Hey guys, found this video on youtube shows some carp getting hooked while feeding underwater. Its a pretty cool video i think, but there is one thing that im hoping some of the more experienced carpers could shed some light on. In the beginning of the video you see four different fish come and suck up the hook bait and eject it immediately, then the fifth fish comes along and finally gets hooked. How would i prevent that from happening to me, why were the fish ejecting the hook/bait without getting hooked?

Video

that just happens...probably more than any of us know

Very glad you found this video because it shows what I said earier
Big carp ALWAYS seem to avoid getting hooked while they are taking the free offerings without any problems
The only thing you can do about it ( in my view) is start prebaiting up over a very long period of time WITHOUT FISHING IT!!!
Its called "the baiting pyramid "gougle it up MIKE WILSON had a nice articel about it
What happens is when you bait up smaller carp and bigger carp moove in and the bigger carp just look what happens with the small ones
If you catch a small one the bigger ones get very wary about taking the hookbait and only play with it
This is going on all the time and the biggest fish of the lake almost never get caught
So prebaiting, prebaiting fish a few times and prebait again
AND HOPE THE BIG ONE MAKES A MISTAKE!!!
The more the big one can eat and dont see other carp getting hooked the more likely its going to make that mistake
But it takes hard work and a lot of fishing hours to get to that point

This is also why I use big boilies to baitup and fish with
The small carp very soon finds out that they can not get this big lump to the back of their mouths so they just leave it for the bigger carp
The bigger carp are used to crack the real big mussels in the back of their mouths and dont see a negative effect because small ones dont bolt away in panic
So it becomes more easy to catch them but ofcours you get the dumb big ones first....some big fish are just stupid
Other big fish are not...its very hard but thats why specimen hunting is so great
If it was easy it would not be so great to do

FYI these videos are made from Jerome one of the past CAG presidents. Good stuff

very interesting video, I have never seen carp actually feeding before, they for the most part seem disinterested in the bait, it looks like corn on the hook.

this video goes to show you just how important rigs and bait presentation are

you guys need to watch the Korda underwater videos as well

Ive watched korda but its difficult to understand what they are saying sometimes with those accents, lol.

I am going to say that with a split ring or some tubing he would have hooked up much sooner

if you watch on the second one he dose use some tubing and hooks up the first fish

I see what your saying with the tubing Zach, but would shortening the hook link have the same effect?

no the problem is if you watch the bait gets sucked up and it turns away from the hook point at the hook gets caught between the hook and the hair by adding a moving ring IE a anti-eject rig it keeps the hook point at an angle so its much more likely to make contact with the fishes mouth. See my really poorly drawn illustration.

You foreigners need to learn English! LOL

Very informative videos

love the drawing zack

yes i have 1-6 on the underwater sets, very very good.

+1

Is the "anti-eject rig" the same as a "blow-back rig"?

yes pretty much one has some stiff rig on the hooklength over the eye of the hook making it bend but they both use the ring

So, can someone describe in detail a good, basic-but-effective carp rig? What type of hook, hook link material and length, heatshrink or not, rings, weight, safety clip, anti-tangle tubing or leadcore, etc. as needed for a blowback rig or other rig? I'm interested in knowing the details of a solid rig that can be used in most circumstances.

NICE VID

The problem is not the rig... its the bait!
Grains of corn have all the same size and weight So carp get used to sucking them up using the same power to suck them up
If there is a hookbait of corn it behaves different so carp gets wary
Use different size bait and weight and carp dont notice the hook and rig
Thanks for responding to the baiting pyramid guys it was great

Leo,
If that was the case then why once the rig was changed but the bait remained the same he got 2 hook ups on the next 2 fish that come along, our fish here never see corn this was filmed on the potomic river where there are *millions* of carp and maybe 30 guys that fish it go watch the video again and at 1:41 you can see the rig fails and it dose this over and over again had it had a ring on it or some tubing the hook up ratio would have gone WAY up. The fish here done even seem to mind that there is a line dropped striate down in there feeding zone they could careless since they are not scared of line I don't thing they have learned to feed on corn with out getting hooked

This was the question and you could clearly see that the free offerings where eaten without any problems
Josh did also did not ask about the tubing later on in the video
Its very easy if you see a video and act on it after all its a video and in real fishing you dont see all that you dont get an indication no runs no nothing just another night where you only get a small fish or no fish at all

I fish in a lake with 6 guys and nobody else is fishing it its 2500acres
4 guys are fishing corn with corn baits for a very long time more then 10yrs now
They catch a lot of small carp 10-15pounds with some 20-25pounders
They have a total score of 3 thirty pounders over all these years

Me and my mate rick we fish big boilies and do a lot of prebaiting if the fish is feeding well
We have a photo file of 3oo different fish that we have caught over the yrs between 25- 42 pounds
With more than half of them over 30pounds
And we never catch anything under 20pounds
We keep rigs very simple and it works we still are catching and catches are getting better every year
The other 4 guys have more and more problems to catch regardless what rigs they are using

so you are saying that the reason the carp was ejecting the hook bait with out getting hooked was because they, the carp have learned how to eat corn with out getting hooked because of fishing pressure and they ejected the bait with the rig because they knew it was a rig or feel threatened by it?

I say that they eat the hook bait with the same agressiveness as the free offerings I counted 7 takes in under 2:30, but it was simply not a efficient rig as you can see in the video the hair was pulled at a 90 degree angle away from the fulcrum of the hook point causing the point to either not twist in the fishes mouth towards the bottom lip or the hook to not enter the fish's mouth at all as seen at 0:45, 0:58, 1:41 (clearly shows the rig malfunctioning) 2:07 and 2:11 I counted at least 7 takes that didn't hook up in under 2:30 I would say that was pretty aggressive feeding and all of those takes but 1 was due to the rig not being effective...

At 4:00 the rig is switched from the one that was used at the beginning when all the fish where missed. After the Rig is switched you can see the effectiveness 5 hook-ups on six takes...then at 7:31 you can see that its back to the same rig type at the beginning where the hair is totally going the wrong way and the fish aren't able to get the bait in there mouths...7:55 is the perfect example of this you can see the rig is all jacked up and tied weird and the hook is not at a very aggressive angle when picked up by the fish....it dose finally work after the same fish made 3 attempts at eating it.
at 8:15 it picks back up with the the same rig from the last take it is the fox lead but the hair looks like it is still messed up watch 8:15- 8:30 you can see the bait is pointing away from the hook and it took 3 takes again to hook up...the last hook up shows the rig with the tubing again...

i feel these videos can do no justice...

just bc one video shows a hook up after 5 takes
and one shows a hook up after the first take

None of us watch our hook bait all the time and therefore can
never really know how many times its picked up and blown out

even if there are 300 videos on the internet about it
thats still nothing compared to how many lines are in
the water over a period of time trying to catch these
fish to justify this and that.

[quote=LoneStarCarper]so you are saying that the reason the carp was ejecting the hook bait with out getting hooked was because they, the carp have learned how to eat corn with out getting hooked because of fishing pressure and they ejected the bait with the rig because they knew it was a rig or feel threatened by it?

I never said enything about angling pressure its the other side in your case
Big carp are eating bigger food items like big swan mussels thats why they are bigger
Eating small items like corn is not naturel for them and if they eat it it becomes clear to them that the hookbait reacts different then the free offerings
You can only solve this problem by using different , bigger sizes of bait even different shapes boilies( flat ones)
Every time they have to suck harder or not so hard to get them in there mouth then its more likely if your going to catch them with a rig

what they do is help the angler understand what is going on with there rigs once they hit the water and how they behave...you can have the best rods, reels, pod, bait...what ever but if you do not tie good rigs that are efficient at hooking fish your just not going to catch...look at Big English for example

lol, yeah, i understand that definitely, as i have had trouble with the hair rig when i first started out, but after doing a few
different ties and messing around with it, i found what works for me. I was just saying i guess, these videos do no justice as to how many times a hook bait might be picked up and tossed back down before the hook up comes, bc that is something we can never really know.

Zach I agree 100% but a simple basic hair rig will do just fine
And if you have some problems just make the hooklink shorter or/and the hair longer
Thats ALL you need to do

Leo, that is exactly what i did

seems that once i shortened my hook length and made a bit longer hair, hook ups were more successful

just look at that video again crago and imagine the hais being 3/4inch long and the hook link shorter you could have caught them all
And you are right if your fishing you dont see all that you maybe have some twitches at the rod tip...you think it must be catfish
But you can learn from a video its just that everybody has a different explanation af all this trying to find out how to solve the problems take a long time BUT ITS STILL FUN!!

Having fun jesse

lol yes, its very fun and its cool to see how the carp feed!

hopefully jesse is on his way here! so we can wet a hook, doin a good session today,evening,night,morning! hopefully someone can pull in a 20 from my swim, be it carp or buffalo!

I think the problem was in the video the hair was to long and the suppleness of braid led to a ineffective rig where the hook point didn't get in the fishes mouth or when it did it wasn't situated at an angle to hook the carp...

I just tied up 2 rigs on the floor and took some photos to demonstrate what I mean, one is a rig that is a copy of the one in the video the other is one that I use that has a small ring attached both are very simple rigs...

My rig with the ring...


what it would look like (in theory) when it was inhaled by a fish notice the angle of the hook point...


what it dose during the blow back or when the carp exhales, the bait leaves and causes the hook to get the fish in the bottom lip.


now a rig to copy the one in the video


what it would look like during the take, if you look at 1:41 in the video you can see it looks just like this and eye of the hook keeps the bait from going in the fishes mouth.


and when the fish blows it back out the chances of hook up are very low hence all the pick up's with no fish in the video

I know what you mean zach the bottum one is no good because the hook turns the wrong way
BUT...you can have the same result if you just whip the hook knot 3/4 up the shank of the hook that way it wont turn and you dont need complecated rings they make the whole hook bait havier to ...dont you think?
And this is a pretty BIG bait so you DO select the bigger fish

Leo, I only catch the big fish

yes you can whip farther down the shaft but I like to have the entire hook able to get in the fishes mouth with half the shaft whipped you lose 1/3 of the hooking area it will work but I think it leads to shallow hook sets if that makes sense also with the ring the bait has the ability to revolve around the hook shaft and its much easier for the hook to turn in the fish's mouth and I think gives you a much more effective rig...with it whipped up the shaft the bait can turn the hook where as with the ring the bait revolves around the hook allowing it more range of motion to get a good "bite" inside the fishes mouth...I sort of confused myself but it still makes sense, I think...

I never make a short knot like that because the hook moves the wrong way it even tangles up the cast some times
The hook has to follow the bait the correct way in to the mouth and the lenghts of the hooklink finish the job
If you have doubts about not grabbing enough flesh just take a bigger hook it lands better in the fish its mouth where its better to hook in the bottum lip
I never worrie about the whippings making the shank thicker after all a lot of guys are using tubes over the knot and they dont have problems to

I normally run the line the other way but i was going to put shrink tubing over the eye and a small part of the hook to stiffen it up just a tad...but then I decided that I didn't want to boil water and it would also complicate things

I was real lucky to have a friend like kevin maddocks
He showed me a lot of stuff and showed me how to have fun doing stuff like making your own bait and tie your own rigs
Its all nice in theory but every lake needs adjusting a bit
Still feel real bad losing contact over the years

didn't he get busted for stealing carp from france or something? I have a early edition of carp fever....his idea of the sound of a bait hitting the water attracted fish on some venues so he would fish one baited rig with out any freebies but just throw rocks in the area that were the same size as his lead was brilliant...and it worked.

He bought withy pool and that water was known for small wild carp until he bought it
In 2-3yrs time the water was full with very big carp and catfish
They could never proof it was stolen ...but..
But he was a brillant angler there is no doubts
If you have a VERY early copy of carp fever my name is there as a good friend
But I knew him as the editor of the BCSG and I was the european repr of the BCSG so we became good friends

Brett Page 4 the rig I tied with the ring is very simple and easy to tie and I think its probably the most efficient at hooking fish with the least amount of fuss and it can be used with any type of bait. If you would like I can show you a simple way to tie the rig with a ring it takes the same amount of time or less then a standard hair-rig

Leo, to answer Josh's original question about the video... I am still going with the reason so many fish ate but did not get captured in that video was a poorly tied rig

I am going to go see what I can find in my copy of carp fever its in a tote down in the garage somewhere...

for everyone else, get on ebay or amazon and get carp fever its a very cool read and really a in site into the early days of carp fishing

Cool video none the less! Now I wanna go Fish!

Zach the ring rig seems to make a lot of sense, if you could post something showing how to construct the rig it would be awesome.

I will post photos in the morning

simple blow-back/anti-eject rig

start with this I am using snakeskin and a 3mm steel ring from prologic


strip off some of the plastic coating if you are using a product like snakeskin and tie your overhand loop like you do normally then slide the ring onto the line and tie another over hand knot to hold the ring in place like this


just slide the ring onto the hook and run the hook length through the eye


and snell the hook like you would a normal hair-rig a simple and easy anti-eject rig that should keep you from missing fish like in the video



its pretty simple it just looks more complicated...when I figured out that I could just tie the ring on the hair and stick the hook through it, it was like a ooohhh yeah moment...hope this helps

Thats awesome Zach thanks for posting the how to, im going to order some rings and tie up a few. Does it matter what kind of hook is used in the rig or will any carp hook work?

Any hook should work just fine

zach what keeps the ring from sliding up and down ?

I think the point is for it to slide Jesse, putting the hook in the best hook up position.

Yes Josh pretty much nailed it, the idea is that it dose move to allow the hook a great range of motion to get the point or fulcrum in the best spot to land it's self firmly in the fish's mouth. Its a very effective rig and easy to tie.

Leo, sorry if I sounded like a tool in this thread...you have years of experience on me and after re-reading your post I see what you are saying about the fish getting used to larger baits so they will be more apt to take a hook bait with extreme prejudice and it makes sense and something I have never thought of before, but in the video I am convinced that it was just a poor rig that kept the fish from being hooked....

Now after thinking on it when you are doing a baiting campaign do you add ingredients to your baits that make them heavier and then fish a more buoyant hook bait?

cool, i will have to give this rig a shot as well,

Zach, is this rig the most often rig you use for a given session, unless you feel a new rig is in order?

I have 2 ways of baiting up one for the river where I expect a lot of fish bream,chub and different size of carp

And I fish a recreation lake were I fish sinds a kid in this water I fish with just boilies 2 sizes 25mm and 30mm And some hand rolled sizes in between
Some of these boilies I dont roll at all I just lay big sausages on the rolling table and just push the 2 halves together
And mix all these different shapes and sizes together for baiting up
So carp have to use different suction power to get them in to there mouths
Its the same as they do in nature the mussels have different sizes to and they are not round

Now the river is totally different We bait up 100-200pound of soaked mais PLUS 50pounds of different sizes of boilies on top of that 3days before a long session
What happens then is on the first day you get a lot of fish on the bait and the bigger carp are dominating the smaller fish away
all that before you start fishing..

Then when we start its just topping of with big boilies for the rest of the week and it realy works ...FOR US!!!!

I can only share what happens here with us but I dont know what happens if you try this method in texas...BUT IT COULD WORK

hey grasshopper if it aint broke , dont fix it ...just saying ( i havent ever seen you get skunked before ,cough cough )

thanks josh for the info but i still cant imagine what you are saying , im the type that has to see something to understand it . the ring just seems plain useless to me . but thats me

leo i wish i had a mentor like you in dallas to learn everything from like your friend taught you

[quote=whiterockjesse][quote=Crago Jr Fights the big Fish]cool, i will have to give this rig a shot as well,

grasshopper if it aint broke , dont fix it ...just saying

JESSE this is the best way to see all problems
If your catching leave it like that!!
If you have problems make SMALL adjustments to either the hair or the hook lenght
I was surprised today crago got back...had a pb...first thing he said ..gonna try that rig!! WHY?
Sorry crago but its summer your catching like hell so why risk it all?

Thanks jesse but I can still be your mentor( And you guys mine because I know chit about texas)
My friend was in england and I was in holland and we BOTH learned a lot!

Yes this is the rig I use all of the time...works with pop-up's , mazie, fake corn, cork ball with dough bait packed around it.....everything

sounds good zach . im going to try it too since i have been blanking too much lately

yeah, i guess you guys are right, whatever im doing is working so no need to change it now huh! thanks for the pat on the back fellas!

o

and thanks for the jynx as well Jesse

haha jk

PSSST...jesse...MAYBE its the giant bait stopper And I gave you a great trick remember!

Guys about this video and the rig..at the end you can see another video...CARP LIVE! LONG HAIR
Look how the hair knot is tied..longer whipping down the shank
And it worked the hook follows the bait the correct way so catches are better..just saying...

My observation....

* The fish are eating the ground bait without concern. However, when it comes to the multiple kernals on the hair, they become concerned and eject it. This indicates to me that there are to many kernals of maize on the hair.

* The rig ejects to freely. Only when the fish picks up the hook bait, when the hook link is completely stretched to its fullest, does the fish get hooked. If there is any slack in the hook link the fish is able to eject the hook easily. This indicates to me that the rig is not as effective as it could be, and it would be better to have a shorter hook link.

* I should note at this point that its hard to be critical of someone that is catching fish. This fellow went through the trouble of filming this for us all to see and I feel kind of strange being critical of his good deeds. However, I think that we can always improve something and he made this video so that we can learn from it and improve.

* I think its also important to note that the fish were not put off, at all, by the line, lead, or tubing. All that stuff could have been bright pink and the fish would not have cared.

* In the second segment, when he reduced the number of kernals on the hair, the fish were put off a little less and it was a definite improvement. This indicates to me that a single piece of maize would have had the best result and would have been less of a concern for the fish.

* It is difficult to get a hook up when fish are ejecting the bait. I think it is best to have a bait on the hair that they want to eat so they don't eject it. However, if they do eject it a short shank hook on braided hooklink is the easiest thing in the world for a fish to eject. A long shank hook,reverse combi, or an extension of shrink tubing are a heck of a lot more difficult for a fish to eject and they have a much faster turn over. Turn over begins an inch away from the hook point rather than a half inch.

A lot of blow back rigs have stops on the curve of the hook. Some say that it isn't good because it stops hook penetration. Others say that you don't want to much hook penetration because you want the point firmly embedded in the flesh. Afterall there is not jaw bone to put a hook around. This is why so many professional anglers say that smaller hooks catch bigger fish because the hook point stays in the flesh for a stronger hold.

Personally, I match the hook size to the bait size. I am not going to use a size 8 hook if I have a range cube on the hair.

Bigger baits do cause fish to be careless. If they are feeding on range cubes, as opposed to kernals of maize, the fish is less likely to notice that it also picked up a hook.

I think of it more as analyzing what works or doesn't work more than being critical of the angler. I have used the same rig he used in the first segment, with the same results. Whipping the knotless knot further up the hook does indeed make a difference, as does adding the rig ring, I have not seen one method perform better than the other. The point is to get that hook turning immediately. I saw great results by just changing that fulcrum point as Zach said. The length of the hair made a difference as well though not as drastic a difference. I still like to get "riggy" from time to time just for kicks but that simple rig that Zach posted is my rig of choice. When I get lazy and just tie a rig without a ring, or without the additional turns on the knot I see my hookup ratio drop. Last trip at fork I was lazy and I was not hooking up as well as I should have been.

Mark,

Exactly. Getting fast turn over is the key. With only a hook the turn over begins at the eye. With a long shank the eye is farther away from the hook point, this is much faster turn over. The other benefit, of the long shank, is that it is more difficult to eject.

If one wants to speed up the turn over of a short shank they can add a rigid material extending from the eye a half inch, or so. This way turn over will begin as soon as the fulcrum reaches the rigid, rather than waiting for it to come across the eye.

Revisiting turn over; http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbt..._pa#Post3528861

Discuss....

Depending on what bait is used i say hooklink to long and hair to short

Yeah jason this was my main point its just that pellets are breaking down very quick this leads to bad fishing
Just when that big carp ore buffalo are about to take the bait you have to reel in because there is nothing left
With boilies you can just leave the bait there for 24hours and not disturb the fish

Wolfman,

You are right! Thats why you soak some of the cubes in oil. They break down very very slowly.

Jason it wil be a blast to have those big buffs on camera when they are feeding heavy at your playground at fork

well I just wanted to point out that it was whipped down the shaft and they fish still managed to mess it all up, IF there would have been a rig or some tubing on the shaft of that hook it would have been caught because it would not have turned and failed like it did ...the hook at that angle caught the fishes mouth and kept the rig from working.

I am going on the record now and saying I have never used a range cube as bait and don't ever plan to.

Yeah zach I see it now but this is a VERY strange angle and I am sure your rig would have made no difference at all

BLASPHEMY!

Leo, about to reply to the PM....

Love this stuff, its been awhile since we got all technical in the rough fish section....

My rig....as shown on page 4 would have work because this fish was feeding with out caution, the only reason it didn't get hooked was because of a lousy rig that when the take occurred it was so violent that it turned the hook on its and only the hair and bait entered its mouth and turned the hook on its side and prevented it from working.

imagine what the rig would have looked like if there would have been a rig ring at the base of the turn in the hook...its all theory but it would have drawn the hook point right to the carp's mouth....

Zach,

You may want to reconsider the range cube. I witnessed Donny catch his 60 with a cube. Al St Cyr has caught many big fish with cubes. He is the one that told me about soaking them in oil. Oh yeah, how could I forget, I caught a 70 on a cube. lol! It's hard to disagree with those results.

Donny's 65 lb 2 oz buff, it came on a single piece of maize.

Another bait to consider when fish are cautious, baits that float. They are much more difficult for fish to eject.

My rig....as shown on page 4 would have work because this fish was feeding with out caution, the only reason it didn't get hooked was because of a lousy rig that when the take occurred it was so violent that it turned the hook on its and only the hair and bait entered its mouth and turned the hook on its side and prevented it from working.

imagine what the rig would have looked like if there would have been a rig ring at the base of the turn in the hook...its all theory but it would have drawn the hook point right to the carp's mouth.... [/quote


LOL Zach if the carp realy like the bait because youve been baiting up...so the carp knows how tasty it is
Its no problem that he miss the bait the first time he grabs it he just turns around and grabs it AGAIN
You trust your rig and realy want to make it work....so it works
I have pretty good confidence in mine and it works to!!
As long as you know how a good rig work you can catch but I like to keep it simple and you like to experiment
There is nothing wrong with that ...BUT there are a lot of guys now experimenting with different baits and if they start experimenting with rigs at the same time they dont know what to do if something goes wrong!!!

Jason,

I have been and always will be a boilie guy, don't want to brag but when it comes to catching 30+ carp in Texas I have done pretty well, I don't have confidence in using cubes as bait...I have seen them work but they are not for me I prefer snow man or greedy pig rigs or if I am going small I use one single bit of fake maize that has been flavored and I hide that in a ball of method....

Leo,
I get the carp comics Euro carp mags (and thats what they are laughable for the most part,,,I see rigs in them with 14 steps on how to tie them...at that point someone some were is just trying to sell some noddy on a bunch of stuff they do not need) but I really belive that a ring or some tubing on the shaft of the hook gives the bait range of movement and allows the hook to find a perfect spot in the bottom lip....

Since when don't you want to brag, you self promoter! lol

not sure what you mean Richard....

I think there is a time for each. A range cube in fall/winter is deadly for buffs. But I catch les carp on them. In spring my results are better on boilies, heat of summer... tigers. These are all big fish tactics if you ask me. If I am after numbers I fish maize.

Bait is a whole other topic, but you will never see me hair rig a cube....for a number of reasons I am just out on that....I will stack 3 18mm boilies up and cast my rig out with a packing peanutt and know that its perfect on the lake bottom.....even soaked in oil after 45 minutes it would drive me mad wondering if I had any bait left....

We have a free to watch online video category: http://www.k-1baits.com/OnlineStore/

Some videos are a "How to" and others are simply for entertainment.