Why does grass get killed in our lakes?

That's it... I'm tired of hearing how good lakes used to be with grass. For example Purtis Creek and many others. My question is why is the grass killed in the first place. This question has probably been asked before, but it really annoys me. I just read where they are gonna start "managing" the grass in one of my favorite lakes. Which just means their gonna kill it. Just had to ask.

Because, at times, the TPWD can have a very "special streak" in them.

The excuse will be to stop it from running rampant and clogging pipes.

Because the rich people who live on the lake but do not fish don't like it

This. Especially on cypress springs.

It messes with their boats and makes water skiing difficult, poor babies.

"Why isn't the water as clear and pretty as it used to be? "

Yes and when they kill our grass it's tough for us. I guarantee it's harder for us to fish without grass than it is for them to ski with grass.

You have to realize fishing isn't the reason the lake is there too.

The hydrilla got incredibly good at Conroe about 5 years ago and the fishing was amazing. They decided to spray it and put in carp. Said they were strategically spraying and releasing specific numbers of carp in specific areas so there would still be hydrilla for the fishermen and the fish. Within 2 months of the spraying, there was not a stitch of hydrilla left. It was so thick, they sprayed it several times to be sure they killed it all. Man, did the bass fishin suffer. Went back to being a brushpile lake. TPWD claimed that there were some numbers of hydrilla in the lake but it couldn't be found. Now they are claiming to be heroes for planting some pondweed and other shallow water grasses in one creek

Quality fishing brings more tax dollars to area lakes than anything else. TP&W people should be held accountable for what they do good or bad. We need to figure a way to hold them accountable. Kill grass = lose job. Managing grass is ok killing it all is unacceptable.

Simple answer. Lakes / Reservoirs are built as watersheds to provide water, you know, the stuff that all living life relies on.

Before you complain about grass, structure, et al,...........consider the fact that someone at least took the time to give a damn about stocking any fish,........much less Florida strains, introducing Sharelunker programs, yada yada, yada.

The infrastructure simply is not there to allow for lakes designed ONLY for fishermen. You don't have to like that response but you are better served to understand that is reality.

Heard it makes water taste funny in lakes they draw from. Also to much loss of "useable" water for recreation. Others I think they just kill it for fun or have to many carp and no place to put them. Your guess is as good as mine.

It all started at Lake Conroe in the late 70's & early 80's with the white amur stocked there.
Also known as "lawn mowers with fins". Completely ruined that lake for a bass & bluegills all for the benefits of lake property owners to use that lake for recreation & being so close to a huge city Houston. Why they would do it in reservoirs in rural areas is beyond me. What was worse was that TPWD would stock carp in Conroe that were not able to reproduce but eat any aqautic vegetation, native or non native. I am still surprised after all these years that even BASS was supportive of this tactic. My .02

Many lakes are FLOOD CONTROL Lakes. (Sam Rayburn for example) And the controlling authority are primarily concerned about the function of the lake for those purposes. If it's for Hydroelectric or Flood Control then RECREATIONAL use is of minimum consideration. If the Grass is causing problems then their solution is to take care of the problem. If the local Home Owners are the "Controlling Entity" then they like their lakes clean so they can ski and swim. As fishermen we are just the "Black Sheep" of the family!

Seems kind of silly that so much money is spent on stocking programs then they spend more money to kill the grass which hurts water quality and habitat that could actually allow the fish to survive. I'm sure there's a healthy balance that could be found but it's government so soup sandwiches will always be the meal of the day.

First, there are no kinds of bass that eat grass. In fact, little of what a bass eats, eats grass. Most lakes with a lot of aquatic weeds will have a lower standing crop of fish overall, and a much lower standing crop of bass than lakes that have good aquablooms, which are the base of the food web ending on top with the bass.

Some aquatic weeds are good structure and habitat, too many is detrimental to both the fishery as well as other uses a reservoir may have.

Aquatic weeds DO NOT PROVIDE OXYGEN 24 hours a day. Green plants consume oxygen at night. Anybody that has had a lake full of weeds in August, knows this, as the lake will suffer an oxygen depletion resulting in a total kill in some cases. In large reservoirs this can be localized to areas where weeds are thick and the fish are not able to easily leave the area.

So, to answer the question...

Grass gets killed in lakes to make the lake more useable by all parties concerned, and sometimes as part of the overall fishery management program.

Some species of aquatic weeds are banned, this includes hydrilla, elodea, hyacinth, water lettuce, salvinia, among others. This because they are far more harmful than any good that may come from them as fish habitat.

That was the whole deal with Conroe...now you can't find any grass whatsoever in it.

Great interpretation fishbreeder, if only they could figure out something to do about that Giant Salvania in Caddo

Bob Sandlin has changed a lot over the last 4-5 years. There used to be a lot of hydrilla and the water was very clear. Now we have a lot of alligator weed and the lake is not nearly as clear. I've heard that some permits were issued to spray the hydrilla a few years back, but I haven't confirmed if that actually happened.

Cypress Springs used to be a nice clear light tea colored water when the grass was in it. The grass actually filters the water and increases the aquatic habitat. Once they killed it out so the homeowners could swim and ski.. the lake stays a clear (non-traffic) to muddy (weekend traffic) color. The fishing has dropped off drastically, and TPWD will not stock fish in the lake due to the non-habitat for survival rates.

^^^this^^^
Many of my favorite lakes and waterways have been completely chocked out by water weeds.

this is what it all equates to... On Cypress Springs, there were some fancy Dallas peeps that came out and jumped onto the water control board for Franklin County Water District.. he then helped his son buy the Tall Tree Marina in hopes of "yuppie-fying" it... (moved out all the RV's, covered up the boat ramp, and started serving over-priced food in the same marina that was once awesome)... They gained enough followers from rubbing elbows in the local HOA's that they were able to pass the stocking of grass carp, and "controlled" spraying of each homeowner (no telling who monitors a homeowner mixing chemicals to spray in the water).... well this went on, and probably still goes on...
but they have no grass to contend with, and since they dont fish-- it doesnt bother them.

Some people that live on the lake think they own the lake. They don't particularly care for the fishing, so they petition to kill the grass. As an added benefit, they get rid of a lot of the bass fishermen who run all over the lake and disturb their surroundings.

I remember as a youngster back in the day when Conroe had all the hydrilla. It was a heck of a lake. The carp killed it. So, TPWD just repeats the process. Some fishing show I watched did a segment on Conroe about the introduction of "native grass". Yeah, it was one small patch that didn't even extend into the water with a FENCE around it so the carp wouldn't eat it. Your tax dollars at work.

I understand of corse that the lake wasn't made for fishing, but I didn't know it had a big effect on the use of the reservoirs. After reading the responses I guess I see it from both sides.

Knowledge is power. Just like everything in life, you HAVE TO look at both sides of the issue. Once you do, understanding is much easier.

Just an example. . .dock owners get real tired of seeing damage and trash from people fishing with no consideration. They don't think about the 99 guys that fish their dock respectfully, they see the damage the 1 bad apple causes. And why wouldn't they if it's costing them money. There's two sides to every story, and often times both are partially wrong and right.

Well with this all said...thanks for the responses. I was not bashing tpw or any other orginization, I just wanted to know why. I just get tired of hearing about how the lake is long past its hay day, and amazing it used to be and how bad it is now.

I think like some have said we need to find a program that manages the grass, kinda best of both worlds.

WHAT!!! Nahhhhhh....say it ain't so!
I have heard all my life from 'fishermen', that's the reason we have lakes!

The people with homes on the lake that don't fish don't like the grass so they complain and TPWD listens and they kill it it shouldn't choke out a lake but a happy medium . Jut my opinion.

As I have stated before, the Hydrilla on MOST lakes does not need to be sprayed or introduced with Grass Carp. Fluctuating lake levels, cold winters, and Coots keep it in check. Hydrilla is very beneficial to MOST of our lakes. It gives our fish fry a place to hide, keeps our waters clean, and prevents erosion. It is sad to see our lakes eroding away in areas that used to be beautiful. It doesn't make sense to spray chemicals in our lakes that provide drinking water. Also, it doesn't make sense to introduce a non-native species(grass carp) to eliminate a non-native grass. And besides, we ALL know they eat just about every kind of vegetation they can. Big waste of money, and then we spend more money trying to get grass to grow again. Still amazes me that they cannot find more important things to spend money on.

A cold winter wiped out the grass several years ago on Fork. Fluctuating water, coots...not always sabotage.

Reservoirs are themselves "non native." Hydrilla is key to outstanding fishing. Kill the grass and you are going to hurt the fishing.

Every year TP&W gets slammed because the grass died in some lakes. But they are innocent, TP&W does not own lakes, river authorities and the Corps do. Blame where blame belongs.

Hydrilla = bass and big bass.

Show me a lake with decent hydrilla and has bad fishing overall??

Maybe they exist but over the years it's pretty easy to see a trend. Lakes have good hydrilla and they are very good lakes usually. Kill the hydrilla and fishing and big bass numbers decline.

It can be a nuesance if it gets too bad, but by far it's helped all of the lakes I've ever seen that had it.

Control would be the key, but it seems that never happens it just gets irradicated

What was the purpose for the removal of almost all the hydrilla and now the reeds at Fayette??

It's not from homeowners complaining??

That lake is no where near the lake it was in the 80's and very early 90's.

LOL,I live on Lake of the Ozarks... You guys have NO clue as to how the "money" effects a lake... You just have to learn to adapt and fish the conditions in front of you.... I grew up on Lake of the Ozarks and have watched it change 100R% for different species. Used to be you could catch white bass with a "popper and fly" now you fish deeper ( some say the shad stay deeper because of boat traffic) either way, if you are a fisherman you adapt and catch fish. Yes the fishing is tougher on the lake today because of pressure but I don't think it is because of "poor water quality" or lack of grass.... And I can tell you, I have never seen Hydrilla patches on the lake....

I don't think you will find many fisherman who will say any of our major reservoirs are better off without hydrilla or milfoil. All invasives are not the same. Anyone who mentions hydrilla and salvinia in the same breath has not had any experience with either. Two very different weeds.
I have heard the biological arguments before that a lake is healthier without invasive "hydrilla". In over 30 years my personal experience on anout 10 east texas reservoirs tells me that I catch more and larger bass when it is present. More and larger crappie as well. Just as many catfish and more bluegill. Heck I even kill more ducks in the winter time when there is lots if hydrilla.

Once hydrilla is introduced it can never be fully killed. It will come back eventually.

LCRA says they did not spray the hydrilla or the reeds other than at the launch ramps. That was at fishermen's request. And no one has spoken up claiming to have witnessed spraying. Fayette has something else wrong with it. Crappie gone, catfish almost gone, neither have spawned in years. Lake has been managed as a trophy lake since it opened, and the lake record bass is 12+. It opened about the same time as Fork, and we all know what Fork has produced. Bass fishing has fallen off also. It's still good, but as you said not as good as it once was. There is something severly out of balance at Fayette.

I was talking to Brian Hughes a few nights ago and Purtis Creek came up. Brian told me the grass carp that were introduced there a few years ago have eliminated all the hydrilla and even the pads. What was once a very clear lake is now a murky lake.

I'm no biologist, but hydrilla sure does seem to have the ability to "filter" a lake and make it clear.

I'd venture to guess that the property tax collected in one year, from homeowners on Lake Conroe, is more than good fishing could generate in 10 years for the economy there. It's sucks that TPWD seems to spin it that it's not about the money or political pressure.

Well the catfish might have something to do with a few of the guides that take a couple hundred of them out a week,
As far as the hydrilla I'm not buying that it "naturally" died off to what it is now from what it used to be.

Guides have nothing to do with the decline of catfish in Fayette. A couple of hundred a week by the guides won't touch the thousands spawned by adult catfish. The catfish are not spawning for some reason. There haven't been any smaller catfish caught in TP&W net samples in over six years. Some claim it's the bass eating the spawn. I doubt it, the bass couldn't catch every one of the 10,000 an adult female catfish lays. No, there is something in the ground or something in the water after it goes thru the plant. Fairfield suffered the same thing with the crappie. For six years we caught 2 pound crappie at Fairfield, and never any small ones. The biologists doing creel samples said they weren't spawning for some reason. Same at Fayette.
But with the lake privately owned, it's doubtful any money will be set aside to find out what the problem is as long as the water will cool the plant.

So it's ok for cat fisherman to pull out hundreds every week over a course of many years but bass fisherman should throw everything back to keep from hurting populations.

Just checking.

Now I don't know about spawn rates etc but I do know some small fish have been caught recetly at Fayette so somekind of spawn must have happened at some point. Maybe it was highly reduced I don't know.

Very interesting though it would be sad if that lake went the way of Fairfield.

People always talk about the hydrilla, but anyone remember this [censored]? Was kind of a scary time, I felt like we had some giant salvania type of apocolypse taking over the lake. Thank god for the winter of 2009/2010.

Birch Creek late 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcO3l7OOcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7WGbwCiMZ0

First, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE BASS MANAGEMENT AT FAYETTE! It ain't working.
Actually, if bass fishermen took their five fish limit of unders, which btw are perfect for eating, the bass would be much better off also. In this case, catch and release works too good.
In the last survey TP&W did, they did not net any small catfish, nor did they shock any small catfish. That pretty well says it all. They ain't reproducing.
TP&W stocked black and white crappie in the lake before it opened and they did well for a few years. In the last 20 years I have not heard of a single crappie being caught, by fishermen or TP&W. That says a lot too.
Something needs to be done at Fayette, I don't know what, but I'm sure a soultion could be found if LCRA would fund a study. But then I remember, LCRA is not in the fish business.

This is true but the reason the grass was eradicated on Lake Conroe was simply because the Lake Conroe Home Owners Association didn't want it on "their" lake. There is no power plant on Conroe to use the "clogging the pipes" excuse.

Here is the latest TPWD report for Fayette County.

Enjoy.


http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/lake_survey/pwd_rp_t3200_1292_2007.pdf

Thanks for posting. I have been looking for this for various lakes.

2007. Okay........

I heard a presentation from these morons when they were discussing how to "treat" (code word for absolutely eradicate) the grass on Lake Tyler. Richard Ott pointed out that he was bringing in the "experienced" guys who had worked on Conroe. My first thought was "Wow, they did such a fantastic job with that fishery, so what could possibly go wrong?"

We also heard the heartwarming story about how they were going to plant little clumps of "native grasses" at key points around the lake. Apparently we were all supposed to be giddy in anticipation over that.

you ever pull on a lake and it looks like its been hit with napalm?

up here in MN often I pull onto a lake and its posted with signs saying its been sprayed with aquatic herbicides. Usually after an application the mats are all yellow or yellow/orangish and it knocks the fishing off quickly, might as well head to the next lake. Also I've seen it change the ecosystem to drasticly like these previous examples. The weeds don't come back for a long time if ever, I'm still waiting on some lakes to come back.

Maybe the fishing members of the lake associations should be retaining samples of treated water? Maybe whoever gets the contract for treating a public water should be responsible for some testing that would prove the chemical has been applied at the proper rate. Probably $200 would cover a test for a single known herbicide. Maybe State Association environmental should follow up on this and follow up on the 2014 pesticide applications which would have a State permits. Its like a building permit these treatments have to be permitted, so its public knowledge.

This is a balance between lake managers, for a lot of recreational users and shoreline owners there should not be one single weed in the lake in case their daughter/granddaughter might touch one and pitch a fit. These folks could care less if there's a fish in the lake!

And planting pond weed? if its that leafy pondweed the stuff looks great but I have never ever caught a decent fish out of it.

This is a never ending debate and has been since TPWD destroyed Conroe (IMO) by putting carp in it. It was a Great Lake then and never has been since. Hopefully, Brett will chime in as he is an aquabiologist.

Because the purpose of our reservoirs is to store water not grow plants. Too much vegetation increases the rate of water transpiration and their decay increases the amount of aerobic bacteria. Both of those are no bueno when you are trying to store useable water. No one will be complaining about poor fishing when you have no clean water to drink or irrigate with. No food and no water means famine and famine means massive human die offs. And that is why they kill the vegetation (grass as you put it) in our lakes, especially the invasive species. Priorities, priorities, priorities.

Lakes like Pines, Sandlin, Cypress, Rayburn, Nacogdoches, Tyler, and Jacksonville used to be full of hydrilla. They also were and are water supply lakes. Can someone cite evidence of any of the populations they serve running out of water because the grass caused a shortage? I'll hang up and listen.

All you need to do is read up on Conroe, the management of that lake has been a cluster F. Now they're trying to remove the carp they put in and bring back the vegetation they killed by building a nursery. Without vegetation water quality goes down, erosion and sediment go up, sure if the lake is completely consumed with the stuff it's no good but total eradication is not the answer and huge amounts of money have been wasted doing just that, $50-$100/acre to spray if I recall.

There was a fishing show I was watching a couple of weeks ago and one segment of it was about TPWD reintroducing native grasses. While the talking head was going on about how great it was, the camera was showing pictures of grass with fencing around it (almost on shore) to keep the carp from eating it. Good work.

That's great.

I wasn't trying to start an argument with this...I just mad and wondered why. My understanding was that like what some people said the grass makes the water cleaner. It seemed to me grass meant win for the fishing and win for water resources as long as it was managed. Maybe, maybe not.

Seems like having hydrilla in the water to keep in clean would be better for the water. Spraying poisons in the water to kill it can't be good for our water. Also, back when when tons of hydrilla were on Fork there was hardly any erosion. Now go out on a windy day and the points and banks are eroding away.

Usually for all the wrong reasons!

Not sure why you call them weeds?
They don't provide as much oxygen at night, but they do provide Oxygen 24/7. Here is a basic review of the different photosynthesis processes.
The general equation for photosynthesis is:
2n CO2 + 2n DH2 + photons -> 2(CH2O)n + 2n DO
Carbon dioxide + electron donor + light energy ->carbohydrate + oxidized electron donor
In oxygenic photosynthesis water is the electron donor and, since its hydrolysis releases oxygen, the equation for this process is:
2n CO2 + 4n H2O + photons -> 2(CH2O)n + 2n O2 + 2n H2O
carbon dioxide + water + light energy ->carbohydrate + oxygen + water
Often 2n water molecules are cancelled on both sides, yielding:
2n CO2 + 2n H2O + photons -> 2(CH2O)n + 2n O2
carbon dioxide + water + light energy -> carbohydrate + oxygen
The main reason you get low oxygen levels in August is Evaporation and the subsequent Turn Over effect.

Grass gets in the dumb jet ski ,so land owners complain to the PROPER authorities ,I've been told that on lake cypress anyways.

Because it's no fun to drive your jet ski or wakeboard/ski boat out in the deeper water where there's no grass. No, you have to be able to run it up in the backs of the coves and along the banks where the grass...and fishermen...are.

I was fishing Jacksonville one day 15 or so years ago. I finally found one little cove that had hydrilla in it and immediately caught a few bass. As I got near a boat dock toward the back half there was a lady who looked like she was in her mid to late 80s, maybe 90, out on her dock. She asked me if I had caught anything and I told her I hadn't until I got into her cove where there was some grass. She said, "Yeah, I'm going to call the city and complain about this hydrilla. They were supposed to have killed it all the last time. How can you swim with that sutff in here?"

I could only wonder to myself when the last time was that she actually swam.

One TPWD biologist I spoke with a few weeks ago was concerned about the dead reeds at Fayette too. He doesn't think LCRA treated it to eradicate it. There was even some discussion to gather samples of root balls to test for some type of disease. I don't know if they will. That wasn't clear. LCRA needs to get a permit from TPWD to do any control. The biologist said no permit was filed that he knew of.

I hope I understood what he told me. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone. He and I are in the same bass club so he too wants the fishing to be good for personal reasons!

I don't know this but just throwing this out. Is it possible for some vegetation to have natural up and down years? I know such cycles occur in the animal kingdom. (Not including man made controls such as treating, or adding grass carp.)

Purtis was a fantastic fishing lake for big bass before the grass carp. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me the main purpose for Purtis is fishing and duck hunting. I don't get it!

Also thought it was suspicious the year the grass died on Fork, as I remember, was the year it was hit with LMBV. I might be remembering wrong but kill all the weeds in a pond all at once and watch the fish float to the top!

There is something wrong at Fayette, and I wish LCRA or TP&W would initiate a study to find out what. Crappie were stocked in Fayette, yet none have been caught in the last 25 years, channel catfish haven't had a successful spawn for a long time, the average fish is now about 9 pounds with NO small fish caught by fishermen or TP&W sampling, blue catfish were stocked and there hasn't been a blue caught in years, not even by the best guides, or TP&W.. Now the grass and reeds have disappeared. Something just ain't right.