Line "curling" on my flipping rig

Ok.....I remember this kinda being covered once, but I can't find it.

Here's my issue.

I get some SEVERE kinking/curling on my flipping setup after about a day's use....maybe 200 flips and 20 or so catches. When I set the hook, I get this plink plink plink pliiiinnnkkkkk....kinda sound. When I get this sound, it's time to cut off about 10-12 YARDS of line. It goes away for a short time....then it's back.


I am having the same issue, despite trying 3 different rods. I have tried a H2O 7'3" Ethos HD(Fuji micro guides ), a 7"3" Falcon Cara ST (Fuji micro guides), and a Diawa Steez 7'2" with TiSic "macro" guides. The reels have been a Steez 103HL 7.9/1 and a Lews Team Lews 7.5/1. Line is always fluorocarbon 20lb. Sometimes InvisX and sometimes Red Label.

Is this something with the hookset? Am I abusing the line? I know it isn't the rod or reel. And it doesn't happen in my other 30 some odd combos. Only the ones I use for Biffle Bugs.

When flipping, I REALLY hookset fast and hard. Am I burning the line?

What are y'alls thoughts?

Biffle bugs causing line twist? Never use them so this is an honest question.

Seaguar InvizX has a lot of memory. I had the same issue with the InvizX. Try sunline shooter Power special.

Sounds normal

Braid man line, swivel, then flouro leader

Find a place to hook you hook onto at the front of the boat (Trolling motor bracket?). Go to the back of the boat and stretch your line tight. If you can rig up a swivel to hook to this will also help with line twist. Do this every hour or so and I bet it will help.

Maybe a wider spool reel like the Lews BB1 Pro would help also.

Whoa!!! Let’s back up... 200 flips and 20 catches and you think you have a problem?

It's an easy lake. What can I say.


To add..... this isn't a line memory problem. I can have the same issue with one day old line. Line conditioner doesn't help. It isn't twisted, so a swivel isn't gonna help. The line is kinked and curled. With no pattern to it. Maybe a jagged kink and a few inches down a curl and an "s" and a very tight curl. It's weird.

Maybe it's from dragging over rocks and logs. Kinda how you curl ribbon for a gift wrap. It's why I think the line is burning. Going from slack line to full stretch. It makes a pop like a whip sometimes.

not the way I rig them.....they swim and fall very straight.

Try Sunline FC sniper flouro

Check your guides, you may have cracked or chipped ceramic in one of them.

I just want to hear more about this easy lake.

I'm pretty sure hes talking about Lake Clark. I was there Sunday morning.

Only input I have, and could be nowhere near right cuz I've never used those reels. But when I used to run chronarch 50mgs I had the same issue. I could put new flouro on and within a short time it was coily and kinked bad. I dunno though. Not really a common denominator here since your using 2 different reels and 2 different rods. Only terminal tackle like line and bait.

Maybe you got ahold of some of that counterfeit line

When you set the hook hard on a fish or snag the tip of the rod can put a "kink" or "curl" in your line. Hook sets when you have different lengths of line out can cause several "kinks" up and down your line.

Yep!

I don't think it is this. If you watch a hook set video on YouTube in slow motion, note that the tips of most modern rods are soft enough that there is never any sort of 90 degree angle bend at the tip that would affect the line. If so, we'd be out of business very fast . . . with our lines and, worse, broken rod tips.

For anyone who might not know how to slow down a YouTube video, start up a video, then hold the shift key down and then tap the "<" key once, twice, or three times to make it slower, even slower, slowest. ">" three times will put you back to normal speed. Or ">" three times to speed it up. Anyway, take this attached video, I just picked one at random, and slow it all the way down and see how the tip of a rod behaves with violent hook sets. Any angled force dissipates immediately and travels (rolls) down to the rod's lift point.

hook sets and rod tips

Steez knows his equipment, eliminates this by mentioning two or more set-ups causing the issue. Not sure about the specific plastic mentioned.

Steez, if you mean you are truly flipping, short distance stuff, my best guess is it is simply the force on the line all the way back up to your reel and no more than a turn or two into the spool, that after the length of time you are noticing the issue, your fluoro has been thoroughly stretched (remember elasticity and plasticity are two different properties) and that the little bit of line that is normally out "flipping" has deformed along its whole "short" length. So cutting 10 or 12 yards off gets you back to relatively fresh line.

Since fluoro never "un-stretches" and is more plastic-like than elastic, you have really gotten your money out of it with the cost being 12 yds of line per 20 fish. That's a bargain!

Brad

Brad, I agree about the rod tip, and I misread guru's "snag" as a limb under water your line is over when you flip. Setting hard on a fish with your line in a 90 around a non giving snag, limb, pole, whatever will deform that line, after 20 fish I could see that line being stretched, kinked and bent. I'm also about to believe that snelling with fluoro weakens the line at the hook eye due to the (2) 45 degree bends it's in, and the eventual near 90 degree bend it gets in on hook set. I quit snelling fluoro and my break off on hook sets stopped. 30 lb Seaguar flouro material by the way. Now if I can get a knot that will not slip and slide around the hook eye under pressure I may have my problem fixed. I've got my butt handed to me about 5 times the last 3 trips out on some giants in bushes. Went straight braid last Sunday and the line got buried in the wood and I watched a big one roll around a couple feet under and come off, nothing I could do.

This

I don't have those issues on Clark. Clark is a grass lake. I don't flip there. I always use braid in that lake.

The easy lake is Waxahachie. I can catch 20 off the dam in a couple hours. Then flipping shallow bushes in the evening. The water pipes are good for a fish in every three or four poles.

.....only thing about Waxahachie? Most are small.

I think it is the line bending on the guide top on sets. I thought I was imagining things. It gets bad enough that I can hear it when it goes through the guides. Sounds horrible. Almost like I have knots all along the line. Then I cut out a good chunk, and go again.

Thanks guys.

A buddy of mine had this exact issue. He spent weeks trying to figure it out. I think he wound up having to have the guides changed and the issue went away. Sadly he had bought a whole bunch of a custom rods from a company in Texas so the whole thing was a big ordeal. I'll ping him and see if he can't chime in here.

Fluoro is your problem, use big game mono for flipping.

Ding, ding, ding!

Could try cleaning/waxing that last eyelet, but braid mainline is the only cure.

Could be caused by the line digging into the spool on hooksets. Or as mentioned a bad guide.

This must be why my line is perfectly straight with no kinks... no hooksets! Lol

I ran into this issue while pitching baits with a new rod, and in my mind, I’m pretty sure the smaller guides in use today are bending the line sharper on each pitch, kinda like repeatedly bending wire, to the point the line breaks down. I never had this issue with older style guides, and I pitched a ton more back in the day. I changed the tip guide out to a slightly larger guide, and the issue went away. Who knows if this is actually the case, but it eliminated the issue. Sometimes old school is better.

Sounds like to me that that your line is laying looser on the spool. When you flip and then reel back in, it may not be laying as tight as it could be. So when you set the hook, the line digs down in to itself? I have the same thing happen to me from time to time. After a pitching for a while, I'll make a long cast out and hold the line like your spooling it fresh and reel it back nice and tight. Might try that and see if it helps.

Stretch out about 50 yards and spray with KVD

I do this exact same thing. As soon as I notice the line not tight or uniformed on the reel, I make a long cast to correct it. It seems to help with the flipping feeling smoother as well.

Might want to loosen the drag a little. It should give just a little on your hook sets instead of digging in the spool. I usually flip with braid and crank my drag tight but with flouro I'll loosen it up a little. I've seen a lot of flouro get the chaulky look after repeated use. Use some line conditioner or just get some fresh line. Flouro is great for sensitivity and low stretch but it does require some maintenance.

Check to see if you are missing rod tip.

I have never had that problem with sunline shooter. Been on some pretty flippin bites.

Steez, if I know I'm going to be flipping the day before I go, I will tie my line off to the boat and walk off 100 yards or so and reel it all back in with good tension. Seems to help and I usually do it twice and I see the line start to spool up nicer and the memory is gone the next day.

Once again ....Fluoro is your problem, use big game mono for flipping.

Thanks for of all the suggestions and wisdom guys. I'm gonna write this off as "part of it" for the ways I'm fishing and micro guides. I think I'll spool up with less expensive Red Label though.

I know the guides are meticulously clean and in good shape. I clean the rods at least once a month. ....and yep, the expensive ones actually get waxed. Lol. I know.....kinda weird. But, for the last 8 years, I have to buy my stuff at retail. So I take better care of stuff now.

I do think it's a combo of the guides being so small and loose line in the spool from repetitive short flips. When I set the hook, I definitely can understand the stress applied to the line as it's overlapping on the spool.

I guess I should watch it closer too.....since the line is probably getting weak when it's kinked up.


Thanks for all the replies.

Now that you point that out I think your right. I have to Kistlers that I use to flip pitch with. Both have micro guides and I have this same issue. I don't have this problem with my power tackle flipping rods like the 104 and 104.5

I use tatsu, 20 and 25 have more memory for sure than lower weights, but much much much less than invisx or abrazx... What your describing to me is a LINE issue for sure.

I pretty much wont attempt to use them with less than 3/8, I find that some kvd line conditioner makes a big difference.

I basically spray my spool when I grab a rod with floro and get to fishing... Ive found its not good to spray it at the end of the day and let it sit, it seems to react down in my spool, so thats why I use it when I grab the rod and some thru the day.

Hey Steez,

Are you pegging your weight? If so, how?

Working close in, such as flipping and pitching Big Game makes more sense than fluorocarbon. The sensitivity gained in pretty much a misnomer at close distance and the stretch can be a lifesaver at close ranges too. I refuse to have any fluoro in any application that requires it to be wrapped on a spool. I will occasionally use it as a leader but that is seldom. I have yet to be outfished by anyone using fluoro vs my mono. My belief is that fluorocarbon is one of the biggest marketing scams I've seen in the fishing industry.

I use the jumbo "peg-it". The kind that slides through the weight. Always always always have it pegged....very tight. The weight absolutely never slides.

Eh....I like the sinking of the line vs mono

They both stretch. Trust me. Almost the same %.

Is there any way you can downsize to 15# test and see if that helps or do you thing you would have too many break off's? For me 20# Invizx seems to curl a lot worse than 15. Invizx also has 17# but it is only slightly smaller in diameter than the 20 so that may not help out much there.

Do you have a rod you can test out that doesn't have micro guides?

Im just throwing out suggestions because I haven't had an issue like you described but none of the rods I use for pitching have micro guides.

I recently used some mono and when I set the hook I damn near need to jump out of the boat...lots of stretch... that said.

Ive fished straight braid in all applications including clear clear water and never been out fished by anyone with floro on my boat, but Ive only got to test that about 8 times maybe there is a day that it matters but I havent ever seen it yet.

I don't believe that it makes a big difference. But, that said, I tourney fish 75% of the time and I don't take any chances. Only braid in grass....fluorocarbon on EVERYTHING else. And usually 20lb and up. I've lost fish at critical times using smaller lb test. So minimum is 20. Only exception is when I have to fairy fish. Then is 20lb braid and a 6-10lb leader.

Four pages in I'm not sure I'm going to figure out anything that hasn't been said but do you set the hook one really slack line? That and a heavy rod I could see 'shocking'the line for lack of a better word and putting a behind in it. I fish seguar almost exclusively and have never had an issue. Just chuck one out in the middle of the lake every now and again to get it wound right.

I'm thinking back to a Comodero trip and I had some Denny Brauer 30 lb Flippin' Line on (fluoro) and one of the rubber nails in the weight and had this same issue. The line was fairly fresh so I don't think it was a line memory issue as much as it was my bait was spinning because of my off center weight and bait that was causing twist.

It looks like you've already thought this aspect through.

I hate the fact that we really don't know for sure why this sometimes happens.

Go fish an event on Hartwell or parts of Champlain where the visibility is 20+ ft and you'll change your tune really quickly.

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about.

A little stretch is good at close quarters, specially when you have a fish wrapped around a dock pier and your trying to pull him back around it. Also, a lot of the times when you set the hook on a fish under a dock, you just don't know if your going to get a solid, no slack involved hook set or a softer hook set with a little slack in the line due to the position of the fish at the time you swing the rod. I set the hook hard as you should and if you're using fluoro and it's a situation where you have absolutely no slack when you swing for the fence, you have a good chance of breaking that line at the knot. Fluoro is terrible for flipping docks, I tried to make myself use it more than once, it's got tons of memory, backlashes much easier, is brittle and even worse in cold temps and if you have a fish hung on structure he will get off more times than not.

So why don't you see more mono on the Tour? Why is it mainly used in a topwater application?

I don't worry about what the "tour" uses or want's us to buy. How do you know they actually use it flipping docks? I could see myself being sponsored by a Fluoro manufacturer, push the product but use mono for my dock flipping set up. Fluoro has it's place but I'm not flipping with it.

The Elites use only the best fluoro, have learned how to work with it optimally, have multiple rods rigged in case one gets even 5% off the way they want it, and respool every day. Just what I've seen...and they will use whatever line or product they feel will help them most....

There are quite a few guys on here that fish with them as Co's and you end of befriending half of them and learning why they do it the way they do.

I don't disagree with you, btw. Fluoro is a PITA when flipping docks and what I don't believe matters is that it sinks the minute you get a terminal weight tied on.

I find that I'd rather not tolerate that much stretch (resin mono) but to each their own.

Check this thread out

https://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/152445-line-stretch-test-18-typesbrands/

I'm sure that's a great discussion but things are crazy at work so I won't have time to read it. A guy in his garage doing those experiments isn't going to withstand the scrutiny of testing validity and reliability under the scientific method. But I digress......

What the pros figured out long ago that the gentleman above seems to have been alluded by is that resin mono (nylon) has significant "low end stretch". That's referring to the force required to get the line to begin to deform. Fluorocarbon monofilament may deform more under his experimental conditions but if we're honest, that isn't the force replicated by setting the hook at the length of your cast.

There's far more credible research to be looked at.

Tackle tour has also done a series of tests concerning knot strength (Biggie for me)abrasion resistance, stretch, etc. Seems that the places most would have you believe that fluoro is superior, it struggles to match a good co-polymer. We will not even mention handling characteristics. I can't abide the poor handling and knot strength most of all. As to visibility, I fish in either Texas or Mexico 99.99% of the time and the water clarity and perceived invisibility of fluoro can't begin to make up for it's other poor traits. I lump fluoro along with Micro guides and split grips on rods, just another flavor of the month brought to you by the marketing gurus from the tackle manufacturers. Been doing this bass fishing thing pretty hard core for over 50 years and still find myself amused at the "Game Changers" that we as fishermen have been prodded to spend out hard earned dollars on.

I'm of the same mindset, I'm betting with $100,000 on the line, the elites are going to use the best line they can for the situation.

I wonder what the difference in stretch is in the water, that's what matters to me. These stretch tests while dry are much different in the water, and so is the sensitivity. Everyone has their preferences and confidence is everything. I need the sensitivity and low stretch that fluoro provides for most of my fishing.

http://www.flyfishamerica.com/content/fluorocarbon-vs-nylon


Water Absorption

Nylon monofilament is a lot like spaghetti—it absorbs water in copious quantities. Trying to pull a piece of dry spaghetti apart end to end is tough, but as soon as it gets cooked (i.e., it has absorbed a bunch of water) it pulls apart with ease. That’s an extreme example, but you get the picture.

In reality, nylon monofilament will absorb up to about 10% of its weight in water. Water absorption is a mixed blessing. On the upside, nylon monofilament that has absorbed water becomes more limp and supple, and makes knot tying easier. On the downside, water-logged nylon monofilament swells, increasing its diameter, reducing its break strength by about 20% (i.e., 10-pound test becomes 8-pound), and increasing its elongation (stretch) by 25% to 30%.

Fluorocarbon monofilament, however, is basically impervious to water. Depending upon the formulation, it absorbs less than 0.05% of its weight in water, with the result that none of its physical properties change after a prolonged soaking. The diameter, break strength and elongation of wet fluorocarbon monofilament remain essentially the same as dry fluorocarbon—but so does its stiffness, resulting in no appreciable reduction in line-coil memory after prolonged use. If you can live with more pronounced memory, fluorocarbon gets the nod here.

15-20 foot visibility in south dakota small mouth fishing... Ive caught them the same on mono and high vis yellow braid with a ned rig on bottom or slowly retrieved moving mid water column. Guy on back of my boat had floro and caught them the same frequency 3 days in a row.

Im just not a believer in line scaring fish off, yet, Im new to the game only 32 years or so.

Spot on Jeff and if everyone will remember the original claim to fame about fluoro was its supposed invivibility. As to what the "Pros on the tour" use or CLAIM to use, that is also debatable. Sponsorships spurn on many claims. As I said in an earlier post, I've yet to have anyone outfish me using fluoro vs my mono or braid.

Ahhhhh.... Conspiracy theory guys. Gotcha.

I also spurned the light line claims for years. I heard Aaron Martens go on about how he won an Elite event using 6 lb fluoro on his drop shot when nobody else was getting bit but that he would have gotten more bites if he'd dropped down to 4 lb line. That's hard for a Texas boy who used 20lb line on almost everything to wrap his brain around. I laughed it off at the time thinking there's no way.

Then we did some events around the country and I remember going to Lake Hartwell in the Carolinas and they said you "had to" have on 8 lb line to get bit. I refused and let my boat partner whoop up on me for two full days before I went and got some. Then it happened again, and again until I finally realized that just because we don't deal with that down here, doesn't make it not true.

And roll your eyes all you want at what the "Pros on the tour" CLAIM to use but why do you think these guys don't use whatever they can to help them beat the field? These are guys that fish for a living all around the country and need any advantage they can get over other professionals. Which part, exactly, is debatable? Do you think the guys fishing with the pros are lying? Do you think the pros have spooled 8 lb resin mono onto the spools of fluoro to fool everyone? I'm curious where the conspiracy theory comes from.

You say you haven't been outfished by anyone using fluoro? I'm not being a smartasss here but just letting you know.... If you really want to learn something and get outfished by someone using fluoro, consider doing some Tour events as a CoAngler. I can guarantee you both.

Well of course I would be outfished by someone with superior skill level. My reference was comparing apples to apples, fishing with folks at a similar skill level, here in Texas and Mexico waters I've never seen fluoro surpass mono or copolymer. I have absolutely no interest in fishing any tour at any level. As someone who was bass fishing when Ray Scott was only an insurance salesman from Alabama, I am about as anti-tournament as anyone you'll ever find on the lake. I won't open that can of worms here on TFF as this forum is very pro tournament and it wouldn't be deemed appropriate by the powers that be.

Steez, we use technique specific rods and reels, they have technique specific line too. Have you tried Seaguar flippin flouro? A spool might be worth your time.

This is 100% accurate. The Elites tour guys will use EVERY advantage they can get to obtain one more bite at the end of the day the the other guys.

Rick Clunn has always been a no-nonsense guy when it comes to sponsors and his style of fishing. I cannot find the article now because it was probably 20 years ago when I read it. He was flipping docks at some lake that had an abundance of zebra mussels attached to them. He said every time he would hook a good fish under the dock the zebra mussels would cut his mono. So he went to fluoro to improve his hook to land ratio. He wasn't promoting fluoro or even plugging his sponsor. He was simply stating fact.

Fluorocarbon is not simply a fad guys. It is here to stay at least until something more abrasion resistant comes along. It is also much less visible to the fish but that's not why I use it. It has much lower stretch so it allows you to feel your bait better and detect the bite better. If none of those things appeal to you then fluro may not be for you.

Does it have it's issues, Yes. I have a love/hate relationship with it.

Here's a simple little test you can perform at home. I used to bite thru my line to trim the tag end after tying my knots, (Yes Jackson, that's why my two eye teeth are flat). Bite thru a piece of 15# mono of your choice and then do the same with a piece of fluoro. Doesn't matter the brand, just try it. Now tell me which one you think will be more abrasion resistant.

Flippin Fluoro .... LMAO!

Designed by Denny Brauer, he's a comedian, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXMDHkQr-6w

I agree 100%. I Texas Rig around docks 95% of the time and I used to only fish Big Game. It's awesome line that works. I always checked my line for damage after every 10 casts or so and retie if I needed to. I just got in that habit after breaking off a monster at the boat, right after telling myself I should probably go ahead and retie, but didn't. A few years later, my buddy convinced me to try some Seaguar. My retie rate went to almost nothing. For abrasion resistance, fluoro can't be beat. I immediately noticed how much more solid my hooksets felt as well. I mostly just fun fish with some evening tournaments here and there so Seaguar 100% fluoro is a little overkill for me. I started using P-Line that has a fluoro coating. Still great abrasion resistance but cheaper and it feels a little more supple than 100% fluoro. The low-vis aspect of 100% fluoro isn't a big deal in the dingy water I fish. Oh, and no more biting the line for me. Had to start using nail clippers.

Ken A, I believe that event was on Champlain, and he was flipping pilings. Both Floro and mono have their applications. For me, floro is less shock resistant, and doesn’t lay on the spool as smoothly as mono. Bottom line, I prefer mono for most applications, especially short line applications. Steez’s issue is not a line issue, it is a guide issue that is affecting his line, and would affect it regardless what line he uses.

I try the best of both worlds approach. Braid mainline with a mono or fluoro leader. It may take just a little more time to tie the leader on but I seem to have good luck with it. Saves money on line too.

Sounds right Richard. I think it was Champlain. Did you fish that event? I recall you telling me you were fishing the same creek with him in one event.

Agreed on Steez's issue. It ain't the line dude.

Not that event. Lake Livingston 1995. I found it on YouTube. &#128513; I was such a kid!!

I agree too....it's the micro guide tip top and my style of slack line fishing. I have gotten away from feeling for bites and now almost always see the bite. ......when flipping. Sometimes it is a good pop.....most of the time it's a minute line twitch or line getting "slacker". Lol. When I set a hook, it is pretty rough on the line.

I have micro guides and line watch or slack line fish exclusively with plastics now. I like the bow in my line and watch it move like you said but still usually feel it, today though it seemed like my line came at the boat more than anything so I had a hard time catching up to them and getting all the slack out to set the hook.

I have no issues with line coiling up, with tatsu. today I did have a lot of memory on a reel with abraz x I was trying to use up so I am pulling it off, but 15 is the most I use, 20 for sure has more memory and is tough to use with 1/8 or 3/16 weight like Im using right now.

sounds like line twist.

agree but Im sure lots of us use biffle bugs without any line twist, I usually throw them with a 3/16 belly weighted hook or a 1/8-1/4 nose weight depending on the size of the bug.

Good points and thoughts.
For high impact short line stuff Im using big game.
It’s just better for me but I’m not qualified to say anything more than just my two cents!
I think for fluoro to be at its best requires a good fisherman good fresh fluoro and proper use.
Mono is more forgiving, esp for short line shallow water stuff. But for sure all the line types shine for certain things and are here to stay. I’m ready for a new line type though .
I don’t think that op issue is a line problem- agree with those other reasons mentioned.

Transparent titanium??

Steez, did you ever figure out what the problem was or a way to fix the issues you were having?

I fixed it.....temporarily. Lol. New line. Again.

I think I found the issue for real though. Neoprene reel cover. I think it's kinking the line at the levelwind guide. And from there, it gets a little worse as I re-tie the line, and put the cover back on. I think I'll just leave the reel covers off throughout the day. That, combined with abusing the line on hooksets.

Best I can come up with.

Floro is a lot of problem for a little solution. In my opinion...

Nobody wants to hear that fluoro is the problem.

It IS the problem. No one is disagreeing. But, it's WORTH the problem.

Try using a Revo Winch with a lower gear ratio, cause gear ratio matters