Funnel points, what did John Hope mean?

It is not clear in my mind yet what I am looking for on contour maps that would be considered a funnel point. I understand bridges are one and gullies that are very narrow and near another type of structure. I guess I will look for two type of structures and two types of cover in the same area. I assume if I mange to catch a big fish in that area it will be at the funnel point in that area. I would love to see some pics of what a funnel point looks like that is not mentioned above. I understand the area should responsible a larger area becoming very narrow like a funnel. Any tips help would be appreciated. By the way is John Hope still giving lessons by chance? Thanks

Take a piece of paper and draw a series of v's on it, each larger than the previous one and consistently spaced apart. With the top of the v facing away from you you are looking at a point. The shallow water is on top and assuming 5 ft intervals, drops off equally by 5 feet on each line.

Now, turn the paper around so the tip of the v faces toward you. You now have a funnel point. The water in the middle is deeper than the outter edges and it funnels down to a point.

In his books he said if you fish these at sun up and sundown for an hour, within a week you would catch one over 6 lbs. (best I can recall without looking it up) EDIT...the 6 days was 3 days before and after a full moon

Look at this image. Just to the left of the number 1100 inside the blue marking, you have a point. Now move to the left and look at the point coming south, with the blue creek channel in the middle of it. That's a funnel point and fish move up and down it while actively feeding.

You have to look at the contour lines to see if the middle is shallow or deep to see if it's a point or a funnel. The number 1200 up top is right on top of another example

Shallow funnel

Deep funnel

Another funnel

So do you want to be fishing the edges of these like where they are dropping off?

Jeremy,

What I imagined was something (similar to your description) like the bridge across Ray Hubbard, or any lake for that matter. John wrote how bass don't like to utilize their swim bladder if they don't have to and will therefore cruise along at a certain depth to get from point A to point B. So I imagine a fish being north of the bridge wanting to get south of the bridge would have to be "funneled" through this area under the bridge and therefore you'd be making higher percentage casts concentrating on these bits of contour. You can imagine the same situation existing around an island, a main lake point, or any rise and fall in the structure of the lake. There are pathways just like cows make in a pasture that allow fish to move about at a given depth. Where those converge are your funnels.

I spoke to John a little over a year ago and he was still down in the Amistad / Falcon area. He was a very nice gentleman and invited me down to do some fishing with him because I had questions like yours about the things he had discovered.

Tight lines,

J

Great info.Ive never tried this I've always heard bridges called funnel points tho.

Doug Hannon, Bill Murphy, and John Hope's studies may have had different result and conclusions because they were studying bass in different environments. Doug Hannon's studies were primarily in shallow Florida rivers and river system lakes. Bill Murphy fished deep mountainous California reservoirs susceptible to large fluctuations in water level while John Hope tracked bass in Texas where we can have cold winters and extremely hot summers.

However, there are many similarities to their findings.
The primary commonality is that big bass are efficient. They don't roam or chase, they tend to stay in a small area year round. They achieve this by finding the best locations in a body of water: they seek well protected areas that provide the most stable temperature and food environment. In Florida, that would be a thick grassy weed bed in close proximity to a natural spring that provides a more constant temperature. In a lake surrounded by mountains, it would be a multidirectional drop off that the bass can move up and down depending on drought (water level). In Texas, with our sometimes extreme weather patterns, bass will seek an area with easy access to deeper and shallower water. In Texas, those areas are close to creek channels, which also provide excellent cover (timber and vegetation that grows along a creek)

Funnels and multidirectional drop offs are not exclusive of one another, and are often found in the same location

The topography is one aspect of it as it relates to fishing. It points to developments in the water.

Everyone has seen videos of kayakers running those fast river courses. The water can be moving along slowly, relatively speaking, the kayaker stages up on the high side of two boulders pinched together where he'll then run down between them. As the kayak shoots the small gap, it speeds up dramatically . . . with the water. A funnel.

The physics here is a broad flow of water being squeezed down and that old "conservation of angular momentum" thing we studied in school science classes.

You see the same effect if you walk downtown Fort Worth on a windy day. The wind speed increases dramatically around high rise buildings as the volume of air is pushed through less space.

Underwater "funnels" operate the same way, create different water speeds for two areas otherwise adjacent to each other. And, since the funnel has that topography, a cool primary reason it may be good to fish them is the old adage that it good to fish areas with depth changes.

So, you are a LMB, essentially a professional ambusher, and prefer to sit passively. You'd want to position yourself in relatively quite water, wait for dinner to come to you in the nearby current. I would suppose if you are a SMB, where they are known to be more actively positioned right in the currents, you'd situate yourself in the current itself facing into the flow and then attack what blows your way.

I'm the old man in the fishing canoe up on top trying to maintain a position, any position! Ha!

Brad

This is ABSOLUTELY awesome stuff. Thank You guys so much for all of this wealth of knowledge. Keep it coming.

You hear people in texas call them DRAINS a lot in texas too. Like in amistad especially. They say oh they were in drains with trees in 12 fow. Or somtimes they are "on the point" most of the time this means they are on the drop off that "defines" the funnel on the main lake side.coulincounty's pic is great

My most productive big fish funnels are some of the most obscure and insignificant looking places when you see them on a map, and many don't even show up on a map. A little wrinkle on a flat, hump or ridge can be the difference maker.

I do remember him mentioning that the funnels didn't have to be associated with the shoreline. You could have a transition point out in deeper water that was a pathway to a feeding ground in shallower water, not necessarily next to the shore.

In my conversations with John Hope many years ago he made a distinction between funnels and funnel points. What Dr Bean described is what I have understood as a funnel. Another example of his definition is a tank dam in 20 feet of water that's 5 or 6 feet on top. Even though a bass can swim over the top, he's not likely to. He will swim parallel and find a break in the dam, if it exists, and swim through that. This is why tank dams are so effective at holding fish and also why you should always fish both sides.

A lot of terms have gotten muddied over the years and none worse than cover and structure. In a conversation with him at a boat show he explained to imagine a football field sized flat. If I tell you to hang out there for an hour and I come back 2 hours later there is no telling where you mightbe. If I put a tree in the middle of this otherwise void flat, odds are very strong you will be sitting under the tree leaning up against it for support and using the tree for shade.

Cover is something added to the lake like bridge pilings, trees, boat dock supports, brush piles, hydrilla, . structure is a change in bottom depth like a point, ridge, tank dam, etc.

So when he talks about increasing your odds of finding a honey hole he gave the example of finding two types of cover on top of two types of structure. A point is structure, a creek channel swing on the side of the point is 2 types, add a tree and some grass and you have a 2 and 2 combination. Or a fence line and grass.... You get the idea.

At one point lots of guys tried to correct people as these terms were used wrong but most have given up and just accepted it as part of the misinformation the Internet is full of.

This right here is why I TFF!

Check out the book Spoonplugging by Buck Perry also. He explains the movements of the bass, season to season and how they relate to structure and cover in the lake. He has drawings in the book also to help you understand what he is talking about.

Man oh man am I glad I asked about this because it would have taken me years to figure this out. Hopefully someday I can pay it forward. I have the home study course by Buck Perry and it has changed my thinking completely and will be working on putting all this knowledge to work so it becomes second nature. Thanks again for all the knowledge.

Well in that case you are well on you way. The Buck Perry volumes 7A & 7B address mapping and interpretation. Read enough of the literature different authors will use different terminology. Funnels are sometimes called drains which is essentially where water erosion has formed the low spot and created the structure. I was really glad to see KD above make the distinction between cover and structure.

I have Hope's book as well and the swim bladder comment above makes perfect sense for unspooked fish remain at a depth at which they are comfortable. There have been many times I have graphed fish suspended out over a creek channel at the same depth as the breakline of a point or hump. If I recall correctly he also describes two types of fish. There are both chasers and ambushers and I have seen many times where fish are chasing shad down the lake.

Other examples of funnels would include where water runs off a high spot like a big point or underwater hump creating a drain or possible path that fish would follow to go shallow. Or where a creek bend (channel swing) forms an underwater point.

Good luck.

JT

The fish Hope tracked was caught by Dennis Canada and was the third largest fish ever caught in Texas at the time. (15.54lbs). Canada caught "Missy" 3 times, two with the aid of a transmitter. The fish was caught all three times in the same creek. In the spring, she would move up and partially spawn during the week and when Saturday morning came, she would move off her bed and suspend over the creek in 25 ft of water. She would stay there until Sunday afternoon and move up to the bed again when all the boat traffic subsided on the lake. I love it when the crowds leave on Sunday.

thanks again. One question:
In John's book what was he talking about when he mentioned little caney at fork and the road bed on the north end? Was he saying the road bed was a funnel? I assume this is what he meant plus I believe there is an old bridge/culvert there I.E. The road crosses the creek channel hence access to deep and shallow. Two structures and mentioned weeds growing and I assume there are stumps or trees there as well making it a 2x2 spot?
I just need to get out and make it happen. Hoping to join the DD club sooner than later but got to take care of family first. 2 with one due in June. Living the dream.

where can i get some good topography maps for free?

I remember reading this well. Very crucial info.
Played out for me over many years and many lakes.
Noise, boats traffic, Sonos, motors, etc are not good for big fish in general, especially at certain times.

All the funnel stuff mentioned I agree with. For me the funnel deal has worked best on clearer lakes while night fishing. Parallel casts and don't move much or make much noise. It takes lots of patience but the method does work.

I would love to see his tracking studies continued and expanded with new high tech equipment- I'm not sure what that would entail but what a wonderful study to expound on.

Also to add to Hope's tips for catching a big bass at Fork, he said that the magic depth at Fork was 12' due to the way the lake filled. The first three years the lake was open it was 12' below current pool if memory serves me correctly.

I fished it many times back then in the early '80's when the lake was new. When the lake finally filled and opened in 1983, it was like a jungle. All the trees held their leaves even though they turned brown, they didn't fall off for several years. The wasps nests were unbelievable too. The fish schooled in the creeks like you would not believe. It was bass Heaven all through the mid to late '80's.

Mark caught Ethel the day before Thanksgiving in 1986. I remember the day very well. I was in Dallas at work and it was very warm for November. I remember thinking how I wished I was fishing as I took off my jacket due to it being about 75 degrees and calm. Later that afternoon I got a call from a friend of mine telling me that the state record had been broken at Fork. We were all in disbelief due to the lake being so new. Technically it was only a three year old lake!

I later fished with the late Gayland Poe that owned and operated Val's Landing with his wife Val. Gayland had the net that netted Ethel on display in his store. Guess what depth Ethel was caught?? The magic 12 foot, right on the edge of a creek that dropped into 20 feet.

At the time, Mark Stevenson and Ronnie Byrd were the two top guides on Fork. They both told me to concentrate on the 12' depth were there were intersections of a creek, a road, a treeline, a hump, etc.

That information has served me well over the years. Hope this helps.

Ken

navionics web app

Great story and info. Thanks Ken!

Great thread. Thanks for even more info

I have not had a chance to get out and work on learning how to fish these. Anyone who read this that did know about it before test it and have success? Just wondering how much fishing time it took to find a good funnel on a decent size lake. Did you fish slow like john said or did you try to cover water as many funnels as possible?

Most funnels you can find on your map, I sat and fished across from mike iconaelli on a funnel Ive had much success. Was great knowing he had the same strategy as I did, I was just pleasure fishing tho, I caught a nice slot and he gave me thumbs up,..... All depends on what they are doing. I usually pull a Carolina rig and crank bait from one side to another. I usually start shallowest part of the funnel early morning then move out deeper as the day progresses, I found early morning shad are up shallow then move out deeper as the sun gets up. And the bass follow em, I've set and watched on my graph, on a point a school of bass 3-4 would go out and chase shad to the timber line and bass would sit at the timber line and pick off shad they would do this routinely.

These links are very informative. They have helped burn what's being discussed in my head. Not everything pertains to the lakes we fish here in Texas but there's a ton of information from all three clips that carry over no matter where you are fishing.

Contour Lines and The Triangle Theory

Locating and Catching Bass In Deep Water

Secrets to Big Fish

The webinar by Brandon Palaniuk was really good. You can sign up for the Navionics webinars on their Facebook page. There are usually really good seasonal topics.

To me this is a classic funnel point and a great spot:


Another spot:

Thanks again for the additional info and videos.

This is a great topic. This is the kind of stuff that intrigues me about trying to figure out, find and hopefully catch big fish. I have read Bill Murphy's and Dan Hannon's book a few times. I need to read this one from John Hope, it sounds like it relates more to the fish in Texas.

Finding these places is hard for me, when I look at contours on a map I get confused sometimes if the dark lines mean that the water is dropping off like a ledge or if it is rising like a hump.

I also have a Gen 1 Lowrance with SS and down imaging, but the Navionics chip is several years old, I wonder if I got a new chip if the mapping would look as good as the app on my Iphone? The details of these maps on the paid app is amazing, but it is hard to navigate a boat and hold that in your hand, I've already dropped one Iphone 6 in the lake this year....

Right on !!

with a new card, updated, the maps would look exactly like the ones on the app

Thanks! Do you recommend the Premium plus or the Platinum? I think the one I have now is a premium plus but like I said its an older one, maybe 5-7 years old I would guess

I can't wait to get out there and fish a few of these later this summer. Thanks again for all the info and help. If you ever see me on the water say hello, I am the guy that looks like he is from Minnesota with the deep V and full windshield but is a TX registered boat.

I think you have to buy the Platinum in order to get the Sonar Charts updates, but I could be wrong.

This post is an outstanding read.....you just don't get this kind of information out of BassMaster Magazine.....that's why I paid the membership fee to join TFF. Many, many good posts from knowledgeable fishermen on lots of fishing concepts

Could not have said it better

Great stuff men!!

I still remember fishing with Byrd and Stevenson... They taught me my love of jig fishing... Byrd was still running his old ranger and Stevenson was in his winner. What I learned with both of them was I needed only three baits to properly fish fork...
Black and blue jig
Pop R
I think the third was either a electric blue w/powder blue pinchers larew salt craw or plum.
Great times back from 87-90

Yes

I hope this clears things up

Great Stuff!! And also this whole post has been very informative. I ended up ordering those Buck Perry books as I love reading the older anglers research/ideas/stories etc.

Thanks!

I got to sit down with John a few months back. We spent several hours pouring over maps with him showing me specific examples of funnels. Talk about an awesome couple of hours! One of the things he repeatedly emphasized is that not all funnels are created equal. The narrower the funnel the better, a lot of folks look at a map and see what looks like a funnel but in actuality it could be quite wide. John told me the best funnels are no wider than the standard doorway entrance. Also, funnels that terminate into additional structure or cover are superior. The fish take funnels from locations they suspend at to locations they feed at. The funnel needs to terminate in a location that is likely to hold prey.

This a good example of a funnel like John was talking about in his book. I have fished it quite a bit and have had some decent success here. It's actually a pond dam that was cut when the lake was built.

This is probably the most interesting thread, I have ever read on this forum.

What are some other good reading/teaching materials?

Checking to see if I could pick some brains to see if funnel points would be in a lake like the one in the picture being its only 3-6' deep.

I like this area where it pinches in. That real narrow funnel of 5ft depth, especially the side of the funnel with the point reaching out towards it. It's the where the deepest part of the lake is narrowest and runs up against a point.





Also, here, where there is a pinched in area of 5ft depth. Looks to be a bridge or a dock on satellite view and a submerged road there also. Bridges are usually a decent natural funnel area.

Thank you for posting those key areas. I'll put some time in and see how it turns out.

Everyone fishes points. It is the ones that are not visible on shore that really pay off.

This cove is very protected and runs West. Coves that run West are the best and all the North cuts off of it will hold fish on their points. There are over 12 points in this cove to fish. The cove has over 20 ft. of water 1/3 of the way to the back. The shoreline is lined with super grass pods. I am amazed that this beautiful cut is lacking in wood. There is more wood on the front points than the back of the cove.

This is where the Funnel Points come into play. The points are very close together and are marked with WHITE Circled X’s. I would work all the way back to the Road and fish all the shoreline grass pods. Once near the back you find that this is a Chicken Foot cove. The main creek splits and moves into each finger of the cove. The area between these creek/ditches are inside bends and that is where you will find the spawning fish. The Funnel Points as labeled will be your staging ground for large Bass coming in and again going out.

Me and a buddy were on Fork when John Hope came by and sat for a couple of hours explaining in our exact location was a funnel point and how he knows there's a bass with a transmitter in a tree not 20' beside us. Showed us the crude equipment and we heard the beeps from the transmitter.
Needless to say we fished that section of water relentlessly for 3 years, spring, summer, fall. The total? numerous 7's 8's 9's 2 10's an 11.55 and a 13.71 on memorial day when Rainswood was closed.
What would you say if you knew I had a map showing well over a 200 hundred 10+ lb. fish that literally depicted the exact spot they were caught and clearly defined funnel points? I bet if I posted it, this forum thread would explode to thousands in just days.... Let me go scan it, i'll post it shortly..... Promise! Denny

That map wouldn’t do me any good, but it would be helpful to learn what to look for as far as areas to compare with on my lakes.

Here ya go Boys, Apologies to anyone that just had the Honey Hole Exposed!

This is just Mustang area, I have every cove and the entire lake...

I told you it was during the good years....

Do ya think you could find a blurrier pic?

Secret spots; but the shoreline is in the back ground somewhere. Ha..

and I still can’t see the contour lines.

Apologies, I couldn't get a cove by cove pic to focus... Deal With It. :-)

Now what ?

Looks like some areas hold some lunkers!

He missed the spot where I caught my 14.19 ,

Go ahead and post the GPS Coords. or update the map with a RED Dot..... Big Dog. LOL

N32*52.1069 & W95*37.2837 but don't tell anybody ok ?

This is a very informative post but I have a question or 3. Back a page or 2 it was talked about a fishes air bladder and a comfort zone and how a fish would swim around a take dam to get to the cut and go through instead of over. Here comes the question. Fish that are suspended for what ever reason when they head for a point or hump will they stay at that depth when they get there? Would this be the depth one would start fishing the point or hump that the fish in open water are suspended? Does this make since or am I an old confused county boy?

Great information in this post. I can certainly see this helping narrow down a large body of water to a more manageable task of finding active fish.

This is one example of noticing lots of suspended fish all over the lake. It is more noticeable during the Fall transition and migration of the Shad into the creeks with bass not far behind. This pattern has worked may times for me. We would run into as many coves that had major creeks in the back. As we made this run from one to the other, you would notice large schools of bait and suspended fish all around them. Not every cove would have this going on. It allowed us to pick the cove by seeing all the fish on the graph at a particular depth. Each cove that had fish moving to the back were all suspended at the same depth. If that was 10 ft., then that is the depth we would find fish feeding in those coves. We would pull up to a point about half way back and fish that depth as they would be connected to those points at the 10 ft. contour and feeding. I have done the same when they would be at 20 ft.. It seems that they pick their comfort zone for moving and following the bait fish; then just connect to the points at that depth to chase and feed.

Just so I understand, the funnel points are only related to a "creek or river bed" correct ??
And does it matter as the the depth of that creek or river bed ?
Like Belton Lake, it has the Leon river running thru it, but mostly at 70-90 feet of water.

Yes they can be related to the creeks and river. All funnel points are not created equal. Of course some are better than others. It is the route that the fish take from where they live or their comfort zone as I call it. This is usually on the most irregular feature in that area; like a steep ledge on the bank of that creek or river channel. They follow this route daily to feed and for big fish that is as short of a distance as possible from where they live and usually suspend next to that ledge or irregular feature off shore. A creek, ditch or the channel right next to that feature provides that pathway to the shallow feeding ground.

Contours are everything to a fish's route to the shallows from their deep water comfort zone. There comfort zone is where they feel the safest and is where they disappear to during the day when the bite stops in the shallows and on the mid-range areas. The funnel point must be as close to the feeding and spawning grounds as possible. So you start your search just off the best shallow and mid-range areas. I work the deep water contours at many different times during the day to determine their deep water feeding pattern; as they will feed deep to avoid making the trip to the shallows if that is possible for them. These Contours must be the best IRREGULAR ones on the lake. Big fish only move toward a shallow feeding ground, stopping on their ambush spots until they are full of whatever they are eating; then they quickly return to their comfort zone which means they never make it to the shallow water area or even the mid-range area. The key here that tells me something up shallow is I catch lots of smaller fish. This means that the larger fish are near by and must be found deep just off those smaller fish areas. The upside to this is you can use side scan and down scan a lot to help you see these spots; so you need the best depth finders as possible to do this. It is also a must to have a Humminbird to go with the new trolling motor that will follow a contour out and around all these Funnel Points without you having to do it with the conventional equipment. This is about a $5,000 investment.

So in the picture attached, we have a funnel point (red arrow) above the arrow the lake opens up.
Then there is an intersection of creek channels (blue arrow) and a ambush spot after the creek channel turns to the west (other blue arrow)
And the shallow cove areas (green arrow) is where their comfort zone is ??

Actually your two green arrows are the better funnel points.

Yep, every illustration of a funnel point that I saw John Hope make was like the two green arrows. He explained it as a path or road the fish use to get from point A to point B or that's the way I interpreted it. But then again, I thought when my wife told me to go I thought she meant fishing.

Without being able to zoom in on the contour lines to determine where the fish live you are just taking an educated guess. This is my guess where the Black Circles are. The two culverts will provide an irregular feature in deep water for a couple of spots to take a look at on down scan, to see if a group of bass is living there. The X's represent the area of Funnel Point that I would fish as they can move straight up to feed.

The Black Circles on the junction of the creek and the Inside Bends of the creek where it forks will provide another set-up for a deep water Comfort Zone. The other circles are minor zones that are at the mouth of the small cuts. If there are fish holding there they will be coming from the lip of the creek just off both sides of the cut so they can move right up on the points to feed.

Heck of a good read. Thanks guys for all the posts.

Yes Sir, and just like Donald explained it, that's where you'd start out on the front, and then follow those fish to shallow water for the spawn.

This is what TFF is all about. Great thread and it went for YEARS.

So much better than reading about the guy fishing Austin who complained about ramps, bass clubs, I can't get by boat and dog into the water, but when I did I caught more fish than everyone guy. LOL

I finally got me a copy of John's "Tracking Trophies" book. Good stuff.

Nice info guys! Thanks!

Agreed. Just 20 years late.

Awesome info!