Average # for a ball player and wouldnt be hall material, But those # as a catcher are well above average. His average is less but his # per year are better than Pudge and everyone thinks he will get in the hall...Why would pudge make it and posada wouldnt? Pudge only played 4 years longer and is making himself look silly by poor performance. If Pudge makes it in, Posada has to...Helping your team to Championships helps as well.

i hate the spankies

you ever see pudge play. He made Posada look like a little leaguer.

johnny bench was by far the best catcher ever

I never thought Pudge was bad, but not head and shoulders above Posada...Of course Pudge was ging to bat 2nd in a lineup of teams that...Umm, werent very good. Posada, with the same numbers almost wasnt going to bat early in yankees lineup because they have always had better bats..and btw, Posada was batting 5-6 just a few years ago.

Posada did NOT have "almost" the same numbers as Pudge. When Pudge was in his prime he would have been at the top of ANY lineup in baseball. Maybe you should go check the stats again...

Pudge the only remaining active player to play in the old

Arlington Stadium? Jamie Moyer?? He still playing?

Pete Incavigilia is getting in game shape as we speak.

Posada did NOT have "almost" the same numbers as Pudge. When Pudge was in his prime he would have been at the top of ANY lineup in baseball. Maybe you should go check the stats again...

Pudge would have probably hit fifth, and he was a far superior defensive catcher. Posada probably actually calls a better game, but his pitchers for the most part were a hell of alot better than anything Texas trotted out.

Im not taking anything away from Pudge, I loved watching him play, I just get tired of people who think because it was the Rangers it had to be the best, His # per game arent any better than Posada, a little worse actually, so If Posada is batting 7th, why would Pudge bat 5th. Cano batted 5th this year and No way would pudge bat 5th, 6th maybe. I hate the yankees with a passion, but I still have to give players on any team credit for what they accomplished..Pudge was a star on the Rangers, but he wouldnt have been on the yankees..The yankees have always bought too much talent.

Neither has HOF # as ball players, they would only get in because of thier # as catchers. They both played the game like it should be played.

Pudge was a better defensive catcher.

Some seem to have that attitue. I agree 100% on how he was when he was playing well..Im just saying his # over a career arent any better. They didnt pitch around Pudge though, He only has a little over 500 walks in 21 seasons, todays great batters get 500 over 5 seasons.

I do think Pudge will get in, and deserves it, and it doesnt seem Posada was top tier, I agree...but until the last 5 years, how many catchers were. Varitek for the Sox was good, Martinez...but most were just 2 year wonders like Soto or Martin. There arent many catchers who were MVP, Berra and Bench. I give him a lot of credt for being the MVP in 2003, especially since his team sucked and was a last place team. that doesnt happen very often when a crappy team produces an MVP.

I would have never posted that If i hadnt looked 1st, so you shouldnt look at the totals for a career and do some math.

Pudge played in 21 full seasons, Posada actually played in 15 because he only played 9 games his 1st 2 years on the team. Pudge has 3500 more at bats and 714 more games. Pudge has a better batting average, 24 points.. Posada had a better on base percentage, Posada has a better Slugging Percentage, Pudge was slightly better at hits, 1 every 3.37 at bats where Posada has 1 hit every 3.66 at bats. Posada had a home run every 22 at bats where Pudge hada Homer every 30 at bats. Posada took a walk every 2 games, Pudge took a walk every 5 games almost. Pudge Averaged just over 14 Homers a season, posada averaged a little over 18, Both were close on fielding Percentage, pudge has the edge with a .993 where Posada was a .992....Those are facts

If posada would have had 3500 more at bats, he would have had more homers, more runs, more hits than Pudge...This is an opinion.

The Actual # per game and Per at bat are really close, there is no head and shoulders difference.

Pudge wouldnt have batted 3rd or 4th on the yankees either because the yankees has better players where the early Rangers didnt.

Oh yeah, I forgot...Posada has 4 rings

Batting average dont win ball games, runs scored and RBI wins games..Even Pudge best year, he batted .347, scored 66 Runs and had 83 RBI. Posada only had a .281 average a year, but had 17 more runs scored and 18 more RBI. Pudge was a great hitter in his prime, but his # per at bat still arent better. In pudges prime he averaged the same in Runs as posada did, and near 20 less RBI a year on average. Because of the walks Posada was on base more than Pudge.

Im not saying pudge wasnt a better all around player, Im saying overall he wasnt in another league..cant look at just the stats you want to look at, look at them all.

George Brett batted a .314 one year and only had 42 Runs scored and 43 RBI...Ill take Runs and RBI over average any day.

Even Pudge best year, he batted .347, scored 66 Runs and had 83 RBI. Posada only had a .281 average a year, but had 17 more runs scored and 18 more RBI.

Pudge only played 91 games that year! haha Imagine if pudge had played 61 more games that year like Posada did!

My point was, average dont mean runs or RBI. The hall dont vote on just someones Prime, they vote on career #, and those career # per at bat are close.

Pudge probably will go, but not sure about 1st ballet, there are a lot of better players that are still being shunned. Besides, if he keeps playing and keeps hitting .219 his 1st ballet surely wont happen.

Maybe Pudge would have had more RBi on the yankees, but he wasnt on that team.

I 100% agree Pudge would start and posada would be a backup to him, but some make it seem like the Difference between Nolan Ryan and Colby Lewis, when thier stats are really not far apart. Pudge was better defensivly, 1% on fielding, but he is also has about 60 more errors. I would rather have Pudge on Defense, on Offense, I want the guy who is getting on base more, walking more, hitting more in and scoring more.

Actually the dumb arguement is:

"You put Pudge on those Yankees teams and he KILLS Posada in RBIs and runs scored"

Why not just give Yadi Molina some speed and he will be better than both of them, how about we make mark reynalds not strike out 200 times a year and he will be baseballs best hitter.

No, the dumb argument is you comparing rbi's and runs scored from a year where pudge played in 60 less games!
Another dumb argument is saying Posada had 20 more rbi's per year. Thats absolutely not true. Plus, the number 2 spot in the lineup is not known as a big RBI spot.
Posada did draw more walks though, but that does not make him a better player.
Maybe you should look at the fact that Posada was a five time all star, 0 time gold glover, and five time silver slugger. Pudge was a fourteen time all star, 13 time gold glover, and seven time silver slugger.
Pudge playing past his prime won't hurt him. The voter's know baseball well enough to know that he is one of the greatest catchers of all time!

I like Posada but he was nowhere near the caliber of player that Pudge was.

What I meant was his best year for average, not his best year. I really wasnt comparing the same year, but trying to point out that average doesnt mean production by showing a .347 wasnt any better than a .268 something. btw, It wasnt 60 games, it was 108 games. Your correct, it wasnt 2o RBI a season more, Posada averaged 7 RBI a season played more.

As far as Silver slugger awards, 7 vs 5 is close.
Gold Gloves, since only 1 person at that position in that leage gets it, I would say its saying exactly what we all been saying, Pudge was a better defensive catcher, the 13 doesnt mean he was that much better, just means he was better that year for 13 years.

The all star part is a wash though for several reasons..1st a bad team who doesnt get any player voted in, gets 1 player to go regardless if he was voted in or not..That would be the best player on even a bad team. 2nd..There were not that many good hitting catchers, He deseved to be an all star 13 times, but his slightly better defense, good hitting and good player on some bad teams helped.

He was in the american league, the only time the #2 spot hurts RBI is in the 1st inning, as long as the pitcher dont have to bat all positions are RBI spots after the 1st 3 batters in the 1st inning.

Great for his era, but not one of the greatest.

Im seriously doubting HOF Entry anyway, Worthy, Probably, will get in, I doubt it. So far everyone that conseco has single out as doing Roids with has come forward and admitted it after denying it, or hasnt been voted in.

Conseco came to texas in 92, in 93 and 94 Pudges # for average went up, hits hits almost doubled, his homers almost doubled, his RBI almost doubled and his # of Doubles doubled and his stolen bases went up..Then in 2007 the Mitchell report came out and the following year conseco singled out players and wrote a book, Pudges # dropped all the way down to where they were when he started.

The hall is voted on by Writers and the Hall members who are mostly Old timers who respected the game. Im not saying he did Roids, Im saying the accusation is there by someone who was a clown, but was correct in the others he named, why would he name Pudge for no reason? The Hall voters can see the stats.

If pete rose gets in, and palmero...I think Pudge has a shot.

Pudge sure got smaller when the the Roids problems

surfaced..H.O.F ********

never accused was he?

Pudge Runs, homers and RBI jumped up a lot 93

Great stats, but also leads all catchers in Errors and passed balls.

[quote=WaterLogged]

Great stats, but also leads all catchers in Errors and passed balls./quote]

And Nolan Ryan leads all pitchers in walks you Jackwagon!!!

So what your saying is that he never had it figured out his 1st 3 years he played, but all of the sudden after 93 his power got better, His eyesight got better and he made more contact, got more hits to the point where his hits per season almost doubled, but at age 32 he lost all of that without gradually declining at 30, or 31? Im not just looking at Homers, i mean the guy is 5'9", hes not going to hit a ton of them.

As a catcher he was good for his time period, but If he was one of the greats his stats would show that.

His percentage of caught stealing is 45%...Thats 76th all time for catchers.

If He was a great hitter he should be compared to great hitters, not just great hitting catchers.

The Only thing that makes him a great catcher is that he was good at defense and good at offense, which is rare for catchers. He wasnt close to being the Best at either of them.

""Who had a better arm?""

apparantly 75 other catchers since hes ranked 76th all time in caught stealing stats.

""He would of been top ten easy if he retired earlier instead of dragging out his career""

Your crazy, show me anywhere when he was over 50% for throwing runners out, that what it would have taken to be in top 10.

""He is still ahead of Yadier Molina""

Yes he is, but less than 1%. Yadi has picked off more at 1st in 7.5 years that Pudge did in a career. Those arent counted as caught stealing so it isnt in that percentage.

""See the correlation?""

Yes, that is an awful lot of At bats for so few runs and RBI's. I mean for such a great hitter that is.

now really, He had over 50% on some of those years, but how many ball players retire at 30 after 11 seasons..where are the next 5 or 6 years that make up a normal career.

You are correct on the Pickoffs, What i looked at didnt start until 2001, I was wrong on that.

162 game average is a "might have been" stat he never played in 162, the only real stats are the actual # he has, not projections...He could have gotten hot or fell on his face...Projections arent facts

A couple of those rankings that go past 10 also list Posada as one of the greatest ever, 1 site ranks Pudge 6th and posada 12th, If your going to use that site as an accurate statement that Pudge is a Great one, You have to acept posada is on those lists, The ones that go past ten that is.

So how many runs do you deduct because a batter bats 2nd rather than 3rd, or 2nd rather than 1st..i mean Ricky Henderson batted 1st his whole career, 4 additional seasons from Pudge, but has just over 200 RBI Less.

""Yes he is. Its a fact. Not even opinion""

Exactly, Ok, so he is, but Your Excluding another catcher with Similar # on Offense, and although no where as good on Defense, still a great defensive catcher. Posada isnt as good as Pudge, but he was good enough to keep a starting job on the Yankees for 17 years, a team that would just go buy another player without hesitation if he wasnt. My arguement was never Posada was better or Pudge was better, Or whether one was great or not...Its If you classify someone as a great, you have to accept statistically another with good # that are comparable. Pudge was fantastic at throwing runners out, But if you look at Fielding %, Errors, Passed balls...How many steal attempts to make up that high percentage..and Pitchers are at fault many times being slow to the plate.

""The rangers had a pretty good lineup for part of pudges career.""

On paper, Great lineups win something, They make playoffs and hopefully win a Division Series.

To say pudge is in Top 10 all time I no arguement, but someone posted that he wasnt THE greatest ever, Not a chance. You still have to consider although Texas had a bad A$$ catcher, Other teams have catchers that are not as good, but still listed as great ones. This whole topic was about HOF and posada..If a Top 10 of over 1800 catchers deserves in, I would say a Top 25 of 1800 deserves in. Joe mauer is already listed as one of those greatest catchers.

3 or 4 of those sites have Mike piazza ranked ahead of pudge, and 2 others list him just 1 spot behind Pudge. But because your using those sites to prove rankings based on a writer, you are also saying piazza is a better catcher since he ranks higher? I figure since piazza isnt from Texas you will argue that point that he isnt in same league as pudge.

To say pudge is in Top 10 all time I no arguement,

Great for his era, but not one of the greatest.

Pudge/Posada comparison makes me laugh.

Pudge is no brainer HOF. The HOF is supposed to be for players who transcended the game, and that people went just to watch. How many times did people go to a Yankees' game just to see Jorge play?

He's good no doubt, but come on, HOF.

That said, when East Coast Media bias is involved, anything is possible.

Like most of his Latin teammates on the Rangers, Pudge was a HEAVY steroid user.

When HOF talk comes around, he's going to get dinged.