Whats the difference in rods? IM6, IM8, IM10, etc.

Whats the difference in rods with IM6, IM8, IM10, etc.???

Thanks

the amount of graphite in the rod

A little about graphite. For our purposes, graphite is rated by "Modulus of Elasticity," referring to the relationship between stress and strain. It usually defines the stiffness to weight ratio of the fibers used to construct the rod blank. Generally speaking, the higher the modulus of the fiber used to make the blank, the lighter the resulting blank can be for any given stiffness. A graphite fiber called IM6 pretty much revolutionized the industry. With IM6, you had a high modulus, high strain rate graphite that made it possible to produce a lighter, more sensitive rod.

The modulus of graphite used in rods keeps getting higher and higher, making for more sensitive, lighter and more efficient rods. With that comes a trade off. There is no doubt that the higher the modulus rod , the easier it is to break and the less (angler) abuse that it can take. Graphite in of itself is very strong and the increasingly high modulus of top end graphite enables rod blanks to become lighter and more sensitive due to the ability to make blanks with thinner walls. Of course, the downside to this is they are much more susceptible to angler abuse. The thin walls just cannot stand up to rough handling and being banged around in the boat, truck, etc. The type of fishing that you do and the way that you treat your equipment should determine your rod choice, NOT company hype or status.

Is there any benefit to using a high-modulus, top of the line rod for bottom-bouncing? Probably not. Is there benefit to using one for jigging? Probably. Only you can decide if the benefit increase can justify the large cost increase.

I did not think there was a "true" industry standard on this rating? No way to compare appls to apples.

So basically its just a manufactures way of differentiating and marketing the quality of graphite in their models of rods?

the modulus can be important, yet deceiving. Also different resins, additives, and manufacturing processes add strength to rods, making it where and IM8 graphite from one company is a different weight with the rods have different tendenancies to break as well. Also the IM6-10 can be somewhat arbritrary, but I think the "million modulus" is a better comparison from rod to rod.

I remember seeing a posting somewhere of the exact #'s but here's a guestimate to the IM(X) to million modulus (and yes some overlap, that's why I said "guestimate):

IM6 33-40
IM7 38-44
IM8 42-50
IM9 48-55
IM10 55+ Highest I've seen advertised on a rod is 92 MM


Bass Pro rods are a good example of being different. They have really high modulus graphite rods, but their manufacturing process adds a lot to strengthen rods while adding weight. That's actually what I DON'T like about them (being heavy for such a high modulus), but they resist breaking (IMO) better than most any rod of stated similar graphite.

Also, don't be afraid or suaded into thinking that IM6 rod from company A that is $30 is equal to IM6 rod from company B that is $90. There can be huge differences in rod weights, feel, and overall quality.

Confused yet?

Hexcel is the originator of the "IM" series of graphite fabrics. Not sure if they trademarked "IM_", but you now see rod makers use "IM" even if they don't use Hexcel graphite like the IM10 rods from many different makers. I assume if you see IM6, 7, 8 or 9, it is indeed a Hexcel fabric, but I have no way to verify this. The Hexcel fabric ranges from IM4 to IM9 (note there is no IM10). The modulus for these fabrics is between 40 and 44 million. The IM in IM6 means intermediate modulus. There is no such thing as a high modulus "IM" blank. It's an oxymoron, a high modulus intermediate modulus blank?

So the question is, what's the difference between the various grades of "IM" fabric if the modulus ratings are very close. The difference is the "elongation to failure" rating (etf is measured in KSI and is tinsel strenght) and some other technical things I'm not qualified to detail and probably beyond 99.9% of us. The lower series have lower etf/ tinsel strength. Below are the Hexcel fabrics listed with their etfs and modulus. Note that the modulus is very close but the etfs vary quite a bit. In theory the higher etf allows for less epoxy and lighter finished rod (more on this below).
Hexcel IM4 600 40
Hexcel IM6 760 40
Hexcel IM7 780 40
Hexcel IM8 790 44
Hexcel IM9 920 42

The key factors beyond what's listed above for any rod are scrim, resin and finish content. You could have 2 rods with the same graphite fabric have totally different feel, action and weight based on the difference in scrim, resin and finish. This is a key difference between the high end blanks from the likes of Loomis, Lamiglas and St. Croix and the $70 rod and Bass Pro.

Ever notice that Loomis and the other high end manufacturers listed above don't give their modulus ratings and other lower end rods like BPS, Cabela's and Berkley make a big deal of it? It is a marketing tool. One thing to remember is that as modulus increases, durability decreases. Thus, a cheap high modulus rod (think BPS Extreme which are close to double the modulus ratings of the IMs) which should be lighter is actually heavier because the high modulus fabric is thicker with more resin for durability than a comparable "high end" lower modulus rod.

Cliff Notes - IM is a series of graphite fabrics made by Hexcel that varies little in modulus, ranging from 40-44 million. The range includes IM4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 (no IM10). Where the fabrics vary is in tinsel strength with the higher numbers having higher tinsel strength. Finished rods can vary greatly even when made of the same fabric based on the scrim, resin and finish.

So what makes a "better" rod? I'll take a shot at this later this afternoon when I have more time.

Thanks for the information guys.

A great question Doss, and some great answers guys, thanks

Why would you think there is no IM 10 blanks? We buy them and they are IM 10 but then again I only own a rod company?

never mind

Grant,
Hexcel is the company that invented and sells the IM series of fabrics. They do not sell IM10 carbon fabric. IM10 is a made up designation by some rod or blank company marketing guy somewhere. Unlike IM4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 which have specific meaning, IM10 means nothing. Unfortunate as it is, it's the marketing people praying on hype and ignorance.

You can buy a Polex Submariner on nearly any street corner in China Town, but that doesn't mean it's made the same as a Rolex.

BTW, You should check it out for yourself, www.hexcel.com . They are the largest manufacturer in the world of carbon fabrics.

I won't use anything less than IM15 on the rods I build and prefer IM20 plus. If you're using anything less, you're missing out on what it's like to fish with the very very very very best.

Take Care,
Robert

Excellent read of your post Sir. I would however subsitute the phrase "Angler Abuse" in favor of "Real World Conditions".

This ain't golf.

OK

So how do you explain my IM10 to be lighter than the IM8 if they don't make it? But they make IM15 and IM20 but not 10? Most of what I read on this is about composite not graphite yes they are fibers but they are diffrent.

Grant,
I have IM7 blanks that weigh less than IM9s. I'm not really sure what your getting at. There's much more to the weight issue than what IM series it is, even if it is a made up IM series. Obviously if Hexcel only make IM4, 6,7, 8 and 9 fabric, there is no such thing as IM15 or IM20. I just made it up like whoever did with IM10. However, I'm sure over the next few years will see someone start calling their blanks/ rods IM12. Maybe I should trade mark IM12 for use with my own blanks.

It's a little confusing, but here is a link to a summary page showing all the relevant data for each fabric.
Link

Do you make your own blanks? How do these companys that make them get away with the IM10 if there is no such animal? I know you said someone made it up but do you know 100% nobody is making them? I am not being a smart A-s just would like to know why you think this company is the only one that makes these fabrics. The guys I get my blanks from buys about 10,000 at a time from a well know blank market company and that's just one blank there are plenty more he buys and I think he knows the diffrence in IM 4,6,7,8,9 just asking.

Grant,
If the guys that make the IM fabric don't make IM10 fabric, then there is no meaning to IM10 like there is with IM4, 6, 7, 8 and 9. It's a made up name much like my IM15 or IM20. My guess and it is only a guess is that Hexcel had not trade marked "IM10". I realize you can buy IM10 rods and blanks and I expect you'll be able to buy IM12s in the next few years (assuming Hexcel has not trade marked IM12).

I mean no disrespect to you or the guy you buy your blanks from, but if he doesn't know that IM10 is a made up name, he isn't as knowledgeable about actual blank manufacturing as you think and just repeats blank maker marketing and hype.

Let me add that I have no problem with "IM10" rods/ blanks. There are some very nice blanks/ rods labeled IM10. It's just that the label is meaningless unlike when you see IM6,7,8 and 9.

I'll go back to the original question posted in this thread, what's the difference between IM6,7,8,9 and 10. The difference between the IM6-9 fabrics is tinsel strength ranging from about 600-900 ksi and the blanks/ rods will have different scrims, resins and finish. The modulus ratings for the IM6-9s are all pretty close 40-44 million. In threory, the IM9 should be lighter than the IM8 and it lighter than the IM7

The difference between the IM10 and the others could be anything because there is no IM10 fabric. Unlike the others, IM10s could be any modulus or tinsel strength.

Grant, the way that I am understanding this is I is for intermediate and if it goes up to 10 that would be high. Maybe, I am just high and think that I get it I think that this is a great read, even if I don't really understand it all.

Is there such thing as HM ?

By the way, the word is "tensile", not "tinsel"...sorry, just the old English teacher in me...no offense meant.

No offense taken. I'm a terrible speller. I wanted to spell it tensil, but my spell checker always corrected it to tinsel.

Let me try an analogy. IM4,6,7,8 and 9 are a brand name of fabric (think about Chevy 350 small block). The IM10 is not a brand name (think generic small block). You know if you buy a small block at your local Chevy dealer, it will have certain characteristics regardless of what dealer you buy from (much like IM7 rods from BPS or Cabela's being similar). However, the generic small block may or may not have those characteristics. This is not to say the generic block or IM10 for that matter, can't be great, they can. It's just not a Chevy small block with the uniform standards Chevy imposes. Anyone can build a generic small block and sell it, much like anyone can call a blank an IM10 regardless of what characteristics it has.

Another analogy is Goretex. It is a brand a water proofing material. If you want to call something Goretex, you have to buy the material from WH Gore and manufacture your jacket using their approved techniques. You can use other waterproof material to make your jacket, some of it even identical to Goretex because their patent has expired, but it isn't "Goretex" because that is the brand you can only buy from WH Gore. You can also buy cheap waterproof material that may or may not work as well as Goretex and use that for your jacket. With Goretex, you get standards and you can only buy it from WH Gore. Anyone can manufacture the generic fabric and it may or may not be good.

I hope that helps make it clear, IM6,7,8 and 9 are made using a specific intermediate modulus fabric from Hexcel with 40-44 mil modulus and tensile strength of 600-900 ksi. The IM10 could be made using any fabric from any manufacturer.

HM is a generic term for high modulus. Typically anything over 50 million is considered high modulus. You'll sometimes see reference to mid modulus blanks/ rods and those are typically made with a 33 mil modulus fabric.

Wow, My heads going to expolde!

I have been told by more than one rod rep that there really is no industry standard for measuring different types of graphite blanks. I feel like should rely more on the way the rod fits you than try and let a bunch of numbers and hearsay from the marketing department tell you what rods you should be fishing. Just how I feel.

Welcome to the TFF Sir...It only gets Worse/Better

Small Block 400, 350, 305, 327, 302, 283 and even 265.

I'm still confused.........and without my glasses I doubt I can tell a IM8 from a 10.

Well my blanks are IM8 our main seller but I am as confused as the rest? I have bought and used IM10 that they don't make but I am being told other wise like I said not being a smart a-s here just don't know where this came from? But I just can not see this being the only company makeing IM fabric sorry. My blank guy buys and sell blanks all over the country and he is as confused as us when I told him to look at this he said OK we don't have IM10 so why do I buy IM10 blanks b/c some one made it up for marketing hearsay. I really don't know what to ask and only get this is the only company that makes IM I just can't see it sorry for being hard headed but that's how I am or aleast told I am LOL!!!!!

The sad thing is that I only know how to use a rod and not make one, but this conversation is pretty easy to follow.

It is clear that the IM10 is not a product of the Hexcel corporation (the original manufacturer of fabric for rod building) and the IM10 that is being used is from a another company. Not that I care...but someone should be able to look up the specs of the IM10 product and see how those specs compare to materials from Hexcel for IM6, 8 or whatever...

This thread also points out that there are MANY variables to rod building...which is just stating the obvious when we think of how many different rods we have used in our lifetime and how different they all were.

Bout sums it all up!

Good job Fuzzy!

Ok, I called and sent emails to some people I know at a few of the large OEM rod makers to ask for some clarity on this subject.

Quick answer - Most of the big names that call their rods IM6-9 are using Hexcel fabric. One person told me if it's made by a US based manufacturer and it's called IM6-9, it's most likely Hexcel fabric, even if it's made in Asia. The 2 manufacturers where I know someone that have "IM" series blanks confirmed they use Hexcel fabric. They did say however, the cheap rods using the IM6-9 labels are usually not made with Hexcel fabric, but with fabric made overseas that is "the same". No one knew if "IM6" and the rest are trade marked, but they weren't aware of anyone ever being sued. So in theory, you could label any rod IM6...IM9 and this may be happening.

They all said the same thing about IM10, it could be anything. There are some very high quality IM10 rods/ blanks. One of the guys I spoke with works for a company that makes IM10 rods and he would only confirm that they are higher modulus and tensile strength than IM9s. It was also interesting in that he insinuated they are using a Hexcel fabric when I asked him how Hexcel felt about using their naming style. He said they are not using Hexcel "IM10" fabric, but insinuated it was still from Hexcel and that's why the had a good relationship with them and had no trouble using IM10. But, the same guy warned that there are some very crappy rods/ blanks out there labeled IM10

They all also noted that modulus is only a small piece of the puzzle and isn't really good for anything but marketing unless your comparing rods from the same manufacturer and even that could be iffy. One guy told me his sales team was always pushing for higher modulus rods to compete and that's when the stopped listing their modulus. I won't say where this guy worked, but he pointed out that he wasn't aware of any domestic made rod that retailed over $200 and listed the modulus. He named of a bunch of manufacturers, some I'd never even heard of that make high end fly rods, and said to the best of his knowledge, none listed modulus. He said the main reason is that most rod makers of high end rods/ blanks use multi modulus fabrics for their rods/ blanks. The may use a high mod in the lower section and IM in the middle or tip. He said they use as many as 3 different fabrics in one rod.

It was interesting to go through this process. I communicated with 5 people at some of the largest rod/ blank makers based in the US, two of whom I know fairly well and they were all unbelievably secretive, even the two guys I know well. They were free with general information, but very tight with any specifics about their rods. Because the rod/ blank manufacturing business is so incestuous, most knew almost as much about their competitors rods as they did about their own and were freer with this info, but not as much as I'd expect.

So I'm sure that makes everything clear as mud.

Ok, got the IM10 figured out, but looked at a Bass Pro Catalog today and they had IM85.

Folks,

I'm pretty well versed in the basics of the mechanics of materials.

Modulus of elasticity is defined as



Here's the wiki LINK for those who are so inclined.

In layman's terms what modulus indicates is the the ratio of the deflection of a rod vs. the rods mass. Let's say that we have a fixture that the butt of a rod blank is placed in such that only a couple of inches of the butt of the rod is being used. The rod is positioned in the horizontal. We then measure the distance of the tip of the rod to the floor underneath. Next we apply a given load to the tip in the from of a weight. We then measure the distance of the rod tip under that load to the floor underneath. This distance is the deflection. The deflection is a function of the 'stiffness' of the rod blank.

Now the 'stiffness' of the rod blank has several contributing factors. The modulus of the material that the rod blank is made out of is one of them. There are others, among these are the blank diameter, and the mass of the blank.

With any tube one my increase the diameter of the tube keeping the wall thickness the same and get a stiffer tube. One may also increase the wall thickness without increasing the tube diameter and get a stiffer blank as well. The thing here is that doing either one of these two things will increase the mass, and thus the weight of the blank. Going to a higher modulus material is all about going to a material in which an intrinsically 'stiffer' material is utilized to gain 'stiffness' without increasing mass / weight.

There are complications. (Isn't there always....)

Unless there are design adjustments made, going to a thinner wall will cause the 'crush' strength of a blank to decreased, and the blank will become more 'brittle' as well.

There is a heck of a lot of engineering that goes into the design of a truly outstanding rod blank. Indeed, there is no magic number, etc. that can tell one just how good a rod blank will be. It's waaaaay more complicated that that.

TFP

My blank guy would never tell you where he gets them not even me it is very secrete but I would never ask all I can tell you is they are light and one of the best blanks on the market today I will back that up 100%. I will just keep makeing the IM8 like always and leave this to the bigger guys but I will sell you IM!) if you want it...

IM6, IM8, IM10, IM confused

Good read though. Robert you have one rod on your boat for lets say crank baits. What is it? Length action IM# brand name?

Most high end crankbait rods like Loomis are multi modulus. They use different fabrics for different sections of the rod. They may use a high modulus for the butt and a lower modulus or even a little glass for the tip section. I'm a crankbait fool and some might argue a fool in general :), so I have 4 or 5 different crankbait rods, ranging from 7' l/ml to 8' medium heavy.

If I had to fish all my crankbaits with one over the counter rod, I'd use a Loomis CBR903. It's a 7'6" medium with a very soft tip, but enough backbone to muscle big fish if you need to (caught me a 10+ in the trees at Fork). My only complaint is the handle is much too short. I'd prefer 10-10.5 inches from butt to the back of the reel seat. For the money though, I'd recommend you talk to Grant or some of the other custom builders on here. Any good custom builder can build you a better rod for the same cost as the Loomis and maybe cheaper.

I am confused for sure now.

Hey thanks Robert

The variables are endless and each manufacturer tweaks the materials a little differently. Anymore IM is more about marketing than anything else. How the rod performs for you in terms of sensitivity, strength, weight, etc. is more important.

I think Robert has made a Game Effort in trying to explain some Insight on the Term High Modulus Blank. I tend to think the same process( Gyspy- ism) goes on in the Lariat Rope Business. That being that several Companies taking Credit for Coming Out with the perfect Blend of Heel Rope, while in fact its tied by another Rope Company.
*not sure what This has to do with the price of Rice in China- but sounded good at the time

Either way, You gotta believe that Everyone seeks that special feel in a rod and Sometimes people just cant get there buying Them off the shelf at Walmart

I understand exactly where Robert R is coming from. That's why I've already started my process of building a rod and calling it "IM23" and making millions!

I worked in the golf industry and Callaway Golf as an example used several different manufactuers of its graphite shafts to keep up with demand. You could have 10 of the same drivers and not be sure the shafts all came from the same mfg. because the artwork is the same. This could also be happening in the fishing rod business as well. I'm not saying G Loomis is using blanks from China, but I can guarantee you BPS is! And this is not impling that China is not making some very fine knock-off blanks from G Loomis specs, but it is not the same quality as a G Loomis. PS: Robert R - Thank you for your time and sharing of knowledge. By the way, how do you measure the IM rating of a cane pole...ha ha!

Do any of you guys actually make your own rod blanks? Is it worth the process of trying? Also if you do what machinery or equipment do you have (for mass production)?

razorback

To the best of my knowledge, there are no custom builders making their own blanks.

Lots of sophisticated equipment required and very expensive.

No rod builders make their own blanks. Some of us have rod makers build special blanks for us that match specific requirements we have. Making our own blanks is just too cost prohibitive.

It is very expensive. Next time you're at Bass Pro take a look at any line of rods you like, say the BPS Johnny Morris rods. Note how many different sized rods you see in that line up. Each unique sized rod requires a mandrel and they aren't cheap, about $7-10k each. You might be able to use the same mandrel for a 7' medium heavy and a 6'6" medium heavy, but figure a 7' medium that has a different butt and tip diameter would necessitate a different mandrel. So figure 4 or 5 mandrels for a basic series of production blanks/ rods. Now you need a pressure roller to roll the blanks and an oven to bake the blanks.

this has been good post some good info