and for what to look cool. I just hope none of you guys thinking these lights are legal have a incident and take a life because you will be at fault solely because you were not lit with approved lighting and you will pay big time. Even if the other boater hits you you will still be at fault because you did not have approved lighting.

The bow lights installed in the nose of my '14 FX at the Skeeter factory are Coast Guard approved. Again, lamoon. INSTALLED AT THE FACTORY. They are not LED strips like Blue Water or whatever. Go by the plant in Kilgore and see for yourself. I have no other lighting on my boat. The colored deck lights, the colored lights under trailers and all that other LED add-on stuff isn't for me. It's blinding in low light if you're operating a boat with them. I never would and don't know why some do, but I'm old fashioned. Red and greens up front and a bright white in back is all I want.

My 2012 BassCat Cougar FTD has a factory installed rub-rail bow light. I've never had any issues with Game Wardens.

Sir, you are incorrect...I can have more than a white all around light at anchor.

I was a Boatswainsmate in the US COAST GUARD. That's why APD did not pursue the ticket...I knew the laws.

If someone hits a boat that is lit up like a Christmas tree they should not be on the water. It will be their fault because I will not be underway or making way. I will be at anchor.

According to the other post (or maybe way up above in this one), just because it was put in by the boat manufacturer doesn't mean it meets specifications. According to what someone posted, the coast guard reps (however they worded it) went into manufacturing facilities and found them to not be installing them correctly.

I, for one, AM a "LED HATER". I admit it. I think they deserve a place on a camping trailer or stupid rice car.

That said.....if they meet the requirements, THEY ARE LEGAL!! I, and a few others on here can bitch and cry all we want, they are still legal. If they are factory installed, and approved, which I am SURE they were....THEY ARE LEGAL. if the lights say "USCG approved", even if aftermarket.....THEY ARE LEGAL. if they DO NOT SAY "USCG approved", but somehow MEET THE CRITERIA....Guess what? THEY ARE LEGAL.

If there is an accident, the person at fault is liable. EVEN IF THEY HAVE MANAGED TO HIT A BOAT WITH LEDS!!! If the lights caused the accident, the person with the lights would be responsible. If you hit a boat that has bright LEDS on it....likely you are too impaired to pilot a boat. Chances are very good it's your fault.

All we "haters" can do is laugh and point. That's it. Or sit on here and bitch and complain.

I seriously doubt that a single person here has any athority what so ever on the subject. If someone does, they'd market some LEDS and get them approved and be selling them.

As a side note, you can get LED bulbs that fit the factory fixtures and have the amp savings and bulb life advantages....without looking like a flat bill cap and white Costas looking dork.

Off the box.

You're missing the whole point a couple of the guys on here are trying to make.....

The LED lights aren't the issue....it's the location is which they're mounted that causes them to not meet CG regulations. You can take a perfectly good light and incorrectly mount it and it becomes null and void.

Flat bills have been proven to reduce sunburns by 115%. Just ask Google.

...but only if they meet the 112 degree criteria

Boaters should be concerned about installing “decorative” lighting on their boats in various places, including under-water, on the rubrail, around speakers, or in place of proper navigation lights. Such lighting may interfere with the operator’s ability to maintain a proper lookout or not provide the proper chromaticity, luminous intensity, or cut-off angles and could result in the issuance of a notice of violation or potentially cause an accident.
Navigation lights must be approved by the US Coast Guard and should have on the packaging the following:
- USCG Approval 33 CFR 183.810
- MEETS ABYC A-16 or equivalent
- TESTED BY (an approved labora-tory) Name of the light manufacturer Number of Model Visibility of the light in nautical miles
- Date on which the light was type-tested
- Identification and specification of the bulb used in the compliance test.

What kind of calibrated gauge are they using to measure the 112.5 degrees?

Just because they put a traditional navigation light in the boat from the manufacturer doesn't guarantee that it meets specifications either. It could be too dim to be seen at the required distance or not at the correct angles. That is why you aren't responsible for factory installed devices, the manufacturer is.

The whole deal doesn't matter to me anyway. I am color blind and I can't distinguish the red from the green, from the white light. Green lights look white to me and the red/green together, blend into just one light to me. I will say, the guys who have the led lights are distinguishable to me though because they have more separation normally.

Moral of the story: If you fish around Bobby, use LEDs! Lol

And Mr Fouz post a pic of them. Just because Skeeter put them on dont make them legal dude but if they aint strips I bet you anything they are in a fixture. Nobody is saying LED's are not legal. If you have the lights the Fx 20 LE has on them then yes those are legal they are mounted inside a fixture that allows the light to be seen at the proper arc of visibility as required by USCG.

No sir you are wrong you dont know anything about what your saying. If two boats collide at night the boat that was not properly lit with approved lighting will be mostly at fault regardless.

For you guys info LED lights are not illegal listen and you might learn something LED lights that are not approved or meet the requirments are illegal.

Go read the federal regulations dude cause you have no clue and shouldnt be operating a boat yourself.

Thank you sir.

Exactly! If I see lights I just head away from them LOL

Haha.....why should I not operate a boat? Because I don't care about LEDs?

You shouldn't be Operating a keyboard. Haha.

There.....we're even.

NOTHING I POSTED IS INCORRECT.

I have three boats. Not a single one of them have lights from the manufacturer that say "USCG approved". Not one of them. All three of them have OEM installed lighting only. One of my boats is 4 months old. One is 3 years old. One is 19 years old. All three of them have very similar lights. None say anything about "USCG approved" on them. They are all three different manufacturers.

Are you telling me that these three different manufacturers, over the course of almost 20 years, have been constantly breaking Federal laws?


I get it.....you obviously are the expert on this....maybe you should tell Ranger, Nitro, and Bayliner that they are selling illegal boats. Haha. And quit preaching to me. I do "get it". I do understand that the LED lights are silly and have no place on MY boat. But....squids are squids. Can't please em all.

Steez, 1st time i ever agreed with anything you said. I can't stand the led's.

I bet you guys are also the ones that hate cell phones, the internet, and electric razors.

Yes, they are the leds mounted in a stainless steel fixture just above the rub rail on the nose of the top cap. I don't have a photo.

Flippin-Out is obviously extremely knowledgeable of the regulations and has shared his legitimate input. He has now shyed from further comment probably due to those opinions shared.

The facts are even with the memo from Chief Cappel you have to meet the regulations as a manufacturer and only use approved lighting. As a consumer you have some variance and as a recreational user. As a manufacturer the boat companies have no leniency.

We appreciate the injections shared by Flippin-Out and they are on par with the regulatory position. If you sway from that regulatory position, then you may be in default or out of compliance. The suggestion of the Coast Guard Auxillary is a great one on a boat inspection. There is no obligation and no compliance issue and they won't be able to write a violation. It will simply allow you to know if your in compliance on their opinion. Their opinion however is not binding the governing enforcement agencies to their position. The regulations are all that matter in those cases and then a judges opinion.

Thank you to Flippin-out for his sharing.

BCB

That is good Mark. I have often wondered. Especially since my new Skeeter has it already built in to the rub rail.

Maybe this will help, think before you reply.

If I install (and I have) led bow lights that meet the visibility requirements ie. arc of visibility, distance,etc. and (key word here)EXCEED the requirements then I am in compliance and legal.

Would a reasonable person agree that EXCEEDING the minimum has meet and then gone beyond the MINIMUM standard prescribed by the law?

That will be the argument to the judge, valid and to the point.

Once you EXCEED a set standard that standard becomes the baseline to judge whether you are in compliance.


I will be at my place at Williams creek Fri evening till sun about 3pm next weekend, I invite any cg rep, gw, pd etc. to come inspect my boat and try to ticket me, this needs to go to court and be put to rest.

The mere fact that a light Exceeds the min. as set forth will make it legal.

Unless you have the fixture in place at the end of the strip then you do not meet the requirements you will be seen at more than 22.5 abaft the beam which makes the light not legal.

Fouz those are legal we are talking about the strips in the rub rail not led's in general.

then send an inspector/cg/cg aux. to ticket me and lets go.


first off my lights are above the rubrail and on the bow of a champion, not a curved bow but an angled bow so your assumption that I am out due to vision past the 112* mark is erroneous and wrong. I am completely legal from the angle to be seen standpoint, pic below for verification.



as you can plainly see the angle of view is restricted due to the install location, plenty visible up to about 115* and completely legal from that aspect.


now like I posted, once you EXCEED the requirements as set forth you are still in compliance and legal due to the fact that if one EXCEEDS what is required you have not only met the requirement but EXCEEDED it.

I will gladly sign a ticket from any legal authority and take it to court on that basis, wanna go with a hunnerd on who wins?

you guy that get stuck on "the regulations say this or that" are simply not looking past the end of your nose.

"I love all you Navy boys. Everytime we have to go fight, y'all give us a ride."

This might be a good test for the those that think they know the Coast Guard rules for lights:

http://www.usboating.com/testlights.asp


USCG rules apply to all coastal waters and places like the Mississippi River, Tennessee River lakes, Red River, etc.

Coastal waters? I said that earlier and someone said I was wrong.....that it applies at Lake Fork or Lake Winnsboro or whatever....

Hopalong
I think they are illegal.
What if I put an all around red light on a short pole above the hull on one side and a green all around light on a short pole on the other side? I've exceeded the limit but you wouldn't be able to say foe certain which way I was traveling across the lake from a distance.

Although yours is not that extreme, You could be traveling away from me at an angle at night, and if I could still see one of your colored lights I would not know that. I would think you where traveling more crosswise to my point of view.

That is why the limits are there, so there is no doubt about your direction of travel due to the ability to see them or not from the point of observation.

USCG rules rule 1

(a) These rules apply to all vessels upon the inland waters of the United States, and to vessels of the United States on the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes to the extent that there is no conflict with Canadian law. The regulations of 33 CFR parts 83 through 90 have preemptive effect over State or local regulation within the same field.

your all round would be illegal due to the angle of view, mine as I have said multiple times fall well within the angle of view rule and if you can see both you are coming at me almost head on. look at the picture again, there is no way you will see both unless headed at me, coming from port you will only see the red, starboard the green, same goes if you are overtaking me, you will only see my all round and red or green but not both.


I am not foolish enough to install something on my boat/truck etc. that may end up getting me ticketed and causing problems (tournament dq for one).

like I said, once one EXCEEDS the minimum set forth in a regulation any and all arguements are moot and irrelevant. I along with others have asked gws at tournaments, some have written the cg, one that I know of wrote the cg in dc and all have rcvd the same answer, THEY ARE LEGAL as long as they meet the standards or EXCEED THEM.


man, y'all are some hard headed non believers, run the dam lights you want to but QUIT telling others the leds are illegal because WHEN INSTALLED RIGHT they are not! period end of conversation.

agree 101%, to sell new you have to have all the t's crossed and i's dotted but as an aftermarket consumer if I install leds and comply with the vision requirements etc. then I am legal. this has been my point all along, some dam tag on a fixture does not make it legal if it is installed or used improperly.

the first question shows it is not an accurate question.

one high white and a low red, I am on the port side of a sailboat or power vessel less than 50 meters, not just the power vessel.
tell me the difference from this pic, no moon, midnight which is which? either answer would be right.





and for those who keep trying to argue cg rules, this is where the pics above came from, tpwd rules.

Navigation Lights
Power Driven Vessels Underway: Power driven vessels of less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.) but more than 12 meters (39.4 ft.) shall exhibit navigation lights as shown in Figure 1. Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, shall show the lights in either Figure 1 or Figure 2.

Manually Driven Vessels when Paddled, Poled, Oared or Windblown

A sailing vessel of less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.), while underway shall exhibit sidelights and a sternlight which may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
A sailing vessel of less than 7 meters (23 ft.) shall, if practicable, exhibit the sidelights and a sternlight, or shall exhibit at least one bright light, lantern or flashlight from sunset to sunrise when not at dock.
All other manually driven vessels may exhibit sidelights and a sternlight, or shall exhibit at least one bright light, lantern, or flashlight from sunset to sunrise when not at dock. In vessels of less than 12 meters (39.4 feet), white lights shall be visible at a distance of at least two (2) miles. Colored lights shall be visible at a distance of at least one (1) mile. "Visible" when applied to lights, means visible on dark nights with clear atmosphere.

at dock, from tpwd


Lights Required
All vessels including motorboats, sailboats, canoes, kayaks, punts, rowboats, rubber rafts, or other vessels when not at dock must have and exhibit at least one bright light, lantern or flashlight visible all around the horizon from sunset to sunrise in all weather and during restricted visibility.

and you always had plenty of light to get there too, didn't ya?

Exceeding the visible distance min. seems OK to me because it is stated as a min distance, but not the angle of visibility, which is a set limit written in the law just like a speed limit on a road.
That is how I understand it when I have read the rules.
You may be right, and it may be OK to exceed the angle of visibility limit, but where in between the stated limit and 360 degrees is the max. allowed before it becomes illegal if it is legal to exceed the angle of visibility by even one degree?

Kind of like, I can exceed the speed limit on a road by a few MPH and not get a ticket, but I still broke the law by exceeding the limit posted.

I don't really know the actual angle of visibility of your lights, but they appear to be visible from farther back than what is prescribed by the rules, and by my interpretation of the rules that would make them illegal. I do believe that your lights would not be a problem to navigate around if we where both navigating on the same body of water, but that's not what determines legality.

The rules could be written a little clearer and state a max. angle of view, then there would be no differences in opinions on the matter like we have here, but that is the difference that I interperet the angle stated as the maximum allowed, and it seems that you view it as the minimum allowed.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! max angle of view for bow lights is 112.5* as has been posted on here multiple times, you are allowed a 5* variance.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule23

c) In vessels of less than 12 meters in length:

(i) a masthead light, 2 miles;
(ii) a sidelight, 1 miles;
(iii) a towing light, 2 miles;
(iv) a white red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
[(v) a special flashing light, 2 miles. ]

Rule 21 - Definitions Pilot Vessels Return to the top of the page

(a) "Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel [, except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to the fore and aft centerline of the vessel].

(b) "Sidelights" means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side. In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length the sidelights may be combined in one lantern carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel [, except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length the sidelights when combined in one lantern shall be placed as nearly as practicable to the fore and aft centerline of the vessel].
(c) "Sternlight" means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel.

(d) "Towing light" means a yellow light having the same characteristics as the "sternlight" defined in Rule 21(c).

(e) "All-round light" means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 360 degrees.

(f) "Flashing light" means a light flashing at regular intervals at a frequency of 120 flashes or more per minute

now let me splain this lucy, all of ya pay attn here.


"Sidelights" means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side


showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees. key word here is HORIZON not fore and aft of the centerline but from a distance entailing 112.5 degrees, a full circle is 360 degrees, 90 degrees is one quarter of that and 112.5 is approx. one third of a full circle, soooooooooooooooooo, if you are on my starboard side and looking from a distance you should be able to see my green light for a full 112.5 degrees from centerline which means clear back to almost the stern on my champion.


22.5 degrees from abaft the beam means that if you are positioned on my stern and looking forward you should be able to see my light from 22.5 degrees on, 22.5* is one sixteenth of a full circle, draw one and divide it into 16 equal spaces and place a boat dead center. from the stern you need to be able to see the light from at least a 22.5* angle.



man I hope this helps some of ya understand how these rules work, leds are legal as long as they meet or EXCEED THE visibility requirements.

This is the best way I can explain what I'm trying to say.
The perspective may not be perfect but it is close.
The lines at 22.5 deg. are the max angle of visibility of the sidelights the way I understand it with a 5 deg. variance..
I just would like to know if you are saying, and if in fact it is legal to exceed that angle of visibility on a vessel less than 12 meters in length.
That seems like what is causing confusion and needs clarification weather it is legal or not to exceed that angle.
Yours appears as though they are visible beyond 22.5 deg. plus 5 deg. variance.
Not really wanting to argue about it but 22.5 deg. is an actual value that can be measured and the big question is, Is it legal to exceed that angle of visibility? YES or NO.

Note:
I didn't just measure exactly 22.5 degrees and draw it on the picture.
I tried to get the angles to fit the perspective of the picture without a bunch of complicated layout and formulas. The drawn angles on starboard and port sides are different due to the perspective and angle in which the boat picture was taken.

I did a little layout trick to double check my angles just now.
The angle on the left side of boat is actually drawn at 27.5 deg. and the angle drawn on the right side is almost perfectly 22.5 deg.
So the angle drawn on the left side is the maximum angle described in the regulations.
Looks like your lights extend back past the slight curve in the rubrail and are visible beyond the max. 27.5 deg variance.

Beyond this, like I said I'm not trying to argue but Just trying to clarify things.
I will be at Lake Fork this weekend for the Skeeter tournament and would be glad to lay out some precise angles on your boat with painters tape or pieces of cardboard and we can see if they show beyond those angles of vision or not.
I'm not saying your wrong because I really don't know. I just know how I interperate the rules and I know how to measure and layout angles precisely.
I gotta git to work for now, I'll be back tonight.

you are missing the part about abaft of the beam, aka, from behind the boats stern.

maybe this helps some of ya, this is why my boat is legal and goes beyond on the distance, not the angles. most of, if not all boats I see with led bow lights are within this angle of view.

http://www.alisonosinski.com/?p=166

I hate those lights. I've come across boats like this at night and they are so damn bright I cant make anything out and my partner and I are both young. I cant tell if the boat is going left, or if it is going right, or if it's a dock with lights on it. Its so confusing I'm not suprised why so many people dislike them. If you're going to run the lake in those, dont be bitching at the person that doesnt know to go left or right of you because they cant tell which way you're headed or if at rest and fishing.

if he runs with all those one then he is illegal and could cause problems, if he just uses the short bow light and has matching red on the other side then he is most likely legal. picture does not give any idea of the angle you can see them from.

if he is anchored with all those on again illegal, white light visible all round is all you are allowed at anchor or while on the trolling motor ie. not under big motor power.

I don't think that you could see the lights on any boat that I have ever owned if that is the correct measured 22.5 degrees

I aint left yet, and I aint missing the part about aft of beam either.
The distance is easy to understand and I completely agree. LED lights are perfectly fine so long as they meet the minimum brightness required.
The question is the angle of visibility with how they are installed.
Is it legal in your opinion to exceed the prescribed angle of visibility? YES or NO
I think it is not.

Now I really gotta git.

most bow fixtures are not visible from the mid point (beam) of the boat. the one I got rid of (cg approved) was black on the back half and no way could it be seen behind the beam.

one example that is on a ton of boats. you would have to be at some distance to be able to see the light from behind mid point.


same with the little pole lights, back side is black on all I have ever seen and from midpoint you can not see the red or green.


but then again, what the hell do I know after being on boats most of my 60+ yrs of breathin air?

here ya go and I am done with this chit,

MY ONLY POINT in all of this is that aftermarket lights DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE DAM CG tag but only if you EXCEED the brightness and are within compliance of angle of view.

run whatever light you want but to come on here and tell us that our leds are illegal (if properly installed) is plain and simple wrong.

wasn't tryin to pizz anyone off but I don't come on here and just post random chit if anyones safety is involved, I did my due diligence and am very secure in the fact that my lights are legal and will pass muster.

now, back to the ot where the sane people are.

I'm not pizzed,
You never answered the question: Is it OK to put on sidelights that are visible past 22.5 deg. aft of beam? YES or NO. I say NO.
Aft of beam does not mean anything about the stern of the boat except that it is in that direction that the 22.5 deg. requirement is measured. The light location is where the angle measurement starts and is measured back towards the transom (aft of beam).

One more thing:
A boat moving by power of a troll motor is not at anchor and you are required to display red and green sidelights because it is a power driven vessel and also required to be registered in the state of Texas to be operated on public waterways within the state.
I know this because I got in trouble for it and got a good warning to not be seen operating the boat with nothing more than a 12v troll motor again unless I got it registered.

you can up to 5*, look at the diagram.

man, you need help with comprehension.

look, here it is one more time.


Abaft the beam. See under Beam. (Naut.) in an arc of the horizon between a line that crosses the ship at right angles, or in the direction of her beams, and that point of the compass toward which her stern is directed.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Abaft+the+beam


maybe my wording is confusing you, look at that diagram again, that is what the measurement is taken from.

and a boat on only a trolling motor is not underway concerning runnning lights, turn them on and get a ticket for improper display of running lights.
if you are in the main lake and staying on it then you better have the all round light on and not the running lights, in a cove fishing, better have the anchor light on or risk a ticket for the same. your trolling motor does not move the boat sufficiently under NORMAL FISHING to warrant the running lights. you are mostly at anchor due to sitting still more than moving.

your diagram had the 22.5 from the front, you obviously do not have a clue what you're talking about. go take a course, learn the law, read up on tpw regs and get back to us.

keel, runs from front to back on a boat/ship
beam, runs perpendicular to the keel.


and yes, in Tx. you must register any vessel that uses motorized propulsion, should have read the law. sounds like you are in a bass buster too.

the way you drew the angle is wrong to start with, see the pie diagram I posted.

112.5 degrees of angle on the horizon is what you are trying to illustrate, abaft of beam is behind the center point perpendicular to the keel line. again see the diagram.

Now I am really confused.

I don't think so.
Beam is a plane at 90 deg. to the centerline of the boat. Most boats have beam width specified at the widest point but a width measurement anywhere along the length is still defined as beam (the width)at that point. The regs. don't say at center of length or anything like that to stipulate a specific point along the center line from which to measure the angle. The angle is measured from the light itself in the direction of aft of beam which is towards the stern.

Angle on the horizon simply means that the light is mounted level with the horizon. If your boat sits in the water at a forty degree angle with the bow higher than the stern, the light has to be mounted at forty degrees so it will be level with the horizon.

Hopalong
Somehow I missed the post where you stated I don't have a clue and that I lack comprehension skills.
I think you are describing yourself there, it's pretty obvious by all the jibberish you've been posting on this subject.

I have been in the boat building business in the past. never took a course but have been exposed to this stuff a lot and know geometry pretty well too.

Seems like you don't know much at all but assume a lot and like to state opinion as fact, and disrespect people who disagree with you.

I'm done!

look at the picture, do you see the 112.5 angle? if so then this is where the "abaft of beam angle starts, this is how you measure the angles defined in the cg rule.




the jibberish is yours, you stated that you did not know to register a boat with a motor in Tx. this is a total rookie mistake and dropped your credibility a bunch.

go read up on how the measurements are taken, angles figured and get back to us, till then you are dead wrong in your assumption.


let me help ya a little (jeesh, some of you guys need to back up and think of what your posting), this whole deal was only to point out that LEDS ARE LEGAL IF INSTALLED RIGHT, got it? mine are installed right and comply with all regs per the cg, minus the little stamp that is non existent on any after market light (find me one that is stamped cg approved on the housing).

from tpwd regs.

Lights Required
All vessels including motorboats, sailboats, canoes, kayaks, punts, rowboats, rubber rafts, or other vessels when not at dock must have and exhibit at least one bright light, lantern or flashlight visible all around the horizon from sunset to sunrise in all weather and during restricted visibility.

Navigation Lights
Power Driven Vessels Underway: Power driven vessels of less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.) but more than 12 meters (39.4 ft.) shall exhibit navigation lights as shown in Figure 1. Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, shall show the lights in either Figure 1 or Figure 2.

Manually Driven Vessels when Paddled, Poled, Oared or Windblown

A sailing vessel of less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.), while underway shall exhibit sidelights and a sternlight which may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
A sailing vessel of less than 7 meters (23 ft.) shall, if practicable, exhibit the sidelights and a sternlight, or shall exhibit at least one bright light, lantern or flashlight from sunset to sunrise when not at dock.
All other manually driven vessels may exhibit sidelights and a sternlight, or shall exhibit at least one bright light, lantern, or flashlight from sunset to sunrise when not at dock. In vessels of less than 12 meters (39.4 feet), white lights shall be visible at a distance of at least two (2) miles. Colored lights shall be visible at a distance of at least one (1) mile. "Visible" when applied to lights, means visible on dark nights with clear atmosphere.
Proper navigation lights for Power driven vessels of less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.) but more than 12 meters (39.4 ft.) Proper navigation lights for Vessels of less than 12 meters in length






uscg reg.

(b) "Sidelights" means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side. In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length the sidelights may be combined in one lantern carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel [, except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length the sidelights when combined in one lantern shall be placed as nearly as practicable to the fore and aft centerline of the vessel].



an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent

The beam of a ship is its width at the widest point as measured at the ship's nominal waterline. The beam is a bearing projected at right-angles from the fore and aft line, outwards from the widest part of ship.

now look at this picture again. pay attn to the 112.5 and the lines making the pie cuts, look real hard.



dam near every bass boat on the water since 1980 has the widest point just ahead of the console/consoles, this is the beam measurement not some made up point anywhere on the boat. look at my hull, the widest point is just ahead of the console and this is my beam. 22.5* abaft of the beam means from just ahead of my console to the stern 22.5*.

I didn't really believe Hopalong so I've kind of kept up with this thread to see the outcome. In the meantime, I did some reading. I think he is right. It didn't make sense to measure the boat that far back and have lights that are seen that far back. My stock lights for every boat did not provide adequate lighting if that were true. I went to http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule22 . Look at Rule 22. There is a camera icon to click on and give a drawing of what is meant. It is like his drawing that he provided.

Now look at Rule 23 (d)(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in Rule 23(a) exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights. Now click on the picture and it shows the typical lights that we see on our boats.

Then there is http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=aa50d9102ce8dd7254fef969914e9b0e&node=33:1.0.1.5.39.0.26.14&rgn=div8

§84.20 Approval.

The construction of lights and shapes and the installation of lights on board the vessel must satisfy the Commandant, U.S. Coast Guard.

Do LED lights satisfy him? I have no idea.