Sears Makes Me Think Fly Fishing Retail

I guess we all heard that Sears is saying they are no longer a "going concern," and that got me thinking about the big picture of our retail fly fishing sources. I did a little thinking and reading (always dangerous), and recalled my minor in US economic history, to come up with an insanely long article on the topic - https://texasflycaster.com/shots-fired-big-box-fly-fishing-retail-life-support/. It's my opinion, but I wonder how you guys see this playing out? It's a free read for the next 24-hours. There might be a surprise, or two, here. (Move it to another board if you need to Mr. Moderator!)

Shannon,
you wrote:
Locally, Backwoods in Fort Worth, Texas, ceased operating as a going concern earlier this year. It should be noted that Backwoods Fort Worth is just one of the retail locations for that company, and no matter what, Backwoods did not fail because of its people on the floors. It failed the way the vast majority of businesses fail – bad management at the top.
To be fair, they never ceased operations. A local investor group in Ft Worth has purchased the whole chain out of bankruptcy and will continue to operate backwoods locally in a new location on Foch Street as well as 3 or 4 other stores in other cities. Stephen Woodcock the fly fishing manager mentioned that the new owners are fly fisherman themselves and are looking to expand that end of the business. So the story isn't over- just a new chapter in my opinion.

Les

Hi Shannon, you make some good points in this article, and while brick and mortar stores will continue to adapt or die, I don't think we'll see them disappear entirely. One of the points you touched on in this article was the social aspect of fly shops. Not to mention that people new to the sport will always have a million little questions, and the best way for those questions to be answered (IMHO) is in person.

We've all met some knowledgable, good people working the counter at the big box retailers, but we've also had our share of needing answers when the only person available was just there for a paycheck.

So I imagine that the BIG BOX brick and mortars will continue to close, but that's alright, too. The local, independent places may be a little more expensive, but they also have more skin in the game and outright passion for the sport. Nature abhors a vacuum, and as the big box places close I think we'll see more mom and pops take their place.

I like buying my fly fishing and fly tying gear and materials online. I just ordered fly rod and reel number 10 or so from an online retailer like every other rod and reel I've purchased. I love fly fishing and tie and fish the flies I tie and catch a big variety of fish with my flies. It just now occurs to me that I haven't ever enjoyed going into dedicated fly fishing stores. I try once in a while to check out a fly fishing retailer. Recently, I went to one and tried out one of the rods they had. I was kind of enjoying the process until the fellow helping me kept insisting on giving me casting lessons (I was doing just fine on my own). I didn't ask for a lesson. Maybe I'm just unlucky with my limited forays into brick and mortar fly fishing stores. When I was just getting into tying, I went to a retailer and took a short series of classes. In truth, I learned a lot more watching YouTube videos of tying. Maybe someday I'll find a fly fishing brick and mortar store I connect with. Until then, there are plenty of online sources that I'm very happy to deal with.

x2. In fact, I buy just about everything fishing related online...fly and conventional.

What would make a store connect better with you - karstopo and Meadowlark?

Consider me corrected on the Backwoods portion of their demise. I wish them all the luck in the world. If they don't change, they will need a lot of luck - IMO. Maybe Mr. Woodcock will read this, as always, and glean from karstopo and Meadowlark - what changes could aid success in the new chapter of Backwoods. I think I was clear on what local guides would like to see more of from local mom-and-pops. I want EVERYBODY'S boats to float!

I sure would like to know more about who bought Backwoods! I can't find anything in the records, except the CH11 filings.

I think if I lived closer to a fly fishing store I'd probably pop in more. I see a new place is about to open in Houston, Gordy and Son I think it is. They are going to have a casting pond. Maybe I'll check it out.

I think it would be difficult to ask any brand new mom-and-pop to support a fly regular fly tying event and dedicate part of a store to the materials. ON THE OTHER HAND, I saw that Living Waters is building a new building from scratch, down in Round Rock, Texas. That is truly amazing. I always thought demographics dictate the popularity of fly tying.

Good read! I grew up in an Oregon Town of 3,000! That small town had 3 fly shops in 1980. 1985 there were none! Fly Shops will have to adapt to the world wide web, or go out of business! Walk in business will not carry a fly shop! The fly fishing trade does a great job marketing to Fly Shops, Big Box Stores, and direct website sales! Simms sells the same products at the same prices, and makes sure their MAP guidelines are followed! U will see me more in the fly fishing / tying sections! Trying to spend more time with the fly rod and more time in Oregon! Had a fishing lure business for 8 years, now I'm semi-retired

I am thinking that the people that run Living Waters have another business who's profits helps subsidize the fly shop.

The only thing you can't do online that you can do in a store is put your hands on the material, if they have it in stock. You can typically get a hundred reviews online and maybe one or two at the store. I haven't arranged any fly fishing travel or hired guides but that can be done via emails, websites, or on the phone, no store need be in the picture.

I'm all for shopping local, but if the closest store is 50 miles, that doesn't seem very local. I see maybe one other fly fisherman in 30 outings. I still fish with my bait caster/lure using friends. They are only minimally interested in the fly scene. One friend had an instructor yell at him the whole time during a lesson he took to learn how to cast. He's burned on fly fishing for life. Another friend tried it after seeing me go at it, but bought some bad gear that quickly fell apart in the salt water environment.

I don't think fly fishing will ever be mainstream. Maybe in certain locations. Around where I fish, I still get the "what's he doing here with the fly rod" comments. It seems like a big hill to climb to see more fly shops around. It may be for those business guys that do it for a labor of love or just have a lot of internet savvy or in specialized locations.

Sometimes the cast, and the caster, have to be torn down to the dirt before they are rebuilt with any usefulness.

I had about a dozen rods broke over my back while I was learning. Still have the scars. Lost that tailing loop, though.

I went the way of book, YouTube and DVD instruction. Lots of good material out there to learn to cast without enduring any aggressive or abusive casting instructors.

karpstapo
you wrote:
"I still fish with my bait caster/lure using friends. They are only minimally interested in the fly scene. One friend had an instructor yell at him the whole time during a lesson he took to learn how to cast. He's burned on fly fishing for life. Another friend tried it after seeing me go at it, but bought some bad gear that quickly fell apart in the salt water environment."
These are excellent points of why some folks never hook into fly fishing. No one wants to be scolded for "not getting it" quickly enough. When I helped introduce the Fly Fish 101 at my club, I was thinking about scenarios like these where a fly fisher gets casting lesson from a book and or from You Tube and off they go... or not. The original premise of Fly Fish 101 was helping new fly fishers (members or not) get some basic casting instruction and wet a line, with the help of a more experience caster, with hopes of connecting with a fish. It has proved to be a better way for introducing folks to fly fishing. After all, we want to fish don't we?


Les

Since this topic seems to have already jumped the track, I'll continue down the new path.

I suspect that most of us fly fish for entertainment and recreation. So, shouldn't a casting lesson be enjoyable? If it is not fun, then why do it?

I have met a few instructors that don't share that view. Thankfully, they are the minority.

I've walked into a few fly shops that don't seem to understand that concept either. They usually don't stay open very long...

Living Waters was mentioned earlier. That shop "gets it". When I visited it, they had a good selection of fly tying materials that I wanted and they definitely made me feel very welcome.

Living Waters definitely gets it, they also have a fly tying nights and monthly instruction events where they bring people in and help lower the barrier of entry to the sport. Having a monthly get together to show people where to fish and what flies to use helps create a feedback loop where customers return when that info leads to positive fishing experiences. Do some people come in, get the info and go place orders on Amazon? Probably, but it also brings in people like me who want to support them for the good things they do. It also helps that Chris and Emily take the time to get to know and remember their customers.

I think you can extend that reasoning outlined earlier in this thread to any business whether it's a fly shop, restaurant, sporting goods store, or grocery store. If excellent service was routine, it would no longer be excellent. The sad fact of capitalism is that some businesses will thrive while others will die and be replaced. There is still room for both in this world, but I think the key for traditional brick and mortars is focusing on service and knowledge, something online retailers can't provide.

well stated MassAction.

check out Bayou City Anglers- run by Stacy Lyn (formerly fly fishing manager of Sportman's Finest) and she has a cadre of well trained young fly fishers who are more than helpful. Ask for Dylan if you like.

Les

Cool, I get to Houston once in a while. I need to make more of an effort to get there.

I still wear my Blue Heron cap.....

Backwoods literally stinks. Everytime i shopped at this store they followed me around and tried to get me to spend more on higher priced items. Im sorry for the bad publicity but they need to keep their customers needs and wants in mind before their own! I bought a padle board from them and they never gave me the fins for it that i needed. After i called the manufacturer and they said them fins should of came with the board backwoods insisted i buy more??? Sell me what i want. I went in again to have a paddle board orderd from them and they quoted me 500.00 for shipping alone,,,, and really didnt want to sell me anything other than what they had on the showroom floor. Thats fine " i bought the board" that sameday straight from the manaufacturer for 50.00 shipping to my door with zero tax over online. I got over 9k now in my boards and rods and im sorry to say most of it is from online because of that. Unwelcoming place i only hope they can do better in the future

I don't know if the whole DIY thing isn't factored in enough. My washing machine stopped working. In the not too distance past, that would mean deciding on whether or not to call the repair guy or just junk the machine and start over with a new one. But wait, let's see if there is a YouTube video on this. Sure enough, there was. The cost of the part and a little elbow grease later, the machine is as good as new. I probably did it for 4x less than what the repair guy would have done it for. Not ragging on him. He would have come out, diagnosed, ordered, and come back for install, that's money.

This story is repeated for car repair ( I do that now thanks to YouTube and Rockauto). In fact, I did a repair on my truck that cost me $16 in parts and about an hour of time that the exact same repair cost $250 previously at the shop. Cell phone screen, $70 DIY vs $200 in shop replacement (thank you YouTube and Amazon) and there's legions of others like me doing DIY learn how to do anything. Expertise has been democratized via YouTube and the interest board forum.

That is how I learned to fly fish. Browse the boards, look at videos, filmed my cast, compared it to the pros, refine, repeat. I already knew how to fish, learned via trial and error, mimicry, interest forum boards and YouTube. Want to tie flies, yep, there are scores of videos on that. Whatever expertise is in the fly shop is probably also on YouTube or an Internet board like this one. I can mull over my next rod purchase and read dozens of comments about the pros and cons of said rod. The fly store will give me one or two perspectives and possibly some negative vibe with it. Yes, I can't put my hands on it via the web. But, many others have and will let you know their feelings. After a while, you find some individuals out there that see things in the same basic way you do. Their perspective and experience becomes something to value. And then when you are ready to purchase, you can shop around without burning any gas. One click, days later, it's at your door.

So I am beginning to distill this excellent thread. The long lost art of customer service is paramount. Knowledge. Product. Establishing relationships. Being willing to order for a customer. AND I have a wish, for shops that integrate their business - customers - local guides - other interests (like photography lessons / boater education / environmental concerns / non-profit organizations, etc...) on a consistent basis.

One of the worst experiences I have had is shopping at Best Buy, where they never have music CD's anymore - even Grammy winners. So I go in to buy, and the reply, when I finally have to ask if they have it is: "No, but have you checked online?" I want to come back at them, but it's just not worth the bother. I think they must've figured out that is bad service, because I don't hear it anymore.

I kind of tried a flip-flop thing with bringing back my old PoPs Fly Shop. It's online, but there's no shop, no store. The site serves as a contact point for a customer to look and see what they may want, then contact me personally to talk about the order. Why sell a guy trout flies if he's going to the coast? It is almost the opposite of "online buying" - there's customer service, information, and personal interaction with maybe a little knowledge thrown in. The website is just a starting point.

I understand that the demise of the Austin Angler was because of people coming in to try different rods etc and then going home and ordering online. I always tried to buy there myself. We had a fly shop in Port Isabel for awhile but again I understand that there was not enough traffic to pay the rent much less make a decent wage. Just mi dos pesos.

Larry Haines at Port Isabel, TX, gave it a good long go. But fly fishing, in general, is a small part of the overall fishing market. I believe, in his case he decided to retire.
If I am not mistaken, Austin Angler came and went long before the internet monster reared its beautiful ugly head.
Stopped in at the new location for Backwoods Fort Worth today - did my penance. Will run a follow-up this week, quotes and all.

Nope, the Angler didn't close until 2004, well into the Internet heydey. That was my only local fly shop and I really liked the place and the guys in there. I think some of its issues was that it was difficult to get to, hardly any parking, and you had to cast rods in the parking lot off Congress.

What no one has mentioned is that fly shops, like most specialty shops, sort of hang their hat on having high-quality gear and personal service. That was fine when there was nothing but high-quality fly fishing gear available but after the movie and the Internet, everyday people started getting into it that didn't want to spend that kinda money. Then there was this huge influx of lower-cost options, and I think some of the people who would've frequented a fly shop started going the other route too. When one of those new customers would go into the shop, they'd get a sticker shock and then I don't know if they'd get the warmest welcome. Then the elitist attitude got associated. I remember when I was first starting (and sometimes still) feeling that I don't belong in some fly shops.

Seems like it's kind of natural for specialty shops to suffer this phenomenon. Fly shops like Living Waters that do well know to make it as much as an everyman's experience as they can with attitude and varied products, and still be a specialty shop. Sportsman's Finest in west Austin carries mostly high-end stuff and is in a well to do area. They could easily have gone the elitist route, but they're very helpful, welcoming, and qualified.

GSlayer: Backwoods has never quoted anyone $500 for special order shipping on anything. That is ridiculous. We don't even charge shipping on special ordered kayaks. Perhaps you misunderstood whomever was trying to help you. If you purchased a Bote Flood inflatable board from us, yes, there are slots for 3 fins, but it only comes with the center fin. It clearly states that on Bote's website. I am sorry that you do not care for Backwoods, but please do not spread inaccurate information about us. Thank you.

Sorry, my followup to this was delayed by things! Let me get that out in the next few minutes - the photos of the store anyway!

Okay, Finished my story. But for those of you not prone to visit the Texas Fly Caster website, (and for the good graces of TFF!) here's how it starts:

Having been informed that Backwoods Fort Worth had indeed been reborn, I did my duty and went in to apologize at the rumors I spread of their demise. Of course, who could have known the store has reopened under new ownership IF IT WAS NEVER EVEN ANNOUNCED?

I found the new Backwoods digs (1013 Foch St, Fort Worth, TX 76107) to be a bit cozy, but I was encouraged by the move of the fly fishing area to near the front of the store, and much of that pricey clothing shifted to the back ...




It's complimentary reading for the rest of the day at:
Backwoods Fort Worth Follow Up

I been fly fishing my entire life and I'm still not comfortable in fly shops.

And I forgot ... have you been to Tailwaters yet? About as comfortable as it gets IMO.

Actually YES,,, backwoods in ft worth did quote me out 500$ for shipping. Your sales man "did not want me to buy other models than what he had in stock". I am not spreading rumors and lets make this clear,,,i did NOT buy a inflatable bote board from you it was the hard model flood that was susposed to come with 3 fins. I know cause i called you after i got home and found out i only had one. I know cause i called the bote warehouse and even then yall acted like it was my problem. You wasnt even polite knowing yall was the ones in fault,,,some customer service. Your sales man even gave me a generic part that didnt even goes to the board just to be an @$$.And even then he was like "if you want it you have to come and get it" rudely over the phone- couldnt even ship it to me even though i offered to pay shipping. Oh btw i tell everybody my experience with yall, wich is alot. Im an very avid fisherman and outdoorsman and i do talk. Cheers!

Oh and there was other people with me on the floor and they can also attest and also the other customers there watching- you put yourselves in that position nobody else did. And you have the nerve saying im making a false claim,,,shame on you. Sounds like your only in it for your own personal gains- im not saying this to benefit me. Im saying this cause its true and as a reputable business you should of done what was right to begin with. Admit your faults man,,,dont call somebody a liar in public it just makes you look small and very unprofesional as a business or business leader

GSlayer, I still find it unbelievable that any of my sales associates would have ever quoted someone $500 in shipping and, even if they did, I find it unbelievable that any reasonable person would take that as a credible quote. I am sorry if you choose to interpret that as me calling you a liar.

I cannot help every single customer that walks into my store and I cannot look over the shoulder of all of the members of my team. However, I can help every customer that asks to speak with me when they have a reasonable complaint that they are not getting good service from the members of my team. Had you asked to speak with me, I assure you that I would have taken care of everything for you and I likely would have offered you something more for your inconvenience. Unfortunately, you did not give me the opportunity to do that at that time and are now here badmouthing me personally and my store in a public forum. At that time, I could have apologized to you, addressed the issue of poor customer service with the sales associate the you were dealing with, had the appropriate fin box from Bote expressed shipped to your home, and I could have offered you a discount on your original purchase for your inconvenience.

As someone who has worked in the service industry for over 25 years, I highly recommend that everyone who is unhappy with the service that they are receiving in a retail establishment, restaurant, or whatever kind of business, ask to speak to the manager right then and there. That is the only way that you will ever get what you feel that you deserve, that the business can properly apologize for and address the source of the issue, and that a solution can be found to remedy the problem so that everyone has the opportunity to be happy at the end of the day.

By the way, here is the link to Bote's website for both versions of the Flood which GSlayer purchased from Backwoods. You can see that, while the shorter version does have spaces for 3 fins, it clearly indicates that the center fin is included, but the 2 smaller ones are not.

https://www.boteboard.com/products/catalog/botes/flood/

Thats funny actually how your posting something thats been changed over the last couple yrs from botes website till now. Even when i purchased the second board from them they "the dealer sent me 5 fins" cause thats what the board called for. And either way the apologys dont mean nothing when they have something contradicting each one. It dont matter now. Good luck with your new location, i really do wish you well!

Ahmen to that last paragraph for sure. A....take a look yourself too when leaving help us help you. B....who did you talk too drives me nuts I don't know who ever answered. Did you ask for a manager or owner? I've got A guy who is mildly schizophrenic that works for me and he will answer the phone if it rings I try and grab it from him. but if you don't askto talk to a manager I don't know what he might tell you to tell you everything is free today. Don't get me wrong he's one of my best employees and fantastic help and has worked for me for years. But you could shoot me before I would have him handle a problem with a customer! I have not been able to make it down to the new store but I hope to soon glad to see the flyfishing stuff is in the front now. Hope you really do well! Gslayer I can promise wether it was them or any other service Industry type of operation promise you you will have much more success just staying calm and getting a manager's opinion before dealing with anybody under that because it is hard to find good help these days then that's an understatement. Yet everyone I have ever dealt with it Backwoods has been very pleasant but if I had a complaint I would definitely asked to speak to a manager and take care of it and I'm sure you might've come up with a much different resolution to your problem but nonetheless good luck and God bless

I'd say retail generally does have a hard time finding good help, and maybe (returning to the ground from this hijacking) that is a huge factor in the demise of brick-and-mortar as well? A good retail sales person first needs good training. A great retail sales person needs great training. I consider my retail training to be "old school" - ie. as good as it gets. Fly Shops listening? I'll send you a .pdf of my resume' on request! Funny thing is, no fly shop ever takes me up on that threat! I've even volunteered to man the counter at shops during the Christmas season ... still no takers. Hmmm, I better sniff my armpits more often ...

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but those clouds look fake!

I have read, pondered, and reread this post now several times with particular interest in the comments regarding Backwoods in Fort Worth. So that I may give the reader some context, I will tell you that I have been fly fishing local Fort Worth waters since 1992. I have been shopping at Backwoods since 1986 for Philmont expeditions and for almost all of my gear needs since. I even have Lifa, Patagonia, and North Face gear all made in the USA from the early days of the store. For those who remember, the legendary customer serviceman, Joel, was the associate at the time. He was much beloved among Fort Worth outdoors enthusiasts and is fondly remembered. Sadly, Joel passed away at a young age due to complications with cancer.

A prior poster in this thread mentioned being followed around and pressured into high cost gear. My now 20+ year fly fishing shopping experience with the store reads similarly to that poster's. Now two decades of frequenting the store as my primary fly shop, I am still badgered about where I am fishing, what trips do I have planned, etc etc. It is true that all I ever need in there are flies. The same ones now for 20+ years. About a year ago, they seemed unable to regularly stock these flies. So, I ordered online. I grew to learn that the problem was with the store having financial problems and were struggling with viability. Fair enough. I know that someone who just buys flies isn't likely going to suddenly spend a fortune on gear upgrades. In fact, seasoned fly fishermen rarely need to spend large because they have learned how to nourish their habit efficiently.

I have visited the new store. I like it. I am glad they have been able to stay running to serve us flyfishermen. I admit, I don't have stories of my trips to Patagonia or to Battenkill or to private waters in Wyoming. I don't need new flyfishing costume wear. All I need are a few clousers, some poppers and some wooly buggers. For those that know me on TFF and personally, you know I flyfish 4-5 days a week. After 20+ years of shopping with Backwoods, I introduced myself for the 200th time. Yes, Stephen I have been here before. Yes Stephen, I fly fish a lot. Yes Stephen, I know what I'm doing. No Stephen, I am not going on a trip. I'll see you in a few months, we can act like we have met for the first time all over again.

Mateo Clemente

No wonder you're so uncomfortable in fly shops! Heck, just book a few of those trips and they'll leave you alone again ... for awhile ... BTW - our Wednesday trip is strictly "Don't Ask Don't Tell!"

Hmmmm wonder what trip this is.....

Check out the "Guide Report" ... fun comes in all sizes!

The brick & mortar story is making the network news these days. This morning I heard -
-- about 1700 retail store locations will close this year
-- malls were overbuilt starting in the 1970's at 2X population growth
-- 85% of retail sales are still brick & mortar
-- Amazon gets 45% of all online retail sales (WOW!)
-- There is agreement that; for success in brick & mortar retail, the retailers have to offer something "more" like supporting YouTube videos, frequent shopper discounts - basically a REASON to shop there (other than charming personalities).
I ONLY HOPE RETAIL FLY SHOPS ARE READING or watching the news.

It's not just retail stores either. A lot of companies are moving to work from home alternatives for their employees. My employer cut down 3 full floors of space this year by letting us work from home 3 days a week and rotating us in and out of the office. That was close to 100 employees per floor probably 7k sqft per floor; and that's was just the Dallas office. They did they same across the nation and almost every employer in my industry has been doing the same over the past few years.

So is it a good thing that happened at your company? As dangerous as driving in North Texas is, I bet a change like that saves lives. It probably helps the environment too. Working from home does take a lot of self discipline though! I know some OLD guys who kept their business locations just so they would have a place to go and open their mail.

yep its a good thing, for both the company and us employees. But since we are at home it probably leads us to do more online shopping.

Texas has too much reliance on Property Taxes for funding. It puts a huge burden on Landlords and ultimately Tenants. Commercial Property Taxes get paid no matter if a concern is having a good year or bad. It literally tips the scales to where businesses decide to cease operations. Income and or sales taxes are based on profitability or sales. Bad years, less gets collected. Property Taxes have become a detriment to our economy in this state. Most states funding systems are not structured like this.

That is somewhat true. Ag exemptions and land grants to State Universities (oil) consume a lot of potential base. In Denton, roughly 23% of our land mass is exempt from taxes, and if you live to 65? Guess what, your property tax is frozen. Do away with the property tax, and say hello to a State income tax. A million people a year are moving into Texas. $26-billion dollars was exported to Mexico last year from other countries. Heck, I'd be happy with only a million or so of that! What if the US's fraction (probably a huge fraction) of the $26-billon was taxed and spent here? Food for thought.

If you believe the retail space has issues try working for a newspaper.. the slow steady decline over the last 10 years is accelerating towards the inevitable end of the print publishing business. With little to no profit and no cost cutting left it will end.

It does not matter if what you do is important (in business) to the world in any way it will stop when there is no profit to keep it going.

Each and every one of us can only do what we have the resources to do.

There are two ways to ensure a funeral is well attended..

Leave a legacy of love and laughter...

Or leave owing a bunch of money