Man, I started this topic just to find out if the rules had changed for us here locally, thats all. Didnt mean to start any arguments. But, Iv'e got a pair of boxing gloves if anyone would like to borrow them!! As for my stand on the subject, I like being able to keep a few snapper year round in state waters. Certain times of the year thats about all there is within 9 miles out, so they make it worth the trip. I'm glad to be from and live here in TEXAS.

Reel, just remember it's 9 NAUTICAL miles, not statute miles - and under no circumstances do you ever want to venture into Federal waters with State limits of red snapper in your vessel (just in case law enforcement decides to check out there).

Michial, example of flawed science. NMFS uses the growth and MSY (maximum sustainable yield) calcuation methods for salmon to estimate figures for red snapper! Two completely different animals with different reproduction, habitat, growth, etc, and NMFS treats them essentially as the same fish. How can you begin to think that NMFS has any good science behind it?

I'll trust Texas over NMFS on this, thanks - ego or no ego.

For anyone interested, 'Maximum Sustainable Yield' means 'how many fish can we catch without completely killing them off?'. It's based on the assumption that fish only have to live long enough to spawn once or twice & places more economic value on 100 two pound red snapper than on 20 ten pounders or 10 twenty pounders.

It would seem that Texas's methods for management would create a much more fragile environment then. If you only manage for one or two spawning and assume that they will be taken after that it would seem that one bad year or one bad environmental change that had a large kill off could destroy the populations quickly.

If you manage for larger fish you are naturally also managing for larger numbers of breeders to exist at any given time, making the species more resilient after a large number of deaths...

How does that make Texas's method better? Seems to me that the way Texas does it does nothing more than satisfy the sport fishermen of today without regard to consequences of unforeseen futures...

Wow Michael, I sure would hate to be on a 48 hour offshore trip with you! I'm sticking with my thoughts and beliefs that commercials are the red snapper culprit...I know that for a fact. Earlier in one of your posts, you said you went offshore fishing on a party boat and watched deckhands take fish to the back to fill up everyone's limit. That's their job. Once limits are posted...they quit. Evidently you haven't been on too many offshore trips. I've probably been on 50 party boat trips. I've yet to see one charter I've been on break the law in any form or fashion. Commercials do it every single time they are out there. I've seen it countless number of times.

P.S. Be sure and tell me when you going and on what boat...then I'll make plans to head in a different direction.

Umm,Cant you add? Four other nations plus our own flag plus the Stars and Stripes, adds up to Six I think unless you want to argue that as well.
I never said that TPWD has better science, just that they might...and What about Florida? Got an opinion about that state and it's citizens as well?
No comment of the NMFS and their limits in regards to Amberjack? NO? are you sure?, just more personal assumptions which only serve you.

We are here on this forum to help each other out in regards to fishing and yes to hear each others opinions on certain rules and regs. However, I do take it personal when someone makes it personal instead of politely stating their opinion.

So in the future, please refrain from making such personal statements which serve no purpose other than to be rude. As you said it is a demonstration of RESPECT, The U.S. offered RESPECT to our great State when we signed that Treaty. Try offering RESPECT to the other members of this forum.

I thought in Texas they had to be at least 17 years old unless you live on a compound in far West Texas. I could be wrong about this however.

Guys if your going to argue with MT then you'd better take your blood pressure medicine because he knows it all. Don't ya'll know that folks from up north are smarter than we are????
I think someone hit the nail on the head....if you don't like our state then leave. I think Brian burns made a song about it.
Here it is :
Welcome to Texas, glad that you came down,
you’ve got lots of friends here, take a look around.
They come from California, they come from Ohio,
they come from Minnesota to get out of the snow.

You don’t like our drivin’, you don’t like our roads,
you make fun of the way we talk, make fun of our clothes,
but you clog up our highways, been pourin’ in for years;
if you don’t like the way we do it, what are you doin’ here?

CHORUS:
Welcome to Texas, don’t anybody get me wrong;
we’re glad y’all came to see us, just don’t forget to go back home.

We don’t need your politics, we don’t need your prayers,
we don’t need your moral compass leadin’ us anywhere.
We don’t need your business, we don’t need your art,
we don’t really give a damn how you did things up north.

REPEAT CHORUS

You gripe about our music, gripe about our food,
gripe about the weather here, say it’s way too hot for you.
We hear all your whinin’, and it starts wearin’ thin
when we see our milk and honey runnin’ down your chin.

So come on down to Texas, have yourself a ball,
take the kids to Six Flags, and the wife out to the mall.
Have a good vacation, but then don’t hesitate
to point your car back up the road to that outbound interstate.

REPEAT CHORUS

NEXT SONG

I share his point of view.

Scooter,Scooter, Scooter....Shame on youfor lumping all northerners together. I'm from waaaay up north (montana) and I LOVE TEXAS. I spend my winters there.I'm sure not any smarter than most Texans, especially on this issue. I do believe that Texas has some strong anectdotal evidence that it's marine scientists know what they're doing. In the late 70's catching a 20"redfish was a big deal, now it's just an average fish. What makes the Federal Govt think they can manage the fisheries better than the states? Could it be their success with education? FAA? Agriculture?...and on and on and on.

All I know is that I miss eating FRESH snapper. See ya'll in December.

MTS, I didn't mean it like that but I do have to agree with Brian Burns song in one way. If all someone has to say is how he don't like how we do things here then he ought to pack up and leave. I am sure that in some of the North Eastern states where trotlining is illegal that they'd show you the door if you used one no matter how hard you argued that it was a good idea in Texas. THey don't care and we don't either.
I will say this however, I have worked in over 25 states and when you say you're from Texas then they automatically get a little stand off-ish. I don't know why. I have not been to Montana and I really doubt it if folks from up that way would ever be that way at all.
Hurry up and get down here...just be nice (which I am sure you are)!

Hey Michael, Yankee-country just called........
they want the other half of their brain back!
HA!
See, I can be just as immature as you. look at me, aint I cool?

Scooter G..

Back in the USSR would be a better song for Mikial .. eh Komrad??

Scooter, I don't think there's all that many people in Montana anyways, so it's most likely easier for them to be friendly.

We only have a million people in our entire state! Almost all are very friendly. We still wave at each other as we pass on the road. People will stop and help if you break down. When a man gives his word he's expected to stand by it. Deals are still sealed with a handshake.We are self reliant and work for our living. Govt handouts are shameful to most of us. Hmmm sounds like a lot of Texans I know.

thanks to Mr Mojo Risin' for sayin'it straight!
-B

MTS, That's just the way I figured it. Texas "used to be" that way and it still is in alot of places...especially out west.
I was in Kerrville about 5 years ago and ate at Chili's on the River (Gruadalupe). It was in early March. Brian lives in Kerrville and he showed up and played/picked for a couple of hours. He sang that song from a request but didn't realize that another table had about 15 snowbirds that had been staying in Fredericksburg. They all got pissed and left the restruant.Gotta love it.
The only reason I brought it up in the first place is because Michial Thompson (who hails from Iowa I think) really wants all of us to believe that all (not just Snapper) fish are in danger of recreational fishermen. We have all had it out on the catfish section.
Got Ya Bazz!!!YESSIR!

MTS..
We had a couple of Montana Gents on our last TFF Tuna Trip with Deep Sea Headquarters out of Port "A".. I loaned them some Tuna Tackle and they had a blast.

Fine Folks as far as We're concerned

Bazz

Heck, I guess I'm out on this discussion...it went from snapper regs. to Montana and now the Tuna Twist Charter...dang I need to make one before diesel hits $20/gallon!!

I can't phathom WHY the feds/NMFS has allowed the Commercial Snapper folks to take red snapper from 13" up and we still get the short end of the stick with 16" red snapper and only 2 fish.

The sheer numbers of undersized red snapper being tossed back because of not being of legal minimal length for recreational anglers is astounding and they are eaten by sharks, porpoises and king mackerel. Now, tell me WHY the first 4, when it was 4 and now 2 red snapper caught is your limit instead of still trying to catch the lacking legal length fish. Sure, you could not have any culling regardless of how soon the fish was aboard and once everyone has their daily limit, go focus on other species. There would be no waste and the party boat customers and crew would both be happy to take fish back.

I have seen way too much and listened to both sides or several sides, commercial boys, NMFS, TAMU Federal Marine Biologist (didn't have a clue on the mortality of commercially caught snapper), party boat captains (were shocked) on the stats the commercial boys revealed and wouldn't you know, the NMFS representative didn't comment except for, "That will happen"...hmmm, and WHO is our Big Brother?

Michael,
do you not read correctly
"Michial, example of flawed science. NMFS uses the growth and MSY (maximum sustainable yield) calcuation methods for salmon to estimate figures for red snapper! Two completely different animals with different reproduction, habitat, growth, etc, and NMFS treats them essentially as the same fish. How can you begin to think that NMFS has any good science behind it?"
For anyone interested, 'Maximum Sustainable Yield' means 'how many fish can we catch without completely killing them off?'. It's based on the assumption that fish only have to live long enough to spawn once or twice

and your response was....................
"It would seem that Texas's methods for management would create a much more fragile environment then. If you only manage for one or two spawning and assume that they will be taken after that it would seem that one bad year or one bad environmental change that had a large kill off could destroy the populations quickly."

Now WHO manages for one or two spawning seasons????????
Please, if you are going to bash the TP&W with no factual evidence, and someone gives you some.......at least attempt to read it correctly and decipher it correctly to prove your point instead of proving ours for us. We do a pretty good job of it already.

The commercial fishermen can destroy a species far quicker than individuals. I do not believe any commercially harvested species of fish has become endangered due to sportsfishermen, but by commercial fishermen.

Harvey, yes you got the essence of my post - the NMFS is only concerned about keeping enough breeders around to produce keepers for next year and the year after that. Honestly not sure what - if any - plan Texas has, but from dealing with some of the TPWD biologists, I know they prefer to see lots of older fish around to crank out more eggs (the same applies for most longer lived species).

This problen should have such a simple solution. It really should. It's called 'enforcement of our existing laws'. Nab poachers and make the punishment so severe that they can't afford to go out again.

Absolutely!!! I'll second that one!!

Many of the commercial guys don't keep anything under about 16" because they can't get anything for the smaller fish at market.....sounds good on paper to reduce bycatch but in reality it doesn't help because the market won't support it. Not much meat on a 13" snapper.

How many commercial snapper boats have you seen when they off-load their catch? I've seen more than my share from the early 80's; and now they are hammering the 13" and up red snapper, especially this year since the feds allowed them to take smaller fish for minimum length. They'll take whatever the minimum size is legal to sell.

Blameing the commercial guys is just passing the buck. I'm tired of hearing people cry "it's no my fault it's someone elses."

the above was a reply from someone else on this topic and this is what i have said from the start. we all need to work together! until then, its going to be the same old BS! should it matter to me? not really, because i have the best of both worlds when it comes to snapper fishing. does that make me a bad boy? should i go to timeout/the corner because i comm fish sometimes? i have and will always say the samething on this topic. until we all unite, it will be the same old [censored]! someone has to put the snapper on the table to feed the guess that keep the restarunts open. remember the next time you want a snapper dinner when you take your family out to dinner that have came in from the other side of the world to visit and they have heard that a snapper dinner is the best thing they could eat. make damn sure that you don't order it! thats a start, ain't it? better yet, why not just cut off all snapper fishing? there are many of snapper out there. go after the srimp boats! they are the ones killing all the baby snappers. the comm snapper boats don't kill 1/4 of what the srimpers do. now, if anyone would like to beat me up for what i said, go ahead. its not going to change the fact that you will still only be able to get 2 snapper the next time you go out. lets all ban together,comms and recs and we CAN do something with this problem! until then, QUIT crying