So, with all the Layoff Rumors at AAL.

How many of the 53 VP's will get booted out
of the THOUSANDS of workers???

Care to guess? current over/under is 2.

Repost!

Probably none... They'll get rid of the people that actually work, slowing everything down even more and killing what little bit of moral their employees have left. My guys are at AA Cargo everyday of the week so we've witnessed first hand what their past layoff strategies have done to the entire process, I cant imagine it being much worse...

Nope, not a repost at all, I was looking to hav a little fun with the
number of VP's that will get booted vs the number of "workers"
like me.

Care to guess?

or are you too busy playing REPOST POLICE to actually read the
post.

citizens arrest... citizens arrest!!!

Repost. Check the OT for original post.

So, just because you have worked your way up to the position of Vice President, you do not "work" and if you are one of the workers in the trenches you do "work". Interesting perspective.

Good question indeed....


The intent was.... AAL has ALWAYS had an excessive number of
Execs vs the other airlines out there.

87 thou employees and the company has 50 plus VPs all at
multi million dollar salaries.

The entire USA has 1.

AA has a huge "good ole boy club" within it Exec level.

While I am sure some do a fine job.... do they really
need 50 plus. Each with several layers of other directors
and managers (sometimes 6 or 7 layers) of managers before reaching the worker level.

Watch and see how many MANAGERS are let go. Very few I bet.

The point here is the keep laying off the people that do the hands on work, that actually make the airline work. The supervisors and "VP" types just walk around aimlessly in their slacks and sweater vests looking like they are doing something...without the "grunts" the place comes to a stand still regardless of how many VP and or supervisors they have yet AA continues to cut the hands on employees and keep the upper management.

Few, if any, executives at this company have EVER 'worked the trenches'. Most mid-level managers are hired from within, but do not possess the education necessary to be considered as a VP.

Sadly, the majority of execs at Bankrutcy Air don't know HOW to do the jobs of the people they 'manage' or why many of the jobs are done in the first place.

At other, more professional companies, most executives have some rudimentary knowledge of the work their employees do. Not the case at this place.

They dont need to know how to do it. There's a place for all types, to say mangers haven't actually touch cargo or worked a check in desk so they don't no chit is dumb. There's no freebies they worked hard to get where they are at. It's all about cost

MM, if one doesn't know how the work gets done, how does one manage employees? How would one determine whether or not they're doing a good job or a poor job without knowing what the job is and how to do it?

This applies to all business owners and managers: if you own a convenience store, a pizza place, an air-conditioning repair company, an accounting firm or an airline, you gotta know what your employees are doing and how they get things done.

I work for a major airline.

Most of the highest level management team are either lawyers or CPAs.

That said...it is very different than at AA.

When I worked for American, I never saw any of the management team at the training center. At my company now, the CEO refers to me by my first name. AA VPs would not even consider such a thing.

I think the point is the VPs or suits had the job of making the airline profitable and a viable ongoing concern. It was their job to define the direction of the company and develop and execute a plan....and they obviously failed. So, they should be terminated/laid off just like other folks who may not have failed at their particular job at all.

I think that is where he was going. Nobody hates VPs just because they are VPs. They are disliked because they were not good at their job of leadership.

^^^^ 100% correct

I agree but we had 9/11 and American fought hard. It's an industry that is transitioning and it's do to the economy not the vps

In the spirit of the thread I'll take the under

Oh yeah, I'll say 2 VPs get shown the door - and neither of them will have had any part in the poor decision making of the past decade, they'll just be the lowest seniority VPs

Don't be suprised that as business units get compacted you see more VPs shown the door. I agree that they have failed miserably and should probably be chitcanned, but they can't fire them all and just start over. that would be worse than where they are now.


The idea that every CEO or C level executive would know how each employee under their responsibility does their job is a nice idea in fantasy land, or in a company of 25, but isn't even close to realistic anywhere else.

You think generals in the military know every detail of every mission and outpost under their command? that's why you put people in place you trust to do their job managing.

I can't stand the thoughts that vp's don't do any work and that the "hands on trench" workers run the company. Everyone has a place. I'm not defending the results that the AA execs have produced, but to say they do nothing but walk around in a suit is stupid. Are you honestly telling me that you could go grab Joe the baggage handler off the Tarmac and put him in-charge of the finances and he would do so much better cause "he really works." that's BS.

And like I said in the other post. Off all the pending layoffs there was at least one job added as I was hired by AA on Monday.

Really? Transitioning? The Airline business has been in transition since deregulation. It's a failure in management not the economy. Pan-Am, Eastern, TWA, all gone. and many others. Due to poor management.

Forgot about Braniff!

Not to hi-jack this post but my wife works for AA and they are notifying employees that insurance rates are going to be more that doubling.

Really!!

So why would they not cut a benefit like not flying their employees anywhere they want to fly for little to no dallars instead of taking away life needed benefits!!

AA just @#&$@^#$^!.

I cant speak for anything beyond the cargo end of it, but I've seen it first hand with my own 2 eyes. GO talk to some of the people in the trenches and see how it really works at AA. If you've been hired by AA you will soon find out for yourself how horrible of an operation it really is, how lazy everyone is, and how many people do next to nothing all day long. Obviously a baggage handler cant handle the finances, but what happens when more baggage handlers lose their job and the plane cant be unloaded in the required amount of time? Or when a customer that spent $4k to have a hot shipment air freighted and the airline takes 3 extra hours breaking down the flight and cant meet their time commitments thus costing the ultimate customer that just spent $4k on the shipping an additional $10k per hour while they have a line down waiting on parts. As they continue to miss their commitments more and more customers seek other airlines to handle their high priority shipments... Tons of this happened the last time they laid off, I have 3 shippers that refuse to use AA anymore as a result... combined they spend over $2 million a year on airfreight, now another airline is reaping the benefits of AA's incompetence. More shippers will follow if the time frame slows more, which I am going to assume will most certainly happen after the next round of layoffs. It sucks, but the truth of the matter is there are way to many chiefs at AA and not enough Indians.

Wife just text me and the number is 13k to be laid off

How many of those are from lil Eagle??

Don't know yet. Goal is to cut cost by 2 billion. 15% management

Middle mgmt is gonna take a hit.... they are not part of the AAL good ole boys club.

The question was-

HOW MANY VP's WILL GET THE AX?

over/under is still 2

My sister retired from AA a few years ago. She worked at HQ.

You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that went on there with upper mgmt.

It's no wonder they are in the crapper.

I can see it now on the ramp....bag tag says LAX, Ooops..chunk it on a EWR flight.

I'm taking the under....

In the past they have justified the bonus' as needed to "keep the talent" from defecting to other jobs. I'm sure lay-offs will work the same way.

This is the same probelm as GM experienced. Until they got an outsider in there they had no chance of any significant change.

I work in a different industry but they are doing the same thing. They just keep cutting and expecting the worker bees to take on more and more responsibility and we are making more and more costly mistakes.

At some point it can't be cost effective.......

Nail hammer head! I've seen it first hand, spend money on a multi million dollar project that fails. Is that person fired? Nope, but a few months down the road a handful of employees are let go to make us leaner and meaner :rollseyes:

53 vps is 52 too many.AAs problem is clearly too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Awww unionism. One step below socialism.

Sorry couldn't help myself. I just got done listening to our union president.

I heard that AA plans to shut down the maintance facility in Ft.Worth. They mentioned that there's a possibility they will outsource the maintance work to other countries for cheaper labor costs. That's messed up!!!

Yes,sure is and will result in more cancellations and delays and Aircraft Reliability issues. No ownership in the companies fleet leads to poor performance.

I have friends at that facility

Maybe people should start looking for solutions instead of looking for people to blame in this country

Some AA flight attendants work only a few flights a year and let other people have their runs. They do this and work elsewhere so they can keep the employees health benefits. They have too many employees, not only at the top, but over all.

More like $10k per minute for me. But we don't use AA. If it is hot enough we will go with a private jet charter, but that usually means a planner is getting fired.

I think unions have a role in this mess.

Rumor has it that folks that have worked for AA 30 years and more can kiss their pension goodbye. Very sad.

odds are that those pensions will be covered by the pension insurance group. It has a real name, but I can't recall.

Again, yes execs need to be fired for the lack of performance. i am sure there are a ton of lower level employees that are just wasted dollars too.

I have never understood how the airline industry works. Every airline save for Southwest seems to lose several hundred million dollars every quarter, and they do this for years. How do they stay in operation? It's not like they had a huge stash of cash that they are digging into as they continue to lose this money. I understand there banks that offer them credit, but in total we are talking hundreds of billions. With no chance of profits in sight.

At least they now fly full planes. I can remember flights back in the early 90's that might have 8-10 people on board. That was a common occurrence for many of my flights. These weren't flights to Potlatch, TN either these were flight to DC from DFW. I was on a flight from DFW to San Francisco and it had a best 20 people on it. If they would just cut these nonprofitable flights they could save millions. What do I know? I always assumed that to make money you had to bring in more than you spent.

From the NPR website....

American Airlines filed for bankruptcy in November. The company needs $18.5 billion to cover its pension promises to current and former employees, but it has only set aside $8.3 billion.

Taxpayers could wind up on the hook for billions. Here's why.


American Airlines is asking the bankruptcy court for permission to drop its pension plans. If the court allows that, the plans will be taken over by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp, a government agency that takes over pension plans for failed companies.

The PBGC works like an insurance company. Firms that are backed by the PBGC pay premiums to the agency. Those premiums are supposed to pay for the agency's costs, so taxpayers don't have to pay. But in recent years the premiums haven't been enough — the agency's funding shortfall is currently $26 billion.

President Obama has proposed raising the premiums companies pay to PBGC, to make up the shortfall. But big business groups oppose any increase.

Yep. I see a direct correlation to Union workers in the Auto industry, i.e. GM and AA. Union bargaining, drives the pay up to the point of failure. Well Hello, cheap Chinese workers....

Airlines, contrary to popular myth do not run a huge profit margin.

I can't see the sarcasm font here so I don't know if you are serious. But I believe you are correct that Unionism and Socialism are at least close.

Free market, free enterprise. The only way to go. The Industrial era is long gone, no one needs unions anymore. RE: GM Chrysler, and now AA.

"Free market, free enterprise."

Freedom for workers to organize.

Fixed it for you.

Oh YEAH! Those evil unions at AAL 8 years ago gave back over
30 percent in wages/vacations/productivity to help get AA
competetive again.

And for that we were promised to keep the pensions.

We agreed on a new contract TA the "Day Before" AMR filed.
Yup, the TWU and AMR had agreed on a new pay/benefits
package the DAY BEFORE THE FILING that included all those
folks U see out on the ramp, plus the dispatchers/mechanics.

We went 8 years without any raise to retain the
pensions while DL/UA/CO/SW pay scales passed us by
in hourly pay, at their post Ch11 payscales.

AAL employees have some of the lowest cost in the industry
with the exception of the pension. When you add the pension
back into the pay package AMR costs per ground employee are
still less.

AMR was unable to make an agreement with the pilots so it FILED.

AMR is now using this to kill the TA we had agreed on. Eliminate
13000 employees by outsourcing all the ramp jobs to $10.00/hr
temp workers with NO INSURANCE/NO PENSIONS/NO HOLIDAY PAY/NO OVERTIME PAY.

AMR is trying to slash our pay to well below 2003 levels- well below UA/DL/CO/SW and eliminate the
pensions also.

ALL THE WHILE THE EXEC STAFF HAS EVERY YEAY REWARDED THEMSELVES
(the top 500 managers) HUNDERDS OF MILLIONS IN BONUSES.

Back in 2003 AMR had only 1 billion in cash reserves, 2012 AMR
has over 4.1 Billion in cash reserves??? How does that happen
and AMR still allowed to FILE BANKRUPTY???

Oh, and now you WILL be paying for my pension when AMR
forces it into the PBGC. Enjoy paying your higher fed taxes.
While the EXECS will ride off into the sunset padding their
pockets with further HUNDREDS of MILLIONS.

I hope your company doesn't depend on business with the evil
union workers that are about to loose jobs. It's going to
trickle through the local economy here in N TX especially
those businesses that have opened up around Alliance airport.
Same thing for the Tulsa airport in OK.

4000 plus highly skilled mechanics are kicked out on the
street while those jobs are going to Mexico or Carib Islands
where the labor costs are 75-90 percent lower. Where 1
FAA licensed mechanic may oversee 300-500 workers that may
have been picking apples the day before.

What I am suspecting- short term, AMR has filed and will
attempt to strip labor costs to below JetBlue/AirTran costs.

Then sell to another airline in ATL or PIT. AMR Execs
award themselves hundreds of millions in bonuses to
going thru CH11 successfully and finding a buyer.

AAL in DFW will cease to exist. Most of the 25 THOUSAND AAL
employees will loose jobs and it's going to ripple thru the
local economy. Many of those places around DFW will suffer
or close. Grapevine will be hit hard, Flowermound, the MidCities
will suddenly have thousands of houses to futher dilute home
prices and hurt everyone.

It's hard to go out of fri/sat nites when you only make $10.00
to 15.00/hr. And out of that you try to buy insurance, put you
kids thru college. Put a roof over your head.

Down in Mexico, they are whooping it up with the jobs we just gave em. Yearly raises of a few pesos goes along way there!

Oh, on the good side... No longer need a Wright Agreement
argument. SWA will be moving to DFW away frm DAL. Dang,
more local business go out of business there while a few
relocate to the DFW area.

Me.... I will retire back to Al. I can live nicely off my
$3000.00/mo from the PBGC via YOUR TAXES. And my
Soc Sec if it's still around. Sit in my doublewide
have a beer or two, and watch the TIDE on TV. Hopefully
live a long life annoying the Grandkids and dodging
tornadoes. Forced to live on YOUR TAX DOLLARS, by the
greed of a few Execs at AMR.

Slamming those evil unions at AMR? Just wow!!!

Can't argue with the mind of a unionite...it's like talking to a door

This can't all be laid at the unions feet nor is it all on mgmt. Each side take a big part in what happened.

it does sound like union busting

Industry wide, unions have exerted pressure on the airlines themselves.

I know among the pilot group, my company has the highest pay for narrow body drivers in the industry. A captain can easily make $230-240K without hustling very hard at all. Why so much. Only one answer there....unions.

Trust me, in todays airline industry, there are more than enough qualified pilots that $130K the company could get more than enough qualified applicants.

Even today, labor costs are a relatively small percentage of the company's overall operating costs. The wild card for all airlines is the cost of fuel. You see wild swings in fuel prices that are not reflected in the cost of a ticket.

Government has stepped in and allowed bankrupt companies to continue to operate. The result is there is too much competition. As a result, profit margins are razor thin. An airplane full of people might only be turning a couple of hundred dollars profit. Only one or two passengers choosing a different airline might make the difference between making money and losing money.

Sniper,

You mentioned good ole boys club referring to the VP's same goes for the unions.

Poor past business decisions lead to poor future business decisions.

Rolling with the economic flow does not happen on may levels.

What about all the past pensions that were cut? Retired employees feeling the crunch as well.

Anyone smell class envy???

Folks sure are worried about what others are doing...

You are just mad cause your college football team(s)in Ga. SUCK!

Yep. Entitlement state. Gimmee.

I wouldn't know....I have no interest in football.

And that being true, the customer experience is more than likely enough of a factor to make that difference and more! Listening AA?

No real worries for me. AAL would have to shutdown for me
to get fired. So I work a few more days for the same pay.
Again no big deal.

It's other employess at AAL, those they are trying to lay off
that I feel for.

My pension will be the same because it falls under the max
allowed by the PBGC. Only difference is the check is going
to be paid by the GOVT (that would be you) vs the company
that agreed to provide it when I hired in 20Yrs ago. If you read my post, and I apoligize if it wasn't clear. AMR had
already agreed to a new contract with the TWU that was fair
and allowed AMR to be competetive in the market (AMR's words not mine). What my point was is that AMR is now trying to slash jobs/benefits via CH11
and dump it on the taxpayers (thats you).

Are you ok with that? Are you happy to pay my pension while AMR execs ride off into the sunset?

Class envy? Pffft.

http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/6892728/Re_AMR_goes_Chapter_11#Post6892728

Most of your points are listed here if you want to copy/paste them again.

we should just all live in corp supplied housing and eat nothing but rice, because whats good for corp is good for the american citizen. we should just trust that they are going to deal with us in a fair way.
unions arent driving business out. slave labor is what is pulling our jobs out, not unions. a chinese worker building iphones makes $17 per day, no benefits, lives with 8k other workers, 10 per room, at the factory. called up 24/7, no OSHA, no protection at all.
cant compete with that without tarifs

See above statement. Don't fool yourself. Have seen the like, all they care for is themselves. You care for no one but you.

Nothing wrong with a ramp rat making $10 an hour. It's not rocket science feeding a gorilla a 100 bags every hour in a metal tube for lunch, or driving a steam roller down the tarmac for 8 hours a day.

I feel for the affected employees and glad I left the industry in 1994. The main reason I left DL was after 10 years, your salary had hit the cap. Back then after 10, you received what they called "additional longevity pay" each year. That amount was $2 dollars added each year to your check. I made it to 15 years, my last 2 were in DL's tower at DFW with same pay in effect.

Soggy bottom unrealistic expectations from unions has driven plenty of businesses out of the US and out of certain states into others.

Unions did some good things 50 years ago...they shoot themselves and their members in the foot now days.

why dont they just hire illegals to work the tower?

They will probably be forced to pretty soon by a union the way it's going in the US. Probably have to pay them $50 an hour whether or not they can speak English...

Why is it that only one tango partner out of two that was at the labor negotiation table being demonized?

Why doesn't management just say NO to the union? And then deal with that consequence?









btw, I don't care one way or another about unions.

There is no solution for public companies. First you must delist company throw out the union and run the company as a private co. These types of things happen all the time for public companies. Execs need to have their feet held to the fire and need to be taught every day that their paycheck is earned on the blood sweat and tears of the field employees and to act accordingly. Look at it this way when someone earns 7 figures a year they could care less where the money comes from or how long the job will last they will ride it to the end.


So they hired 1 hmmmmm must be hatchet man.

a managers main job is to remove obstacles so their teams can preform to standard or above

I have no interest in reading this entire thread, but I think I get the jist of the topic from Sniper's posts and from things I've heard on the radio today...

What I want to know, is why, to a certain segment of the population, do layoffs make a company evil? It's business.

Lol. Almost all millionaires in this nation did not inherit it. Don't be jealous just be the best

I agree with the rest though

Folks think companies should pay them 4 times what their skills are worth, keep them on forever even if they do a crappy job or how bad the economy gets...

Isn't that in the union bylaws? Sure sounds like their mantra.

But isn't it upper managements job to manage effectively. And when that has failed why are the people that failed in the first place the ones that are given the golden parachutes. You get paid that kind of money your head should roll if you fail.

eggsactly

Hasn't almost every airline filed bankruptcy?

Except for SWA

The only certain thing is this is a sad deal. I feel sorry for those affected.

Sometimes I think it might be good to occasionally punish your kid at random for no reason at all in preparation for the realities of life.

Ya it's easy manage cost in this economy. Fuel, labor all the other airport stations all while still be competitive and dealing with BS unions. If they fire all the mangers they would really be up the creek.

When costs exceed revenues companies file for bankruptcy. Management or unions to blame? Who knows although I can’t think of any union run companies. If unions could do it better I would think we’d have a plethora of them.

American airlines is not so American anymore. Is it true that they are sending the many things over seas?

And if you look closely the same High ranking execs are bouncing from Airline to airline and bringing their failed style of management with them. Think I am lying look around and see how many have moved from one to another. It is a good ol boys club and this is a big reason why airlines fail.

What things. They signed a mutlti billion dollar new fleet deal about 6 months ago with Boeing

Disagree. Airlines were fine until 9/11 and fuel cost

WRONG....Pan Am, TWA , Eastern, Continental to name a few all failed prior to 9-11 and 3 of those 4 are GONE. Do your homework. Airlines have been misrun since deregulation.

My homework?? Do you know how big of an industry it is? Of course there were bankrupcys in the last 40 years. So you saying there is no impact from 9/11 it's all the same. Lol

I have every idea how big it is, I have worked it for over 25 years. Been thru a layoff a pay cut or two. Have friends and family in the business as well. But you come off like 9-11 was the end all for the airlines... you are nuts. Mismanagement has long been a problem of the Airlines.... Frank Lorenzo, Carl Ichan? United's ESOP plan? Fuel charges just added to an already tight budget.

I take it after 25 years your not in management and mad

ZING

Nope. Not mad at all. My Choice not to be in management. If I wanted to go into management would mean transferring to a city where I refuse to live. I chose family life quality over life in a hell hole of a city. I am as far as I can go in my job with out moving. And happy where I am at right now. But your cop out shows your lack of knowledge in the issue.

There is some truth to this statement but it's seems nowadays you can't do enough work to satisfy companies. They always want more and in the this job market they just look at you and say if you don't like it go get a job somewhere else.

Both sides are greedy. The company is greedy and the union is greedy. Normally a compromise is in order. Whoever has the upper hand at the time sticks it to the other guy. Sad.

Where unions get it wrong is they protect bad workers and under their system the gap in pay between the most skilled workers and the least skilled workers is not wide enough. This encourages workers to do the easiest jobs because the pay is basically the same.

Well Pan Am failed due to rising fuel costs from the Gulf War in 91 and the fact it was still recovering from the Lockerbie bombing. Continental also went bankrupt due in large part to the high fuel prices from the Gulf War. I wouldn't blame the management for forces outside their control impacting their company.

Cop out? You blane management I do not

I worked for Continental and it was mismanagement. Frank Lorenzo ring a bell? He drove both Eastern and Continental into failure. And Continental went Twice under Lorenzo's hand. Continental was once a great airline until he took control.

I had not seen until a few minutes ago that AA is trying to get out of all four of the pension plans it has.

If the pilots end up in PBGC...that's not good.

pensions

I don't care if you worked for Continental. That doesn't make you right. They went bankrupt in the recession in the early 80's.
Second bankruptcy was when gas prices went high in the early 90's. Looks like Continental tried to expand at the wrong time. I wouldn't classify that as mismanagement as much as bad luck and bad timing.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1888946_1888944_1888942,00.html

100% correct. Whats worse is that pay is based almost exclusively on seniority no matter how good or bad a given worker is. I've commented before that if the company had simply focused on eliminating the bad employees, the remaining workers are productive enough to do the job and get paid what they're really worth.

The union priority unfortunately is to maximize the number of workers, not to optimize pay. They get union dues based on how many people are working, so its in the unions interest to negotiate more workers at lower pay rates.

Management is SUPPOSED to focus on operating a profitable airline. Instead they focus on grabbing market share at almost any cost. This has been their failure for over 20 years, and it hasn't changed.

unions wheel and deal employees on a daily basis

Let's not kid ourselves. How long were these flights grounded after 9/11 2 days? These companies lined up for bailouts because they were wining and crying that those two days of being grounded would cause bankruptcy. Really? So the companies are so poorly mismanaged they can't lose 2 days of income? What about years when they run profit, they don't set it aside for a rainy day like those of us without govt. safety nets do? The decision makers should have been fired then!

You can't really be dumb enough to think that the two days of being grounded was the only effect that 9/11 had on the airline industry.

Nice to meet you, tks for the kind words internet stranger. No reason to get all hostile because you disagree with me and call me stupid. Perhaps something is missing in your life....

Here's an article for you, funding approved in just under 3 weeks. http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-21/us/re...rriers?_s=PM:US

My point is that the airline industry suffered because many people chose not to fly after 9/11. The two days after 9/11 did hurt the companies but not nearly to the degree that lost business over the next several years did. Anyways, sorry for being rude, I just thought you came across strong also.