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#2351657 - 06/10/08 06:03 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: BigPoppa]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Del Rio, Texas
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So what will happen when oil gets to $200 per barrel and nobody can afford it. Will it continue to rise? How long can prices continue to rise while demand steadily falls before there is a market correction? That is the real question.
We have long wondered what the choking point is for America to reduce it's use of oil and I think that we have hit it. I night fish and use 10% of the gas I used to, Roger t is pulling his jonboat with his wife's Honda. People are driving more fuel efficient cars to work. Every month this country is using less and less petroleum in this country. Even people who have doubted that this is a bubble are starting to realize that this is getting rediculous. Because of oil prices many developing countries are letting their subsidies of gasoline expire and gas is no longer going to be dirt cheap in those countries.
Big Poppa.....the demand is going up (hence the price increase)..The U.S used to use say 60% of the world's oil. Now China and India are using the oil like we used to. World-wide demand is going up.....way up. As the demand rises so will prices. Like I said in an earlier post rent a movie called CRUDE AWAKENING you will be amazed at what's been happening for years. This didn't just happen overnight....I've been hearing about this coming on for years....not in the mainstream media though. Unfortunately our goverment hasn't done anything to really look for alternative energy sources or in developing our own........I can't imagine how bad this is going to get.....I hear alot of folks talking like this is only temporary.....I really believe we'll be looking back at 4$ a gallon for gas as the good old days.......gary
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#2351663 - 06/10/08 06:05 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: El Gringo (Gary)]
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Extreme Angler
Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 1878
Loc: Lewisville
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Well, other nations are having protests in the streets because their government subsidized gasoline is going up up up. Maybe a million man march on Washington would liven things up a bit?
This should have a simple solution, but I'm not sure what that solution is ...
_________________________
My other girlfriends name is Lady Zaida ... she'll make you say WAHOO!
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#2351887 - 06/10/08 07:27 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Zeek the Greek]
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Angler
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 453
Loc: Plano, TX
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It is true that India and China have increased their demand for oil. However, their increase in demand over the past few months has actually tailed off. And lets keep this in perspective. Combined, China and India, the world's two most populated countries use 9% of the global oil intake.
Developing countries that have subsidized gasoline prices have let those subsidies expire, and now the over pricing of oil is causing demand deterioration.
For every article or movie that states that we are about to run out of oil there is another that states that we are not. People have been talking about peak oil since the 70s.
As much as we want to lay this one at the feet of our government let me ask a question. How would we have reacted if the government was spending billions of dollars to develop alternate energy sources back when gas was 98 cents per gallon? No, we would have wanted them to throw money at whatever the problem was at the time. Would all of us (me included) run out and buy a hybrid when gas was that low?
When it comes down to it the free market is what will solve this problem. As gas goes up fuel efficient and alternative energy solutions become economically viable. That is the only way we will move in that direction. That is why Saudi Arabia is calling this conference. Have they ever shown interest in oil prices being too high in the past? Why would they want anything other than $200 per barrel oil? It is because they are seeing the writing on the wall about what is starting to happen to demand. We are still the 800 pound gorilla in the market and Saudi Arabia is scared that their biggest customer is starting to wean itself off their product.
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#2351933 - 06/10/08 07:37 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: BigPoppa]
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Angler
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 453
Loc: Plano, TX
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Let me add that the other day when oil spiked $11 per barrel in one day the principle reason was that Morgan Stanley came out and said that they think oil would reach $150 per barrel.
So oil prices didn't spike because Isreal attacked Iran, or an oil tanker sunk off the west coast. Oil didn't spike because a new report came out on how much oil demand had increased in China or India. Oil prices spiked nearly 10% because somebody said they thought oil prices would spike.
Don't misconstrue my comments about this. I hate paying this much for gas just as much as the rest of you. I just think that we are at least in a partial bubble.
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#2352028 - 06/10/08 08:00 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: chrisc/striper express guide service]
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Pro Angler
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 978
Loc: Frisco, TX, USA
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I for one have faith in free enterprise, just as BigPoppa does. Alternative energy sources will now become economically viable. It will take a while, no doubt, and it may be painful in the short-term, but we will all be better off in the long run. Everyone can take immediate steps to mitigate his/her own personal situation to reduce the impact of this. It cannot be totally eliminated if you buy anything from food to clothes, but it can be minimized. How? Drive smart and drive less. Move closer to work, slow down, get a more fuel efficient car, better yet, ride your bicycle to the store and to work (we could all use the exercise anyway), install a wind power generator or a photovoltaic generator, etc. All of these things will become more and more the norm as we move forward. Driving a boat at 70+MPH will become a thing of the past for most people.
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#2354396 - 06/10/08 07:08 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: rb7764]
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Angler
Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 311
Loc: Longview, Texas
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Price of gas is outragious, having to cut way back on fishing!!
_________________________
Joe Nolley
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#2354620 - 06/10/08 08:02 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: JNOLLEY]
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Green Horn
Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Plano, TX
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Wow this is quite an interesting discussion. I cannot remember who but someone above definitly hit on a significant point. For many years the the US has held (and quite frankly dominated) the world as the leading consumer of petrol products (across the board) not just fuel.
In addition, for years various think tank groups have predicted this "scenario" which is occuring today and subsequently, many companies have tried to produce "alternative" vehicles only to find themselves being sued in court for their patents by the likes of Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota. The big 3 specifically have owned the patents to the so called "hybrid" vehicle for 2 decades nopw, and it was only after Honda really began to experiment, and Toyota enticed several of Fords engineers that these even came to the markets attention. While the automotive giants cannot control the gas prices directly; they can certainly do so indirectly.
The second (and far more relevant problem) we have incurred was again "created" by us. Since the 70's big corporations have been "outsourcing" what many consider menial work to Asia and India which has been boosting their economy in an amazing way. In fact, all this "menial" work has swung the pendulum so far in the other direction that these countries now are the largest consumers of petroleum! All this outsourcing has allowed the people who who once rode bicycles to be able to afford cars. Now, we sit here in America with a look of disbelief as we "rattle our sabers" at the oil producing countries who once needed us, and they respond by raising the prices. These nations no longer view us with the same fear that we once had about boycotting...as for them, the future lies with the countries that have an even greater and somewhat insatiable need for petroleum.
As to those who feel our governement should do something...they will and have. Iraq was the first stage...and a tactical one at that as it created and staged a US Military presence in the middle east. Stage 2 is coming however, In my opinion I beleive it will take a bit longer yet...when the burden of gasoline cripples the way we live our lives everyday...the average American family will agree with whatever action is necessary to ensure that gas is attainable. What I find most ironic is that the majority of oil we have been drilling, pumping, and refining in America has been exported now for years...so our goverment has really been double dipping on us for years as well. Is the day coming (and probably very soon) where there is a heafty "luxury tax" on (our boats) and other petroleum consuming "non primary transportation" vehicles...you bet; as this will be an effort to help control the use of fuel by levying a tax so heavy that all but the wealthiest of people will not be able to afford it.
Can my family and I cut back? Yep, Can we stock up on goods and ammo? Already have. Is the day coming when gas becomes too expensive for those who already steal and car jack just to get drugs or for fun? Yep...What then??? Will they shoot my friend or family member just for the remaining 5 gallons of fuel in their Kia Rio? Sadly, this is not doom and gloom...because it is real...right now, and right here today, just watch the news one night.
We may not see it...but what about my daughters, your sons, and there kids?
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#2355115 - 06/11/08 04:45 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Whiskey Six5]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Del Rio, Texas
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Your really hit the nail on the head..........gary Wow this is quite an interesting discussion. I cannot remember who but someone above definitly hit on a significant point. For many years the the US has held (and quite frankly dominated) the world as the leading consumer of petrol products (across the board) not just fuel.
In addition, for years various think tank groups have predicted this "scenario" which is occuring today and subsequently, many companies have tried to produce "alternative" vehicles only to find themselves being sued in court for their patents by the likes of Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota. The big 3 specifically have owned the patents to the so called "hybrid" vehicle for 2 decades nopw, and it was only after Honda really began to experiment, and Toyota enticed several of Fords engineers that these even came to the markets attention. While the automotive giants cannot control the gas prices directly; they can certainly do so indirectly.
The second (and far more relevant problem) we have incurred was again "created" by us. Since the 70's big corporations have been "outsourcing" what many consider menial work to Asia and India which has been boosting their economy in an amazing way. In fact, all this "menial" work has swung the pendulum so far in the other direction that these countries now are the largest consumers of petroleum! All this outsourcing has allowed the people who who once rode bicycles to be able to afford cars. Now, we sit here in America with a look of disbelief as we "rattle our sabers" at the oil producing countries who once needed us, and they respond by raising the prices. These nations no longer view us with the same fear that we once had about boycotting...as for them, the future lies with the countries that have an even greater and somewhat insatiable need for petroleum.
As to those who feel our governement should do something...they will and have. Iraq was the first stage...and a tactical one at that as it created and staged a US Military presence in the middle east. Stage 2 is coming however, In my opinion I beleive it will take a bit longer yet...when the burden of gasoline cripples the way we live our lives everyday...the average American family will agree with whatever action is necessary to ensure that gas is attainable. What I find most ironic is that the majority of oil we have been drilling, pumping, and refining in America has been exported now for years...so our goverment has really been double dipping on us for years as well. Is the day coming (and probably very soon) where there is a heafty "luxury tax" on (our boats) and other petroleum consuming "non primary transportation" vehicles...you bet; as this will be an effort to help control the use of fuel by levying a tax so heavy that all but the wealthiest of people will not be able to afford it.
Can my family and I cut back? Yep, Can we stock up on goods and ammo? Already have. Is the day coming when gas becomes too expensive for those who already steal and car jack just to get drugs or for fun? Yep...What then??? Will they shoot my friend or family member just for the remaining 5 gallons of fuel in their Kia Rio? Sadly, this is not doom and gloom...because it is real...right now, and right here today, just watch the news one night.
We may not see it...but what about my daughters, your sons, and there kids?
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#2355132 - 06/11/08 04:52 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: rb7764]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Del Rio, Texas
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I for one have faith in free enterprise, just as BigPoppa does. Alternative energy sources will now become economically viable. It will take a while, no doubt, and it may be painful in the short-term, but we will all be better off in the long run. Everyone can take immediate steps to mitigate his/her own personal situation to reduce the impact of this. It cannot be totally eliminated if you buy anything from food to clothes, but it can be minimized. How? Drive smart and drive less. Move closer to work, slow down, get a more fuel efficient car, better yet, ride your bicycle to the store and to work (we could all use the exercise anyway), install a wind power generator or a photovoltaic generator, etc. All of these things will become more and more the norm as we move forward. Driving a boat at 70+MPH will become a thing of the past for most people. Free enterprize is great.....we just need to get them out of Washington D.C. The corporate giants run this country. Both sides are in the pocket of "big money". We need MAJOR CHANGE. gary
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#2355216 - 06/11/08 05:24 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: El Gringo (Gary)]
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Pro Angler
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 623
Loc: Schertz/Cibolo, TX
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The biggest problem is the speculators who are hedging the falling American dollar against the price of oil. The government should require a 50% down payment on contracts that anyone buys and require that they take delivery of at least 25% of the actual product. Currently, I believe the down payment is either 10% or 16% with no required delivery. This would curtail the number of speculators trying to make money on a staple.
_________________________
If people focused on important issues, there would be a shortage of fishing poles. My son-in-law proudly serves
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#2355294 - 06/11/08 05:56 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: rockiesfan57]
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Pro Angler
Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 700
Loc: Shady Shores
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The biggest problem is the speculators who are hedging the falling American dollar against the price of oil. The government should require a 50% down payment on contracts that anyone buys and require that they take delivery of at least 25% of the actual product. Currently, I believe the down payment is either 10% or 16% with no required delivery. This would curtail the number of speculators trying to make money on a staple. BINGO! It would also substantially reduce the amount that is covered on margin.
Edited by spiny norman (06/11/08 05:59 AM)
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#2355411 - 06/11/08 06:27 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: BigPoppa]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 52
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You make a number of EXCELLENT points! Worldwide energy demand is definitely a factor but not so big a factor as our own STUPIDITY!
The MAIN thing we need is an ENERGY POLICY which would allow us to do what we already know how to do and are not doing.
We need use nuclear power to generate the vast majority of our electricity instead of burning hydrocarbons to do that.
We need to quit fooling around with things that require high energy inputs for little return (using food sources to produce energy is a political boondoggle of the first order) and start working on things like shale oil and coal liquification development.
We need to drill for and refine our own oil.
If we did those things our energy problems would end very quickly!
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#2355481 - 06/11/08 06:49 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: rockiesfan57]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 44
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I would love to see the government release about half of the strategic petroleum reserve all at once. The speculators would be spanked severely!
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#2355560 - 06/11/08 07:09 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Bigun12]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Del Rio, Texas
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You make a number of EXCELLENT points! Worldwide energy demand is definitely a factor but not so big a factor as our own STUPIDITY!
The MAIN thing we need is an ENERGY POLICY which would allow us to do what we already know how to do and are not doing.
We need use nuclear power to generate the vast majority of our electricity instead of burning hydrocarbons to do that.
We need to quit fooling around with things that require high energy inputs for little return (using food sources to produce energy is a political boondoggle of the first order) and start working on things like shale oil and coal liquification development.
We need to drill for and refine our own oil.
If we did those things our energy problems would end very quickly! Isn't that the truth.....using 100 barrels of oil to produce 90 barrels of ethanol.......and the government is subsidizing that. I saw an interview where ethanol processing plant managers were joking about how futile this was. They said they always were in the red but that the goverment subsidies allowed them to make HUGE profits.
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#2355579 - 06/11/08 07:15 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: El Gringo (Gary)]
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Extreme Angler
Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 1878
Loc: Lewisville
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Here's a silver lining of high gas prices (there's been several):
Some bright boy in Carlsbad, CA has developed a car that runs on electricity and has a small gas motor as an onboard generator - the car never runs off the motor, just on the electricity it produces. Gets approximately 300mpg, holds 2 adults, 1 child and 3 surfboards. The car cost about $30K.
I would love to see this sort of thinking applied to a 1/2 ton or 3/4 truck that can pull a fishing boat. It can be done.
_________________________
My other girlfriends name is Lady Zaida ... she'll make you say WAHOO!
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#2355622 - 06/11/08 07:26 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Zeek the Greek]
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Angler
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 453
Loc: Plano, TX
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And there is the example of the free market. The government is in place to do what we can't do as a free society. We can respond to high gas prices.
While I agree on limits being imposed on speculation any other government tinkering with gas prices and our oil companies can't compete on a global scale. They already sell diesel to other countries because there are less restrictions. That is one of the reasons diesel is so expensive.
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#2355697 - 06/11/08 07:40 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Zeek the Greek]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Irving, Texas
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Voila! At last! I had to read every post here to find the first rational thought. I consider a rational thought as being fact generated. Slogging through all the blame game was tedious to the point that I seriously considered moving on. Then up jumped the voice of reason. Bigun12 submits for your consideration solutions based on facts. I realize that consideration of fact over emotion is a scary concept to you of liberal bent but be very scared because the seed has been planted by people like Bigun12 and nothing can stop it from growing. Your emotional reactions will be crushed by the weight of fact. Even your "Golden Goose" scam of "Global Warming" will peter out. It's already been factually debunked. I thank God for Bigun12 and the ever increasing numbers of level heads who are raising their voices against mass "Stupidity" There, I've vented. I'm gonna close my eyes and go fishing for a few minutes. Waiting for the weekend; J.B.
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#2355764 - 06/11/08 07:54 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Thespis]
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Pro Angler
Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 700
Loc: Shady Shores
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I would love to see the government release about half of the strategic petroleum reserve all at once. The speculators would be spanked severely! Unfortunatly this could cause a domino effect in an already unstable economy. A recession for sure and most likely a full blown depression. Much as I would like to see them spanked, it's better for everyone to let the air out of the bubble slowly. There is also a very real chance that your pension is invested oil derivatives.
Edited by spiny norman (06/11/08 11:51 AM)
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#2355882 - 06/11/08 08:15 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: J.B.]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 52
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"Your emotional reactions will be crushed by the weight of fact."
The sooner the better!
A great man once said:
"Those who would be ignorant and free want what never was and never will be!"
He was right!
Our government schools have produced exactly the result they were intended to produce.
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#2357452 - 06/11/08 03:27 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Fishspanker]
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Angler
Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 293
Loc: Humble Tx
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When I was in China 3 years ago they told me 1 in 50 chinese has a car. If you believe their demand can fuel the increase in gas price what happens if 10 in 50 have a car....$40 a gallon?
Speculation that's the driver....hopefully it goes the way of internet stocks......and tanks!
Edited by Fishspanker (06/11/08 03:29 PM)
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#2358006 - 06/11/08 07:06 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: J.B.]
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Outdoorsman
Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 165
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Voila! At last! I had to read every post here to find the first rational thought. I consider a rational thought as being fact generated. Slogging through all the blame game was tedious to the point that I seriously considered moving on. Then up jumped the voice of reason. Bigun12 submits for your consideration solutions based on facts. I realize that consideration of fact over emotion is a scary concept to you of liberal bent but be very scared because the seed has been planted by people like Bigun12 and nothing can stop it from growing. Your emotional reactions will be crushed by the weight of fact. Even your "Golden Goose" scam of "Global Warming" will peter out. It's already been factually debunked. I thank God for Bigun12 and the ever increasing numbers of level heads who are raising their voices against mass "Stupidity" There, I've vented. I'm gonna close my eyes and go fishing for a few minutes. Waiting for the weekend; J.B. OOOKKKKKAAAYYYY! Big gun has some interesting points. Yes, it is a bad idea to have a country who basically lives on corn to use it as an alterative fuel. Using shale oil would cost so much for refinement that fuel would be 10 bucks a gallon. The only issues with electricity is how do you get it... Burning coal? Global warming may be debunked, but it isn't the cleanest source of energy. There is still pollutants that get in the air, and water. Have you ever heard of ozone alerts or or smog alerts or even mercury. Nuclear energy ya, but where does all the waste go????? Perhaps it will end up in your back yard or your kids or grandkids backyard. Remember the fish from the simpsons. So far the cleanest forms of enrgy are from wind turbines and the SUN. Why not use something renewable that won't run out several years down the road. To me that seems logical. And we won't screw up this land for the next generation.
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#2358285 - 06/11/08 09:12 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Crumple Crome]
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Extreme Angler
Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 1267
Loc: Hill county
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First thing the next administration whoever it is need to do is create an energy policy that would eventually allow us to be independent. It is a fact that we are going to see at least $4 gas through 2009, very likely will be $5 a gallon by sometimes in july. People need to realize we are no longer the top dog economy, china is growing by leaps and bounds and will be the the largest economic power by as soon as 2010. We are in some tough times in the short term.
Edited by Bossbowman (06/11/08 09:14 PM)
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#2358350 - 06/11/08 10:32 PM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Fishspanker]
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Green Horn
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 8
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Dang...If I wasn't such a toothless, uneducated, fishin fool like most of my friends, I could afford to keep outsmartin' the fish and wastin' my life line in tow, instead of starin at my aquarium screensaver....$4 a gallon sure ain't e'nuff to drive me away from my favorite sport, outsmartin them little fishee's. Sure's a lot cheeper to just sit on my porch and shoot critters much smaller than myself. Don't take no brainpower at'tall. Now thats sport. Killin and catchin things dumber and smaller than me. I'm so proud to pay up for gas and support our Presidents war though I didn't vote for him and don't have blood on my hands for puttin him in office.
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#2359073 - 06/12/08 07:00 AM
Re: $4 Gas
[Re: Boney]
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TFF Guru
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 19321
Loc: Crandall, TX
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Boney, I with you on the Blood on my hands. Can't find too many that said they voted for "W" now.
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